Why do people hate easy believism?

[Albion]

You are just hitting the disagree button with no real proof or evidence to support you. I see your camp and George Sodini's camp preach the same message that believers trust in the finished work of Christ and nothing else. What distinguishes one from obeying and the other in disobeying?

Take it up with George Sodini.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yeah, with pride you will never get any knowledge.

What does that have to do with our conversation? See when one cannot stay with the subject at hand, that tells me they cannot stand their ground with that subject.

When you are ready to answer the questions, and stay on track, just let me know..

 

[Danigt22]

What does that have to do with our conversation? See when one cannot stay with the subject at hand, that tells me they cannot stand their ground with that subject.

When you are ready to answer the questions, and stay on track, just let me know..

I gave quotes from Jesus that gives the full context of what you are meaning. If you only seek to flame and show your pride I have no reason to talk with you. I already have this same problem with another user.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I gave quotes from Jesus that gives the full context of what you are meaning. If you only seek to flame and show your pride I have no reason to talk with you. I already have this same problem with another user.

If I flamed, please show me where. If you cannot, I'll assume this is the part where you create a reason to excuse yourself from the conversation, and that's fine, but I do ask that you don't accuse me of someting I did not do, regardless of your reason for doing so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Take it up with George Sodini.

But you are failing to grasp why George did what he did. He was following the message you follow in a literal way which says one is saved by the finished work of Christ and nothing else and or that Jesus paid for all one's future sins (Thereby giving a person the impression that nothing is required as a part of being saved).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I concluded that there was no way to know what you were saying in that post. Again, it's because of the use of imprecise wording that could be taken in different ways by the reader.

Look here, for instance. You wrote:

"If one is advocating salvation without works, then one is advocating in not loving God and not loving others as a part of salvation."

Not only is that convoluted and unclear but what is "advocating salvation without works" supposed to mean?

Does it mean salvation is accomplished without works being a causative factor in the salvation?" Or does it mean "salvation occurs and there are no works in evidence thereafter?"

It means what it says. Works of loving God and loving others is a part of salvation. Do you believe that a believer must do works of love toward God and his neighbor to show they are saved? Yes, or no? I would say “yes.” So if you believe that way, I believe that, as well. So if this is the case: The key difference between us is that I believe that Sanctification (works, holy living, putting away mortal sin, etc.) after one is saved by God's grace is also a part of the salvation process. I believe this way because it is what the Bible says and it is consistent with basic morality. You want salvation to be by a belief alone, but yet you contradict yourself and say that Sanctification will always follow one being saved. So salvation is a part of the salvation equation. For even if you believed Sanctification itself did not actually involve salvation directly, the fact that it is always the result of salvation (in being saved by God's grace) is proof that Sanctification plays a part in salvation because one cannot refuse to enter the Sanctification Process and be saved in your book.

But I know why you hold to the belief that you do. It allows room for some small error that most folks do not want to talk about here. For if we are saved by a belief alone and nothing else, then no amount of holy living should play a factor in one being saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Albion

You want me to believe that Belief Alone-ism is true. It is not. The Bible teaches that we also need to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (after being saved by God's grace), too. Don't believe me? Just check out these verses below.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

Now, Albion, you either have to ignore these verses, or twist and change them to say something else in order to make Belief Alone-ism true. For these above verses fly in direct contradiction to Belief Alone-ism.

For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

People are confused on this issue because they fail to rightly divide that there are two major aspects of salvation that believers need to be concerned with (i.e. God's grace, and Sanctification). The 1st aspect of salvation is by God's grace which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the law. The second aspect of salvation is an outflow from God's grace (See: Titus 2:14, Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:11-12).

 

[Albion]

@Albion

You want me to believe that Belief Alone-ism is true. It is not. The Bible teaches that we also need to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (after being saved by God's grace), too. Don't believe me? Just check out these verses below.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

Now, Albion, you either have to ignore these verses, or twist and change them to say something else in order to make Belief Alone-ism true. For these above verses fly in direct contradiction to Belief Alone-ism.

