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Where's God?

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ISteveB

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I am not there. Why do you ask?
simple enough.... you posted the picture. I figured it was your picture since you posted it, so you had a specific idea in mind.

As I am a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor, what would you say if I told you that's me on the operating table that all those medical staff are gathered around, and I know exactly where God is in that picture?
 
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doubtingmerle

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simple enough.... you posted the picture. I figured it was your picture since you posted it, so you had a specific idea in mind.

As I am a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor, what would you say if I told you that's me on the operating table that all those medical staff are gathered around, and I know exactly where God is in that picture?
first I would say I am glad you are a survivor, and second, I would ask you where God is in this picture.
 
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ISteveB

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first I would say I am glad you are a survivor,
Thank you. I am too!

and second, I would ask you where God is in this picture.
Breathing clarity of mind, and thought so the medical staff can focus on their jobs, without being distracted, or losing focus.
Hearing the prayers his people who are praying for them and the patient on the table.

And exactly where he's always been.

Inhabiting eternity. Isaiah 57:15
 
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Halbhh

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Your life is short also. What will you say when you stand before A!!ah or Thor or Buddah or whoever it is that is in charge?
This temporary life is indeed quite short, but there is a Life eternal.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Hitler believed that gays were an abomination.
Christians believe that gays are an abomination.
Homosexuality is a Sin an Abomination in the Eyes of God
"Men having sex with each other is an abomination and condemned by God. Women having sex with each other is also an abomination and condemned by God. This isn’t new news, it’s not like all of sudden Christians have come on the scene proclaiming sodomy is a immoral act and a sin in eyes of God."
You say you love gay people. But gay people probably wouldn't call what they feel coming from you "love".
No, homosexual behavior is an abomination in the eyes of God but having those desires or any sinful desires and repenting of them and any behavior associated with it will give you eternal life. For Hitler being gay basically meant you should be executed irrespective if you repented. Many reformed homosexuals have been good Christians, some even possibly leaders in the church. Paul says as much in his writings. Huge difference. Actually there is some evidence though that many butch homosexuals were involved in the Nazi Party.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Uh-huh.
Let me tell you what this looks like from an atheist position.
We have lots of religions. Most of them say some variation of this: believe in me, and I will be able to save you from a horrible fate.
How are we to know the truth?
A shame that God wants us to know the truth - but doesn't want us to know it so badly that He's willing to prove it to us.
There is large amounts of historical, scientific, and philosophical evidence for Christianity, very little such evidence exists for other religions or even atheism.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Suppose I was to start a new religion. My sales pitch could be, "I love you and I can save you from a horrible fate, all you have to do is let me take control of your life (fine print: this includes giving me 10% of your salary and spending your evenings writing about me on the Internet) and if you do you will have an abundant life in this world and a life beyond your wildest dreams in the next."

Think that will work? Can I sign you up?
No, because I was convinced by the evidence for Christianity not just what it promised. Christianity explains reality better than any other belief system with more evidence backing it than any other belief system.
 
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There is large amounts of historical, scientific, and philosophical evidence for Christianity, very little such evidence exists for other religions or even atheism.
There are such small amounts of historical, scientific and philosophical evidence for Christianity, just as there is very little for any other religion.
I would say there's plenty of evidence for atheism, except that atheism doesn't need evidence. All it needs is to point out all the mistakes in the arguments that people of other religions use.
And by the way, fact that you don't understand what atheism actually is (as evidenced by your saying that "small amounts of evidence exist for it") is already showing the weaknesses of your arguments.
 
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doubtingmerle

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This temporary life is indeed quite short, but there is a Life eternal.
How can that be? When we die, our brain ceases to function.
 
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doubtingmerle

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There is large amounts of historical, scientific, and philosophical evidence for Christianity, very little such evidence exists for other religions or even atheism.
Provided, of course, that you assume the Bible is flawless. But after you look at the flaws in that book, what is left?
 
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doubtingmerle

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Breathing clarity of mind, and thought so the medical staff can focus on their jobs, without being distracted, or losing focus.
One would think that, if God is all powerful, he would be able to do more than breathe clarity of mind into a medical staff.

Does this clarity of mind exist in all medical staff always?

If it is in all medical staff always then how do you know it is God doing the breathing?

And if this clarity exists only under certain conditions, do you think a double blind scientific test would be able to verify this claim?
 
