Why do people hate easy believism?

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe it's part of the Christian faith in the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines, yet faith in Christ unto salvation is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and obedience which "follows" and is produced "out of" faith (fruit of faith) is "works" and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). You basically teach that faith "is" obedience/works.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. *NEVER lose sight of that!

So you are saying faith "is" never looking at a woman lustfully and if one has ever looked at a woman with lust is in heart, he does not have faith and won't be saved? How many people can honestly say they have NEVER had a lustful thought? Thank God for the blood of Christ or else NOBODY would be saved! You might as well just say faith "is" never sinning at all and faith "is" works, because that is basically what you are teaching -- "performance based works salvation."

You seem to be using the words of Jesus here to teach salvation by works and/or sinless perfection. Often we see Jesus' teachings in the 4 gospel accounts in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes, calling them out on their hypocrisy. You should not read sinless perfection and works salvation into His teachings.

What makes no sense is Jesus going to the cross to save sinless people.

Take note that Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who practice such things (list of sins in Galatians 5:19-21) will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

When all else fails play the straw man card.

I have read the Parable of the Talents numerous times and those who teach salvation by works and eternal IN-security commonly cite this parable as an alleged proof text for their doctrine.

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer. He obviously had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

*The children of Israel were called "servants" but they were not all saved.*

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..

You probably do not remember it, but I already told you several times on the forums before that I do not believe Sinless Perfection deals exclusively with putting away mortal (or grievous) sin. I believe Sinless Perfection deals primarily with putting away sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. Thus, Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue. Sins not unto death would be minor faults of character, or disobeying the command to leap for joy when others speak falsely against us. Overcoming these kinds of sins is Sinless Perfection.

The Bible tells us specifically what sins can condemns a person (even though you ignore that truth in Scripture). Believers have to overcome sins like murder, hate, idolatry, adultery, theft, not loving God, and not loving others, etc.; So the believer has to meet a bare minimum level requirement of holiness. For Hebrews 12:14 says to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. You don't believe in following after holiness deals with not seeing the Lord. In other words, I already put forth verses that refute your belief already. Arguing back and forth with you will not help you. Those who want to simply read the Bible and believe it will see the verses that I put forth to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God will punish you if you turn God's grace into a licence to sin. You would still go to heaven but you would ruin your life here on earth if you just deliberately lived in sin after being saved.

This is just simply not true. One loses their salvation if they justify sin. It's practically on every page of your own Bible. In fact, this truth is even more clear in the KJB that you hold so dear (like myself). For I am also KJB. The difference between us is that you are not reading and accepting what the Word is plainly saying. Example: How do you understand the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30? Jesus essentially said that looking upon a woman in lust can potentially cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire. I do not see Jesus saying that this guy will just lose rewards or that their life on earth will be hell only. I see them being cast into hell fire because that is what Jesus said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God will punish you if you turn God's grace into a licence to sin. You would still go to heaven but you would ruin your life here on earth if you just deliberately lived in sin after being saved.

Another problem with this belief is that it makes light of the reality of the punishment of sin. The wages of sin is death, and not chastisement. Chastisement is only for those in whom God knows in who will live faithfully again in this life after they messed up. To have the mindset that one can sin and still be saved is not of God (1 John 3:10). For God cannot agree with sin. God would have to agree with our mindset to sin if He was saving us despite our sins. But God is holy and good, and He will not justify man's sins.

I mean, have you ever read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 before?
It does not sound like these kind of believers are saved.

 

[Danthemailman]

You probably do not remember it, but I already told you several times on the forums before that I do not believe Sinless Perfection deals exclusively with putting away mortal (or grievous) sin. I believe Sinless Perfection deals primarily with putting away sins that do not lead unto spiritual death.

Is 1 John 5:16 referring to spiritual death or physical death? Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins (grievous, mortal sins as you and Roman Catholics would call them) that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Thus, Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue. This would be minor faults of character, or disobeying the command to leap for joy when others speak falsely against us.

You seem to be peddling sinless perfection. About all you talk about is sinning and losing salvation.

That said, the Bible tells us specifically what sins can condemns a person (even though you ignore that truth in Scripture).

You ignore the truth that it's the unrighteousness who practice sin and not those who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9)

Believers have to overcome sins like murder, hate, idolatry, adultery, theft, not loving God, and not loving others, etc; So the believer has to meet a bare minimum level requirement of holiness.