For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

As I said before, you've switched away from the topic of 'Easy Believism' and onto a defense of 'Works Righteousness.' That's an old debate having nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's actually you who has twisted these verses above in order to promote "type 2 works salvation." Since you fail to interpret scripture within it's intended context and fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine and confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture, you will inevitably misinterpret these passages of scripture above and continue to peddle "performance based works salvation."

As for belief alone/salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone, the Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Is obeying Jesus a part of the faith?
Is Jesus warning us of the condemnation of sin in Matthew 5:28-30 a part of the faith?
I would say it is.

My problem with the Belief Alone-ism camp is that all of them have told me that the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46 do not apply. But that does not make any sense because why would Jesus give us new teachings just so that they could quickly be undone after the cross? It makes no sense. But even Paul and his followers after the cross warned about how sin can destroy our souls. Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and he lists various sins as an example (See: Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I said before, you've switched away from the topic of 'Easy Believism' and onto a defense of 'Works Righteousness.' That's an old debate having nothing to do with this thread.

Easy Believism is by defintion an exclusion of “God's biblical version grace, + Sanctification” as a part of salvation. I am merely trying to point out that most (not all) of the Belief Alone-ism camps are not at all that much different because they all justify some level of sin in some way. For most have told me that king David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder. Most have told me that a believer (who generally lived a holy life) can stumble into commiting a mortal sin and die and be saved without having a chance to confess of that sin.

 

[Albion]

Easy Believism is by defintion an exclusion of “God's biblical version grace, + Sanctification” as a part of salvation. .

No, it isn't. It is a claim that people who get saved think that they have a license to sin all they want thereafter. You outlined it yourself but now are onto something else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Albion

Let me give you an example. If I told a child that they are saved by a belief alone on Jesus and nothing else and they never got to see me again, and they took my words literally, then I would be to blame if they turned out to be the next George Sodini because the VERY MESSAGE itself is leading that person into sin. The message is not saying they are saved and that will always lead to holiness or holy living. If that is what you believe, then stop saying plus nothing else and you must live holy as a part of the salvation equation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, it isn't. It is a claim that people who get saved think that they have a license to sin all they want thereafter. You outlined it yourself but now are onto something else.

There are varying degrees of turning God's grace into a license to sin. Some say that a believer (who lives holy over the course of their life) is saved if they got hit by a bus and died before they confessed of their sin. Others say that one can sometimes sin and still be saved on some level but there needs to be progress towards holiness; Yet, they will always sin. Others believe you can live like the devil 24/7 and be saved.

Do you believe that a Christian loses salvation if they stumble into committing a mortal or grievous sin?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Actually that's exactly what Paul Washer condemns. I heard Paul Washer say word for word, "If you don't have work, you're not saved." He teaches the confusing lie that if you have faith then you will somehow automatically have all the works also. That's just a sneaky way of teaching works salvation. It's basically works salvation masqueraded as salvation through faith.

Do you think that all the false teachers would just openly proclaim to everyone that they are false teachers? Of course not. The Bible says they are in sheep's clothing. So they appear as if they were good Christians but in reality they're not. And it appears as if they taught salvation through faith alone but in reality they don't. Things are not always the way they appear. If you looked at a literal wolf in sheep's clothing, it would look like it was a real sheep. But if you did close examination, you would find out it's actually a fake sheep and there's wolf inside.

Paul Washer is quoting James. Perhaps you think the epistle of James does not belong in the Bible? It bugged Martin Luther. Lord Jesus said that we can recognise true or false by their fruit. Before I was saved, I despised church (bad experiences) and I literally could not read the Bible. After I was born again, I sought out other Christians and loved to go to every meeting that I could. I studied the Bible, sometimes for hours. Everything began to change. Things I used to do that did not bother me disgusted me. And that change has been progressive over the decades.

Way too many people are Christian in name only. Billy Graham stated that he would be delighted if 4% of the decisions made at his rallies were genuine.