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What use are all your rhetorical tricks and sleights of hand when you are only mortal, and life is short? What use is it if you think you won a battle, even?

Where are you going, and is it better than yesterday?
Thank you. It's not often you find a Christian who is brave and honest enough to admit that they lost the debate.
What use is it to win? Well, we are on a debating forum. Winning arguments is kind of the point. We are specifically invited here to present challenges to the Christians faith. It's what this forum was made for.
As to where I am going, it's to bed in a couple of hours. Why do you ask?
 
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Halbhh

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How can that be? When we die, our brain ceases to function.
I think of it this way--
If God doesn't exist then (using the basic belief of 'naturalism') of course any trace of self fades as the neurons die after the heart stops, which takes time, that process starting after some time measured in minutes, but continuing for quite a while --
e.g. -- 30 minutes of neural activity, one might guess of various changing characteristics -- Electroencephalographic Recordings During Withdrawal of Life-Sustaining Therapy Until 30 Minutes After Declaration of Death - PubMed

On the other hand when God exists, neural death isn't an issue -- He could transfer one's essential consciousness/self into some new state, and so on.

Having spent more than a few years thinking on it from different angles long ago, and since occasionally, I know of no way to prove or disprove that God exists prior to meeting all of His requirements to find Him. But it is good that one could rule out some certain very simplistic and incompetent versions of God though, such as the invented assumptions used in young earth creationism, where God would be (in that wrong assumption used) somehow limited by time duration and such, as if time controlled Him, instead of the other way around.

I recommend to skeptical people they merely try out the instructions of living Jesus taught, and find out how they work out in one's own life, for self benefit. That's a win-win in that it doesn't rely on believing in God first, but merely wanting a good life, here and now. Once you find out how well something works, then one is better able to understand why Jesus is respected across all generations, and any cultural boundary.
 
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Halbhh

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Thank you. It's not often you find a Christian who is brave and honest enough to admit that they lost the debate.
What use it it to win? Well, we are on a debating forum. Winning arguments is kind of the point. We are specifically invited here to present challenges to the Christians faith. It's what this forum was made for.
As t where I am going, it's to bed in a couple of hours. Why do you ask?
If you imagine you won a 'debate' (which I didn't even engage in...) then you have harmed yourself again. It's not a win-lose situation at all. Either each person wins, together, or loses, together.

I did refrain from shooting down your argument because it's not really what you need in my best guess. You don't need endless debate. It's killing you.
 
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ISteveB

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One would think that, if God is all powerful, he would be able to do more than breathe clarity of mind into a medical staff.

one would think.....

Sounds like what we call-- preconceived notions, confirmation bias, and presuppositions.
God tells us in Isaiah 55, that his thoughts are not our thoughts. Nor are his ways our ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are his ways, and his thoughts higher than our own.


God gave the human race dominion over the planet. the first humans told God where to go, and turned away from him. So.... what did you think would happen when God was kicked to the curb?
Do you think he'd become a petty tyrant, and take it all back without being invited?
God is a gentleman. He did it the old fashioned way.... by demonstrating his love for us by giving us his son, who died to pay for our destructive ways, and win us through demonstrative love.


Does this clarity of mind exist in all medical staff always?
I have no idea. I'm not involved in all medical staff's lives, and endeavors. I had 6 cancer surgeries, and am still alive after 33 years of living with, instead of dying from, my cancer.

I do however had a novel thought....

Why don't you go ask God himself.
as I read it in Isaiah 1:18, Isaiah 41:1, and Isaiah 41:21, God invites all comers to present their strong case, and arguments to God, for themselves.

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.

“Keep silence before Me, O coastlands,
And let the people renew their strength!
Let them come near, then let them speak;
Let us come near together for judgment.

“Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.

So.... come.... talk to Him for yourself.
He's clearly sent the invitation.

If it is in all medical staff always then how do you know it is God doing the breathing?
see above.

And if this clarity exists only under certain conditions, do you think a double blind scientific test would be able to verify this claim?

You're more than welcome to initiate such a double-blind study and find out for yourself.
 
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doubtingmerle

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On the other hand when God exists, neural death isn't an issue -- He could transfer one's essential consciousness/self into some new state, and so on.
But the "essential consciousness/self" is gone. All our memories, emotions, and thoughts are a function of the brain. If the brain is dead, it cannot produce these any more.