The believer has to meet a bare minimum level requirement of holiness? Does God grade on a curve? What is the passing grade?

For Hebrews 12:14 says to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. You don't believe in following after holiness deals with not seeing the Lord.

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification, yet even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God.. and the ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God..

In other words, I already put forth verses that refute your belief already. Arguing back and forth with you will not help you. Those who want to simply read the Bible and believe it will see the verses that I put forth to you.

You have not refuted my beliefs (except in your own mind) and no amount of arguing will get you to change your mind. Those who are truly seeking the truth will find the truth in scripture regardless.

 

[Junia]

People dont understand the meaning of the law, and how guilty that make us hell. There two steps for salvation, admit that you are sinner and believe in the lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. They dont dont finish the first step. The law is like a snake that pretends to give life but it only bites you. Our lord bruise the power of the Snake on the cross. Sin no longer has the power of death. We need to believe in Christ alone for that sting of death not to poison us with sin. If you believe you need works you are under law and you gave power to that curse.[/QUOTE)




Amen

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is 1 John 5:16 referring to spiritual death or physical death? Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins (grievous, mortal sins as you and Roman Catholics would call them) that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

You seem to be peddling sinless perfection. About all you talk about is sinning and losing salvation.

You ignore the truth that it's the unrighteousness who practice sin and not those who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9)

The believer has to meet a bare minimum level requirement of holiness? Does God grade on a curve? What is the passing grade?

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification, yet even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God.. and the ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God..

You have not refuted my beliefs (except in your own mind) and no amount of arguing will get you to change your mind. Those who are truly seeking the truth will find the truth in scripture regardless.

I understand that 1 John 5:16-17 is dealing with a unique specific sin unto death, and it is not speaking generally of sins not unto death, but it sets the ground work for the existence of sins not unto death (none the less). In this point in Scripture, a believer is struggling with a specific mortal sin, but they are confessing this sin to Jesus, and they are asking the brethren to pray for him so as to overcome this sin. For if the believer receives life, it means he receives victory from the Lord over this sin. That is why they are praying for him. What on Earth you believe this passage says is beyond me.

As for Sinless Perfection: You can keep falsely accusing me if you like, but I already told you I don't believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue because I see Sinless Perfection as primarily putting away sins that are not unto death (Which are faults of character, or NT commands that is not attached with warnings of condemnation and or not a major violation of loving God and others).

As for Hebrews 12:14: You really do not understand what verse 15 says. You think it supports you and you just quote in the hopes that it defends you when it does not. The context actually speaks against what you believe. First, Hebrews 12:14 says to follow after not only holiness but in following peace with all men. If we do not, we will not see the Lord. This is what the verse plainly says (Which you ignore). If we do not see the Lord, we will not be saved. Verse 15 is referring to the believer in failing the grace of God because verse 14 says to believers to follow after holiness, and peace with all men. In other words, a believer can fail the grace of God if they are not following after holiness and peace with all men.

 

[Danthemailman]

As for Hebrews 12:14: You really do not understand what verse 15 says. You think it supports you and you just quote in the hopes that it defends you when it does not. The context actually speaks against what you believe. First, Hebrews 12:14 says to follow after not only holiness but in following peace with all men. If we do not, we will not see the Lord. This is what the verse plainly says (Which you ignore). If we do not see the Lord, we will not be saved. Verse 15 is referring to the believer in failing the grace of God because verse 14 says to believers to follow after holiness, and peace with all men. In other words, a believer can fail the grace of God if they are not following after holiness and peace with all men.

It's you who does not understand. As I already explained, in Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy."

Works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists will typically interpret Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if you don't "sufficiently" pursue peace with all men and you are not "sufficiently" following after holiness (you are not holy "enough" practically speaking/performance based--works salvation) then you won't see the Lord/won't be saved. Being or remaining holy "enough" or else losing salvation is not what's being addressed here. Those who fail to pursue peace with all men and sanctification demonstrate that they have come short/fallen short/failed to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15)

It's unbelievers and not believers who fail to obtain the grace of God. Believers have been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) and have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:2) Praise God!

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

As for John 3:16: Try reading John 3:20. It says all who do evil hate the light. The light is Jesus. So if we do evil, we are actually hating Jesus.

That's why you will never do evil again after you get saved. The only reason why saved people still commit sins is not because of they are evil but because they have sin dwelling in them. That's what Romans 7:17 teaches.

