Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

[InterestedAtheist]

It's rarely possible to believe that "impossible things" are within God's will.

Why is that?

 

[cvanwey]

Sure. Here it is:

Intellectual Honesty?

That answer is inherent to the source I provided, and as you've seen multiple times since you've been on here, I haven't wavered from this interpretation on prayer. And yes, there are various interpreters, BUT just saying this isn't to also say that all interpreters have identical hermeneutical methods/approaches.

So, let's not equivocate on anything here. For you to dismiss my source, you'd actually have to engage it and refute it (kind of like I've engaged more than one viewpoint on the subject of the purpose and efficacy of prayer), and not just say, "Well, there's others out there who think differently." Sure, there are those who think differently, but thinking differently isn't to extinguish an alternative or opposing viewpoint. So, let's not pretend that my viewpoint can just summarily be dispensed with ...

Noted.

Keeping in line with the OP, and also taking into account that both you and I have decided to engage in this topic, let us both forge ahead appropriately

Let's maybe start anew? I trust, that the observations made below, are 'common knowledge', for which we both agree???

- People claim God(s) exist
- People claim this/these God(s) is/are interactive
- The book, from this God(s), claims to answer the call to prayer, at least in some capacity
- Furthermore, regardless of one's own individual interpretation of such said verses, humans make countless anecdotal claims to answered prayer(s)

Taking into account the above...

Is it safe to assume, in accordance with the fact no one is being cured of Down's syndrome, missing limbs, and Cerebral Palsy, that....?

a. this God does not really exist, and all claims of answers in prayer are actually the result of alternative processes?
b. God exists, does answer prayer, but for some reason, perpetually skips any and all petitionary and intercessory requests for restoration for Down's, amputees, and CP?
c. God exists, answers prayers, but excludes specific categories, for which we are completely unaware, even though the Bible seems to suggest otherwise?

d. (maybe you have another option to fill in here?)

 

[Dansiph]

but for some reason

You're right there. There is a reason and I don't think us knowing it or agreeing with it matters.

In my opinion your suggestion that these things should be healed by God doesn't even really make sense.

I lived next door to someone with downs syndrome. His life was a happy one. Missing limbs can be a consequence of human actions, for example warfare. Either way, people with missing limbs can have fulfilling lives. There's even a famous Christian speaker who is missing both arms and both legs. Lastly, here is someone with cerebral palsy (red gloves) sparring with professional fighters:

Have you thought about the possiblity that God exists and he knows exactly what he's doing?

 

[Rachel20]

Regarding the issue of amputees, I have a theory about this. Aside from showing that Jesus was truly the Messiah (Luke 7:22, Hebrews 2:4), his miracles may have been meant to teach spiritual lessons through the use of physical ones. So for example, the healing of blind eyes and deaf ears would correspond to the opening of spiritually blind eyes and deaf ears, etc... But healing what's been cut off would not correspond to any spiritual lesson, rather refusing to heal it would, unless by means of regrafting in (Numbers 15:31, Romans 11:24).

 

[Jok]

Regarding the issue of amputees, I have a theory about this. Aside from showing that Jesus was truly the Messiah (Luke 7:22, Hebrews 2:4), his miracles may have been meant to teach spiritual lessons through the use of physical ones. So for example, the healing of blind eyes and deaf ears would correspond to the opening of spiritually blind eyes and deaf ears, etc... But healing what's been cut off would not correspond to any spiritual lesson, rather refusing to heal it would, unless by means of regrafting in (Numbers 15:31, Romans 11:24).

The withered hand, and healing cripples still had degrees of regeneration, but those were special cases of Jesus or Apostles. However if miraculously regrown limbs did occur once in a blue moon it would occur via some physical progression, and this “Rare but verified” phenomenon would simply become a new medical mystery to the tune of “We’re not quite sure why/how it happens but we’re working on an answer.” I don’t think that Wolverine style healing miracles happened after Jesus and the Apostles were gone.

So I do think that for whatever the reason certain miracles are not part of the playbook and they will never happen, however if they did start happening I think they would just become rationalized anyway.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hi, @cvanwey !
This all seems perfectly reasonable. My responses in blue.