But what if God made a copy of your brain to live forever? What you would then have is a copy of you, not you.

Why stop with one copy? He could then make millions of copies of you. Why should you care what happens to all those millions of copies of you?

I find it odd that God would make a living copy of a dead man for no reason but to torture that copy for all eternity. What did the copy do to deserve that? Why not just write that man off as dead?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed, your reply misses the mark so many times, I really wonder what you are thinking.

ed: Avalanches are not more complex than pebbles falling, they are just a larger version of the same basic thing.

ia: This is one of the more sensible things you said. But in fact, avalanches are larger and more complex versions of the same thing. An avalanche has many more moving parts than a few pebbles falling, or a few enormous boulders. In fact, it may surprise you that scientists are finding that avalanches are a lot more complex than they had expected.
Avalanches and pebbles are just rocks acting on gravitational forces, how is that complex? There is no information produced or complex sequences of causes and effects.

ed; But you have to have intelligent input to overcome entropy.

ia: Nonsense. Who told you that?
Ok provide an example of overcoming entropy without using living things because that would be assuming what we are trying to prove.

ed: And going from single cell to a personal being is a huge reduction in entropy.

ia: Yes. It is. And it's happening all over the world, all the time.
Ok provide an empirically observed example of that occurring.

ed: And it has been empirically observed throughout human history.

ia: Uh - what has?
Persons producing the personal.

ed: Also, purposes exist in the universe such eyes for seeing and ears for hearing.

ia: Yes. They do. Eyes and ears are a product of evolution. I'm not talking with a creationist, am I?

At this point I am not talking about the process by which purposes are created, but rather the ultimate cause of purposes.

ed: Purposes can only come from personal beings.

ia: Nonsense.
Ok provide an example of a purpose for something coming from an impersonal cause. You cant use living things, because that would be assuming what we are trying to prove.

ed: Provide an empirical example of impersonal processes producing the personal.

ia: I did. Evolution producing humans.
See above about the ultimate cause of the personal.

ed: It means the cause is not part of the effect, ie the physical universe. The evidence is logical reasoning.

ia: Again:
First, what does it mean for something to be "outside" of the universe? Have we any evidence that such a thing is possible?
Something can logically be ontologically transcendent to something else. So it is with God and the universe.

ed: I am just doing what scientists do every day.
Is that what you imagine you're doing?

ia: No. You're not. You're beginning with your own particular choice of deity and attempting to put his square peg in a round hole.
Send your thoughts off to some real scientists and ask them if they think you're doing what they do every day. They'll be happy to set you straight.
So you dont believe that scientists study effects and their characteristics to determine the cause of those effects? If you dont believe that, then you dont know much about science.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: I was not referring oto the character of the common people

ia: Yes, you were. You said, "most atheists do not live consistent with their worldview especially in nations influenced by Chrstianity." That means, most atheists, not just the leaders of a country of some billion or so atheists. And you were right to do so. By your logic, an atheist should be an evil person. Obviously, they're not. Therefore, your logic is at fault.
The leaders of atheistic and humanistic nations tend to be evil because they tend to live consistently with their atheistic philosophies because they dont have governmental constraints on them like the common people. Also, because humans are naturally religious many dont go along with their leaders philosophies.

ed:I was referring to how the government is run based on atheistic philosophies.

ia: Please explain to me what an atheistic philosophy is. I had always thought there was no such thing as an atheistic philosophy, since a-theism means nothing more than a person who is lacking a belief in a God or gods.

Communism, fascism, and secular humanism are atheistic philosophies because their laws are based on human thinking, not the laws of God or gods.

ia: It might help if you tried thinking of "theistic philosophy." It doesn't really mean anything, does it? A theist could be a Satanist, a Christian of many different types, a believer in the Greek or Norse or Celtic gods - anything at all, really. If all we knew was that their philosophy was a theistic one, we would still know nothing about it apart from that it included a belief in a god or gods.