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." - Romans 7:17

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's why you will never do evil again after you get saved. The only reason why saved people still commit sins is not because of they are evil but because they have sin dwelling in them. That's what Romans 7:17 teaches.

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." - Romans 7:17

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul was speaking from his past experience when he was in the false Pharisee religion while trying to save himself by Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace. Just read the beginning of the chapter. Romans 7:1 establishes that he is talking about those who know the Law (i.e. the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal). We are not under the Law of Moses, but we are under the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

Yes, Romans 7:17 is true. But it is not in reference to the believer in Jesus, but those who are under the Law of Moses or Law Alone Salvationism. For if a person were to make Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace a part of their life, then it is sin that takes control of a person and it is no more solely what they want. They do not want to sin, and yet they will sin because they are not abiding in Christ. Romans 13:14 says, “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Romans 8:2 says that the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. The Law of sin and death is the Law of Moses because you could be stoned for disobeying the Law of Moses. So unless your Bible contradicts itself, Paul is speaking from two different perspectives between Romans 7:14-24 vs. Romans 8:2 (and other passages).

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Paul was speaking from his past experience when he was in the false Pharisee religion while trying to save himself by Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace.

That's interesting. I thought "now" was the present moment. I thought "is" was present tense. Maybe I need an English lesson.

Yes, Romans 7:17 is true. But it is not in reference to the believer in Jesus, but those who are under the Law of Moses or Law Alone Salvationism.

What about this, 1 John 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

 

[klutedavid]

Do you agree that Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law?

Do you agree that Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced?

If so, then you should agree that Jesus taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not give his own set of commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so if Jesus had taught his own set of commandments, then he would have sinned and disqualified himself from being our Savior. In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commandments with the instruction that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so again what Jesus taught by word was the same as what he taught by example, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

To believe in the one who he has sent is to believe in who he is, what he was sent to accomplish, and in what that means for how we should live our lives. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is His instructions for how to express His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). God's ways reveal His nature and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), which looked like life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law reveals God's ways or is the way (Jeremiah 6:16-19), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:47), so Jesus is the personification of God's nature, he is the Word of God made flesh, and he put the nature of the Father on display, which is why he is the personification of the way, the truth, and the life, that no one comes to the Father but through him, and that anyone who has seen him as seen the Father (John 14:6-9). In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that the Scriptures testify about him, so the whole goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us about how to know or have a relationship with Christ and about how to testifying about who he is, which is why he is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4). In John 6:40, Jesus said that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so I think that obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in who Jesus is.

Jesus began his ministry calling people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23), and the Mosaic Law is how his people knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). He also said in those verses that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, but those who endure to the end will be saved. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us how to live in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation from sin, and sin is living in transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe both in what Jesus was sent to accomplish through his ministry and through his death on the cross and understand what that means for how we should live our lives, then we will express that belief through repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love and how we are to love as he loved. Over and over, the both the OT and the NT associate love with obedience to God's commandments:

View attachment 284919

Hello Soyeong.

Thanks for the reply.

Do you agree that Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law?

Of course I agree with this statement of yours but your overlooking a deeper point.

Do you agree that Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced?

Here is where I strongly disagree with you, Soyeong.

Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day according to the law, that is a fact.

Was circumcision required under the law of Moses?

Leviticus 12:3
On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

That is also a fact.

So we have this circumcised Jesus teaching against circumcision, which is the law. This is another fact.

So do we literally walk as Jesus walked under the law of Moses?

Obviously not, we cannot walk according to the law of Moses as Jesus did.

You have lost the argument.

On this important point Soyeong, your argument is shattered.

A Gentile cannot obey the law of Moses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's interesting. I thought "now" was the present moment. I thought "is" was present tense. Maybe I need an English lesson.

Well, I can speak about a wrong perspective or belief and use the word “now” as if it talking from holding to that particular wrong belief so as to show the error of it. For example: I believe your view of a sin and still be saved gospel is not biblical and neither is it moral. For I can say,

“Now if I justify sin, I stand condemned before God because His Word says that if we willfully sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin in Hebrews 10:26.” ~ Quote: BH.
​

See? That does not mean I am in agreement with this false belief just because I was using the word “now.”

What about this, 1 John 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Battling sin vs. Justifying sin:
(An explanation on 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9):

Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.).