- People claim God(s) exist
- People claim this/these God(s) is/are interactive
- The book, from this God(s), claims to answer the call to prayer, at least in some capacity
- Furthermore, regardless of one's own individual interpretation of such said verses, humans make countless anecdotal claims to answered prayer(s)
I'd say that sounds entirely reasonable. I think nobody would seriously dispute that Christians do use prayer to ask God for things, at least some of the time, and that God is alleged to answer such prayers, at least some of the time.
Taking into account the above...
Is it safe to assume, in accordance with the fact no one is being cured of Down's syndrome, missing limbs, and Cerebral Palsy, that....?

a. this God does not really exist, and all claims of answers in prayer are actually the result of alternative processes?
That's certainly one possible answer.
b. God exists, does answer prayer, but for some reason, perpetually skips any and all petitionary and intercessory requests for restoration for Down's, amputees, and CP?
Mmm. Why on earth would that happen?
c. God exists, answers prayers, but excludes specific categories, for which we are completely unaware, even though the Bible seems to suggest otherwise?
It certainly does.
d. (maybe you have another option to fill in here?)
Can't think of one.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Why God does not answer prayers for "impossible" things is a very interesting question, no doubt. But it's not really the one I want to hear an answer to right now.

Why is it that Christians don't, generally speaking, pray to God for impossible things?

If nobody is going to answer it, could they at least tell me why they don't want to answer it?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry, multiple post.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

...

 

[RDKirk]

Why God does not answer prayers for "impossible" things is a very interesting question, no doubt. But it's not really the one I want to hear an answer to right now.

Why is it that Christians don't, generally speaking, pray to God for impossible things?

If nobody is going to answer it, could they at least tell me why they don't want to answer it?

I gave you an answer. You didn't like my answer. Why do you expect a different answer?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

This is a blind post, so excuse me if this is repetition.

It seems to me that the non-religious have a substantial misunderstanding about what prayer is. Let me explain.

In Ancient Egypt, there were magic rites to get the gods to do what you wanted. You conjured a god into a figure, said an incantation, threatened or bribed the gods, etc. At the same time, there were also formal prayers, such as the Invocation of the Aten. Or in Rome, there were straight-up magic rites like the Lupercalia wolftails that were combined with a more metaphysical invocation of the Genius as generative property. In Anthropology, a distinction is made between Magic as a hands-on attempt to manipulate the gods or the spiritual; and Prayer, the function of which is more communion or relation with the Powers. Often these are a bit muddled, but there is a real difference in kind.

In the modern world, the role of magic has been taken on by Medicine more often than not. Whenever someone visits a doctor, they are usually looking for a pill or ointment to immediately end their problem. Sometimes when this is not forthcoming, they get angry. Or they will ask for experimental treatments or the like. The patient thinks in a transactional sense, that if I diligently take my pills or chemotherapy, healing will result. Back in the day, doctors gave healing amulets of Asclepius or said invocations to gods of healing or suggested pilgrimages. Basically in a biologic sense, these could be construed as placebos, but a thing that if you do it will heal, is akin to a magic rite in that way. It is similar to how some operations, like certain arthroscopies, might just be placebos. There is bargaining with the authority, and an invoked sense of control or manipulation of nature here. The anthropologic role of magic is increasingly filled by Medicine or its charlatan counterfeits, like Chiropractery or Homeopathy.

Prayer is about maintaining the relationship with God. It os a form of worship. They did a study about this, in which they examined what patients' prayed for or asked to be prayed about, and the primary function is not physical health, but psychological or psychical. The purpose is to restore the worshipper in relation to the Providence of God. A good Biblical example, is Jesus praying at Gethsemane, and why Christian prayer often has a formula of Thy will be done.

Now when someone visits a faith-healer that claims they can pull sickness from their stomach or whatnot, they are looking for magic. The intent is to restore the material form, to gain aid. This is also often coupled to having to 'sacrifice' either time, or wealth, or in the older sense living things, to convince or cajole. If you do this God, I will do that. Look at Prosperity Preachers for another example of the magical rite masquerading as the prayer.

The reason such prayers do not occur, is because the purpose of prayer is to seek succor with God. To commune with Him, not to gain advantage from Him.

Now you can argue that is because it is impossible for certain things to happen, so people do not want to risk their relationship with God to ask for it. I have seen people argue exactly that in medical studies on prayer. In a sense, if you believe in God's Providence, what happened occured with purpose, so accomodation within God's purpose makes sense here - and praying against it, is essentially trying to cajole God to alter said purpose, and thus a species of magic, which implies a failure of faith in said Providence. Thus, things that seem final, a lost limb or a death, when faith in God's Providence is maintained, become reframed in light of it - as a trial, or a miraculous escape, a mortification, a Damascus road, etc. If life has purpose, this too has purpose, in other words. If that finality is not clearly present yet, the framing of the event will perhaps still allow petitionary prayer.