I know many people, including my own daughter, who believe the facts but are not born again. To kid them that they are going to heaven when they die does them no favours and gives them false hope. Believing is indeed simple. Savation is free. But it is believing in the heart, not just spouting some vague "sinner's prayer".

 

[Aussie Pete]

@Albion

Let me give you an example. If I told a child that they are saved by a belief alone on Jesus and nothing else and they never got to see me again, and they took my words literally, then I would be to blame if they turned out to be the next George Sodini because the VERY MESSAGE itself is leading that person into sin. The message is not saying they are saved and that will always lead to holiness or holy living. If that is what you believe, then stop saying plus nothing else and you must live holy as a part of the salvation equation.

Someone who is really born again will want to turn away from their old way of life. The new nature within hates sin and wants to go God's way. Anyone who tells me that they love to sin and don't want to change is telling me that they are not born again.

 

[Danthemailman]

Is obeying Jesus a part of the faith?

I believe it's part of the Christian faith in the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines, yet faith in Christ unto salvation is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and obedience which "follows" and is produced "out of" faith (fruit of faith) is "works" and we are saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). You basically teach that faith "is" obedience/works.

Is Jesus warning us of the condemnation of sin in Matthew 5:28-30 a part of the faith?
I would say it is.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. *NEVER lose sight of that!

So you are saying faith "is" never looking at a woman lustfully and if one has ever looked at a woman with lust is in heart, he does not have faith and won't be saved? How many people can honestly say they have NEVER had a lustful thought? Thank God for the blood of Christ or else NOBODY would be saved! You might as well just say faith "is" never sinning at all and faith "is" works, because that is basically what you are teaching -- "performance based works salvation."

My problem with the Belief Alone-ism camp is that all of them have told me that the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46 do not apply.

You seem to be using the words of Jesus here to teach salvation by works and/or sinless perfection. Often we see Jesus' teachings in the 4 gospel accounts in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes, calling them out on their hypocrisy. You should not read sinless perfection and works salvation into His teachings.

But that does not make any sense because why would Jesus give us new teachings just so that they could quickly be undone after the cross? It makes no sense.

What makes no sense is Jesus going to the cross to save sinless people.

But even Paul and his followers after the cross warned about how sin can destroy our souls. Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and he lists various sins as an example (See: Galatians 5:19-21).

Take note that Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who practice such things (list of sins in Galatians 5:19-21) will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So if no works are required as a part of salvation, then one does not have to lift a finger for God. They can go back to their old life and eat the vomit again.

When all else fails play the straw man card.

You obviously need to read the Parable of the Talents again. Matthew 25:21 makes it clear that the one who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of their Lord, and the other who was unprofitable was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).

I have read the Parable of the Talents numerous times and those who teach salvation by works and eternal IN-security commonly cite this parable as an alleged proof text for their doctrine.

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer. He obviously had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

*The children of Israel were called "servants" but they were not all saved.*

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..

 

[Danthemailman]

As I said before, you've switched away from the topic of 'Easy Believism' and onto a defense of 'Works Righteousness.' That's an old debate having nothing to do with this thread.

Amen! "Works righteousness/performance based works salvation" is exactly what he is peddling.

You might as well call that "Hard Believism."

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

No, it isn't. It is a claim that people who get saved think that they have a license to sin all they want thereafter. You outlined it yourself but now are onto something else.

God will punish you if you turn God's grace into a licence to sin. You would still go to heaven but you would ruin your life here on earth if you just deliberately lived in sin after being saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Someone who is really born again will want to turn away from their old way of life. The new nature within hates sin and wants to go God's way. Anyone who tells me that they love to sin and don't want to change is telling me that they are not born again.

Being born again according to John 3:3 is in line (or context) with John 3:19-21. John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light. Again, you are still running into a problem if you hold to the message that says that all we need to do is believe in the finished work of Christ and nothing else for salvation; Or Jesus paid for all my future sin nonsense. The very message itself is telling a person indirectly that they can sin and still be saved (which is contrary to John 3:20).