The key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this "does not commit sin" is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26, Jude 1:4). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. Eternal Security Proponents (i.e. OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved), and or Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Types (Free Will Baptists) think future sin is forgiven them by having a belief alone on Jesus. So while they believe sin may exist on a physical level, they do not think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because they believe Jesus paid for their future sins (When the Bible never says future sin is forgiven us). In other words, I believe it is those who justify sin in some way who have not been born again spiritually and who have never seen or known Christ and He (the seed) does not abide in them. 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is talking about "willful sin" in Hebrews 10:26 in view or light of 1 John 1:8.

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

1 John 3:9 should read like this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."​

1 John 3:6 should read like this:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."​

This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.

Christians can battle with sin. This is why they need to confess of their sins in order to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1-2 (cf. with: Proverbs 28:13, Psalms 51, Luke 15:18-21, Luke 18:9-14). But Christians are told to "sin no more" by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (John 5:14, John 8:11). The apostle John said to "sin not" (1 John 2:1).

Christians are to enter the Sanctification Process and put away sin by God's power.
It's why Paul said let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Romans 8:13 essentially says if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we shall live. Two ways are set before us. We either seek to justify sin and die, or we seek to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit and live (live eternally). Both God's grace (confessing sin to the Lord), and in forsaking our sin, and battling against putting it away by His power and help (and by putting the Word on the inside of us) is going to help us to overcome and live holy in this life. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (Note: I believe that the way they cease from sin was in the fact that they denied themselves sin, and prayed, and fasted, and suffered persecution for Christ); And this passage also says that we should live the rest of our time (here on Earth obviously) not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.

Paul says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).
So we have to in time have the victory over our sin. The time for each believer on this is between that person and God. Every man is different. Only God can know a person's heart ultimately. But this does not mean we should not warn believers to keep the faith in Jesus, and or to confess and forsake sin and to battle against sin. For Jesus said that a person is in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire if they look upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). But obviously many men who first come to Christ do struggle greatly with this kind of sin. So God is obviously patient and long suffering towards believer in them repenting (confessing of their sin with the intent of putting that sin away for good) (2 Peter 3:9). Believers must seek to overcome grievous sin in this life and not think that they do not need to worry about sin in this life.

In other words, God's grace is there for a person if they are truly seeking to battle and fight and put away sin. This does not mean that believers cannot stumble into doing a sin on rare occasion. Let me give you an example:

The drunk who has no intention of giving up his sin of alcoholism may join a drug program to take advantage of a family member, or temporarily quite them for a time. They are justifying their sin and have no real intention of reforming and or changing their bad behavior.

On the other hand, the drunk who joins a drug program to overcome their sin of alcoholism may stumble on rare occasion, but they pick themselves back up and they fight, and battle against their sin of alcoholism with ever fiber of their being and seek to conquer their sin.

The thing is that men have overcome the sin of alcoholism by drug programs without them asking God to help them. Imagine how much more God can do in a faithful believer's life because they have the living God residing within in them?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

Well no, sin is still sin even if you did it ignorantly. If you cannot sin, then you cannot sin. It's as simple as that. Just like the hymn goes, "sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white as snow." If Jesus washed you white as snow, then that means that you don't sin anymore.

 

[Soyeong]

Hello Soyeong.

Thanks for the reply.
Of course I agree with this statement of yours but your overlooking a deeper point. Here is where I strongly disagree with you, Soyeong.

Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day according to the law, that is a fact.

Was circumcision required under the law of Moses?

Leviticus 12:3
On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

That is also a fact.

So we have this circumcised Jesus teaching against circumcision, which is the law. This is another fact.

So do we literally walk as Jesus walked under the law of Moses?

Obviously not, we cannot walk according to the law of Moses as Jesus did.

You have lost the argument.

On this important point Soyeong, your argument is shattered.

A Gentile cannot obey the law of Moses.

So you think that Jesus did hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced? He wants us to do what he said, but not as he did?

The major problem I have with your shattering of my argument is that Jesus never spoke against circumcision.

 

[klutedavid]

So you think that Jesus did hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced? He wants us to do what he said, but not as he did?

Are you saying that a Gentile is to be circumcised as Jesus was circumcised?

You must confess your doctrine on this matter. Your doctrine must be clear and concise.

The major problem I have with your shattering of my argument is that Jesus never spoke against circumcision.

Are you stating that the Holy Spirit's instruction to Paul, that the Gentiles were not to be circumcised. Is in fact, contrary to what Jesus taught?