See my explanation above.

ed: The US has never imprisoned or executed people for their political views. Harvested prisoners organs, forced people to abort their children, put people in concentration camps for their religious beliefs, and among many other things. All of these China does and are characteristics of a hell hole country. Sorry if it offends you.

ia: I'm not offended in the slightest. But I hope I don't offend you if I remind you that the USA is guilty, throughout it's rather short history, of enslaving races, committing genocide against black people, institutionalising racism, warmongering, locking children in cages, and electing a liar of appalling moral character who has changed the USA into...well, a hell-hole.
Most of what I was referring to regarding China has occurred in the last 30 years. The US has not had slaves in 150 years. And genocide was never committed against blacks or even native Americans' in any real sense it was just a series of wars that they mostly lost due to the superior technology of the Americans. Not sure what warmongering you are referring to. Locking children in cages in recent times was to protect them from being sex trafficked and locked in jails with their parents and the so called cages had TVs and video games and they could come out and play soccer if they wanted. The present US prior to the corona virus had the best economy in the world, among the lowest rates of unemployment for minorities in US history and more freedom than any nation on the planet.

ed: No, not consistent with their basic nature but consistent with their worldview.

ia: Duly noted and revised:
You're saying that atheists, when not influenced by the social benefits of a Christian culture, live consistently with their atheistic worldview and produce hellholes. Anyone who knows atheists knows this is simply nonsense.
Fraid so, see above.
 
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If you imagine you won a 'debate' (which I didn't even engage in...) then you have harmed yourself again. It's not a win-lose situation at all. Either each person wins, together, or loses, together.
Sorry, Halbhh, but that's not actually how it works. You believe one thing; I believe another. We cannot both be right. We could both be wrong, of course, which could mean that we both lose (or, perhaps, "win" - but it's also entirely possible that I am shown to be right and you are shown to be wrong.
In which case, I very much hope you will feel that you have won knowledge, you have gained a more enlightened view of the world, and you know something you did not know before.
But in cold fact, you will have lost the argument.
I did refrain from shooting down your argument because it's not really what you need in my best guess. You don't need endless debate. It's killing you.
Thank you for your concern. Please, don't worry. I'm fine. I encourage you to shoot my argument down in flames if you feel you are able.
Remember:
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."
Good luck!
 
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Avalanches and pebbles are just rocks acting on gravitational forces, how is that complex? There is no information produced or complex sequences of causes and effects.
Of course avalanches are more complex than a few rocks falling. They have many more parts, they interacts in vastly more complicated ways, and scientists are finding out they are much more complex than they had thought.
More than that, just think about what you're saying. Complex effects cannot come from simple causes? Why not? What's to stop them? A simple cause sets a chain of events in motion, the chain spreads, affecting multiple avenues simultaneously, producing an effect enormously more complicated than the simple trigger that put it in motion. This describes an avalanche, the process of evolution, and many other examples where complex effects can come from simple causes.
Ok provide an example of overcoming entropy without using living things because that would be assuming what we are trying to prove.
Okay. The sun puts out vast amounts of energy. This energy is collected by living things on the earth. They use this energy to overcome entropy.
Reminds me of the long-time favourite joke on Fundies Say the Darndest Things: a particularly obvious case of the misunderstanding the laws of thermodynamics: "The earth is a closed system. It should have run out of energy long ago. UNLESS there was some huge outside source of energy enabling life to keep going. And I think we'd notice if there were something like that!"
(Just in case you didn't get the joke, he forgot about the sun).
Ok provide an empirically observed example of that occurring.
Sure. Easy.
You said: "And going from single cell to a personal being is a huge reduction in entropy."
I pointed out it's happening all the time. I started my existence - if you can call it "my existence" at that stage - as a single-celled organism. So did you. So did every living thing.
Persons producing the personal.
Depends what you mean by "produced". Yes, we all emerged from our mother's bodies at birth. So in that sense, we were "produced" by personal beings. But they didn't create us using their personal qualities. We were created entirely impersonally, as a result of chemical chain reactions that evolved over billions of years.
So when you say there has never been a case of a person being produced without a person, you're wrong. Nobody has ever been produced by a person - and nor will they be, not until the first artificial life form is invented.
Evolution is quite capable of accounting for the existence of intelligent life on our world. Your "personal must be produced by personal" argument is nonsense.
At this point I am not talking about the process by which purposes are created, but rather the ultimate cause of purposes.
Something can logically be ontologically transcendent to something else. So it is with God and the universe.
Yeah? Prove it.
So you dont believe that scientists study effects and their characteristics to determine the cause of those effects? If you dont believe that, then you dont know much about science.
Sure I believe that's what they do. It's just, that's not in the slightest what you're doing. You're just, well, making things up.
 
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