This is what the non-religious do not understand. They imagine prayer as a magic rite invoked for advantage, then seek to test if it works or wonder why people pray in the manner they do. They confuse prayer for a medical intervention or operation, just like they confuse mythology with scientific hypotheses. The issue is a conceptual one. Prayer is a moment of sonship, of Jesus, and via the Holy Spirit, of perhaps momentarily mimicking the perichoreisis of the Godhead. In CS Lewis' phrase, prayer is a act not separated from the continuous act of God Himself.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I gave you an answer. You didn't like my answer. Why do you expect a different answer?

I'm sorry. Is that where you said, "It's rarely possible to believe that "impossible things" are within God's will"?

Not sure I understand that.

First of all, Christians' holy writings are full of God doing impossible things. Speaking from a burning bush, parting waters, walking on water, multiplying food, raising the dead. The average Christian should be fully conversant with the idea of God working miracles.

Second, Christian history is full of claims that God worked miracles. There are so, so many stories from Christians - healing the unhealable, bringing people back to life, defying the laws of physics. For the past two thousand years, Christians have been reporting miracles, many of them of the most amazing kind.

And third, what seems impossible to us is presumably not so to God. Arms don't grow back, but it seems quite easy to imagine what it would look like if they did do so, and to believe that an all-powerful God has the power to make this happen. And if you'd ask God to heal cancer, why not ask Him to restore a limb.

So again, my question is: since Christians frequently ask God to do things, why do they only ever ask Him to do things that might happen by themselves - and never to do something impossible?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This is a blind post, so excuse me if this is repetition.

It seems to me that the non-religious have a substantial misunderstanding about what prayer is. Let me explain.

In Ancient Egypt, there were magic rites to get the gods to do what you wanted. You conjured a god into a figure, said an incantation, threatened or bribed the gods, etc. At the same time, there were also formal prayers, such as the Invocation of the Aten. Or in Rome, there were straight-up magic rites like the Lupercalia wolftails that were combined with a more metaphysical invocation of the Genius as generative property. In Anthropology, a distinction is made between Magic as a hands-on attempt to manipulate the gods or the spiritual; and Prayer, the function of which is more communion or relation with the Powers. Often these are a bit muddled, but there is a real difference in kind.

In the modern world, the role of magic has been taken on by Medicine more often than not. Whenever someone visits a doctor, they are usually looking for a pill or ointment to immediately end their problem. Sometimes when this is not forthcoming, they get angry. Or they will ask for experimental treatments or the like. The patient thinks in a transactional sense, that if I diligently take my pills or chemotherapy, healing will result. Back in the day, doctors gave healing amulets of Asclepius or said invocations to gods of healing or suggested pilgrimages. Basically in a biologic sense, these could be construed as placebos, but a thing that if you do it will heal, is akin to a magic rite in that way. It is similar to how some operations, like certain arthroscopies, might just be placebos. There is bargaining with the authority, and an invoked sense of control or manipulation of nature here. The anthropologic role of magic is increasingly filled by Medicine or its charlatan counterfeits, like Chiropractery or Homeopathy.

Prayer is about maintaining the relationship with God. It os a form of worship. They did a study about this, in which they examined what patients' prayed for or asked to be prayed about, and the primary function is not physical health, but psychological or psychical. The purpose is to restore the worshipper in relation to the Providence of God. A good Biblical example, is Jesus praying at Gethsemane, and why Christian prayer often has a formula of Thy will be done.

Now when someone visits a faith-healer that claims they can pull sickness from their stomach or whatnot, they are looking for magic. The intent is to restore the material form, to gain aid. This is also often coupled to having to 'sacrifice' either time, or wealth, or in the older sense living things, to convince or cajole. If you do this God, I will do that. Look at Prosperity Preachers for another example of the magical rite masquerading as the prayer.

The reason such prayers do not occur, is because the purpose of prayer is to seek succor with God. To commune with Him, not to gain advantage from Him.

Now you can argue that is because it is impossible for certain things to happen, so people do not want to risk their relationship with God to ask for it. I have seen people argue exactly that in medical studies on prayer. In a sense, if you believe in God's Providence, what happened occured with purpose, so accomodation within God's purpose makes sense here - and praying against it, is essentially trying to cajole God to alter said purpose, and thus a species of magic, which implies a failure of faith in said Providence. Thus, things that seem final, a lost limb or a death, when faith in God's Providence is maintained, become reframed in light of it - as a trial, or a miraculous escape, a mortification, a Damascus road, etc. If life has purpose, this too has purpose, in other words. If that finality is not clearly present yet, the framing of the event will perhaps still allow petitionary prayer.