Please state whether you believe the witness of the Holy Spirit, is different to the witness of Jesus Christ.

Circumcision is critical to both the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. Anyone who denies circumcision is mandatory in both of these covenants, will be excommunicated.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well no, sin is still sin even if you did it ignorantly. If you cannot sin, then you cannot sin. It's as simple as that. Just like the hymn goes, "sin had left a crimson stain, he washed it white as snow." If Jesus washed you white as snow, then that means that you don't sin anymore.

If believers do not sin anymore than why on Earth did Paul say to kick out the brother who was fornicating in the church in 1 Corinthians 5?

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22-23).

Notice that Jesus casts out believers because they are working iniquity.
Iniquity is sin.
So it looks like your belief cannot be supported by the Scriptures.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's you who does not understand. As I already explained, in Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy."

Works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists will typically interpret Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if you don't "sufficiently" pursue peace with all men and you are not "sufficiently" following after holiness (you are not holy "enough" practically speaking/performance based--works salvation) then you won't see the Lord/won't be saved. Being or remaining holy "enough" or else losing salvation is not what's being addressed here. Those who fail to pursue peace with all men and sanctification demonstrate that they have come short/fallen short/failed to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15)

It's unbelievers and not believers who fail to obtain the grace of God. Believers have been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) and have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:2) Praise God!

No. If I say a dog jumps over the fence that is what it means. Go back and read Hebrews 12:14. It says follow after peace without which no man shall see the Lord. It says follow after holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. It means what it says, just like when I say a dog jumps over the fence. But of course you don't like what Hebrews 12:14 says so you seek to change what it plainly says. Hebrews 12:14 is talking about following after holy living because it mentions following after making peace with all men. Following after peace with all men is a holy action. Not following after peace with all men means one will not see the Lord. It's what the verse says.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Being born again according to John 3:3 is in line (or context) with John 3:19-21. John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light. Again, you are still running into a problem if you hold to the message that says that all we need to do is believe in the finished work of Christ and nothing else for salvation; Or Jesus paid for all my future sin nonsense. The very message itself is telling a person indirectly that they can sin and still be saved (which is contrary to John 3:20).

Your concept of salvation is flawed. How many of your sins were future when Christ died? Simple. All of them. You cannot draw a line under life before salvation and say that no one can sin after that time. It's not true. Anyone who says they do not sin is a liar (1 John 1:8). I do not believe in the "invite Jesus into your heart" approach. If the heart is unclean, the individual can ask until his/her tongue drops off, but Lord Jesus is not coming in. We need to be born again.

If you imagine that you no longer sin because you are saved, you are denying God's word and making yourself the judge of other's behaviour. That is extremely risky because God will judge you as mercilessly as you judge others. I prefer mercy and grace myself. I delight in the fact that I only need to confess my sins and God is faithful and just to forgive me. I am thankful that Lord Jesus is everything I need in order to please the most Holy God. I have a righteousness that does not depend on my performance but on Christ, who IS my righteousness.

 

[Danthemailman]

No. If I say a dog jumps over the fence that is what it means. Go back and read Hebrews 12:14. It says follow after peace without which no man shall see the Lord. It says follow after holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. It means what it says, just like when I say a dog jumps over the fence. But of course you don't like what Hebrews 12:14 says so you seek to change what it plainly says.

I already read Hebrews 12:14 multiple times from the NASB. I’m perfectly fine with what it says and changed nothing. It says Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Be sure to go back and read post #210 again.

 

[Danthemailman]

Your concept of salvation is flawed. How many of your sins were future when Christ died? Simple. All of them. You cannot draw a line under life before salvation and say that no one can sin after that time. It's not true. Anyone who says they do not sin is a liar (1 John 1:8). I do not believe in the "invite Jesus into your heart" approach. If the heart is unclean, the individual can ask until his/her tongue drops off, but Lord Jesus is not coming in. We need to be born again.

If you imagine that you no longer sin because you are saved, you are denying God's word and making yourself the judge of other's behaviour. That is extremely risky because God will judge you as mercilessly as you judge others. I prefer mercy and grace myself. I delight in the fact that I only need to confess my sins and God is faithful and just to forgive me. I am thankful that Lord Jesus is everything I need in order to please the most Holy God. I have a righteousness that does not depend on my performance but on Christ, who IS my righteousness.

Amen and well said!