This is what the non-religious do not understand. They imagine prayer as a magic rite invoked for advantage, then seek to test if it works or wonder why people pray in the manner they do. They confuse prayer for a medical intervention or operation, just like they confuse mythology with scientific hypotheses. The issue is a conceptual one. Prayer is a moment of sonship, of Jesus, and via the Holy Spirit, of perhaps momentarily mimicking the perichoreisis of the Godhead. In CS Lewis' phrase, prayer is a act not separated from the continuous act of God Himself.

I believe that is that it is a misunderstanding, and one that that I have seen in several others in this thread.

I hope I can clear this up.

I have seen several people post, as you do, saying that prayer is not about getting things from God. Well, that's fine, and a good discussion to have at another time. But that is not what I am asking right now.

Take a look at this: Prayer Wall

Here you can see Christians doing what Christians all over the world do, all the time: petitionary prayer. Asking God for things. Let's not get into a discussion on whether they are or are not doing prayer correctly. The fact is, Christians do pray to God and ask Him to give them things.

So my question is this:

Why do these Christians, who pray to God and ask Him for things, and clearly believe that their prayers are often if not always answered...

Why do they never pray for impossible things, but only for things which might happen anyway?

 

[RDKirk]

I'm sorry. Is that where you said, "It's rarely possible to believe that "impossible things" are within God's will"?

Not sure I understand that.

First of all, Christians' holy writings are full of God doing impossible things. Speaking from a burning bush, parting waters, walking on water, multiplying food, raising the dead. The average Christian should be fully conversant with the idea of God working miracles.

Second, Christian history is full of claims that God worked miracles. There are so, so many stories from Christians - healing the unhealable, bringing people back to life, defying the laws of physics. For the past two thousand years, Christians have been reporting miracles, many of them of the most amazing kind.

And third, what seems impossible to us is presumably not so to God. Arms don't grow back, but it seems quite easy to imagine what it would look like if they did do so, and to believe that an all-powerful God has the power to make this happen. And if you'd ask God to heal cancer, why not ask Him to restore a limb.

So again, my question is: since Christians frequently ask God to do things, why do they only ever ask Him to do things that might happen by themselves - and never to do something impossible?

I would give you the same fuller explanation that Quid est Veritas? gave you.

The reason such prayers do not occur, is because the purpose of prayer is to seek succor with God. To commune with Him, not to gain advantage from Him.

But you didn't like that answer, either.

Are you actually seeking information, or are you just trying to make your own point?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I would give you the same fuller explanation that Quid est Veritas? gave you.



But you didn't like that answer, either.

Are you actually seeking information, or are you just trying to make your own point?

I'm seeking information.

Quid says that Christians do not ask God for things. But they do - as I have shown quite a number of times throughout this thread. Take a look at the Prayer Wall I referred to above. It's full of Christians asking God to give them things. But they only ever ask for things they might get by chance anyway.
This seems very strange. I'm just asking why. Nobody has been able to give a plausible answer yet. That seems strange too.

 

[cvanwey]

You're right there. There is a reason and I don't think us knowing it or agreeing with it matters.

In my opinion your suggestion that these things should be healed by God doesn't even really make sense.

I lived next door to someone with downs syndrome. His life was a happy one. Missing limbs can be a consequence of human actions, for example warfare. Either way, people with missing limbs can have fulfilling lives. There's even a famous Christian speaker who is missing both arms and both legs. Lastly, here is someone with cerebral palsy (red gloves) sparring with professional fighters:

Have you thought about the possiblity that God exists and he knows exactly what he's doing?

I find it interesting you did not address what I wrote in post #62? This post, which is right above yours BTW, pretty much answers the call to everything you just stated here. Let me now extend a bit, in accordance with your direct response...

Has anyone ever performed petitionary and/or intercessory prayer to end CP, ever???

And if so, which I would assume some have, why does God seem to skip over such requests, 100% of the time, to remove CP?

I trust you will agree that CP can also cause many hardships, as there exists differing levels of CP - (not just 'high functioning' cases):

Jerry's story | Leading cerebral palsy and birth injury claims solicitors

 

[Dansiph]

I find it interesting you did not address what I wrote in post #62? This post, which is right above yours BTW, pretty much answers the call to everything you just stated here. Let me now extend a bit, in accordance with your direct response...

Has anyone ever performed petitionary and/or intercessory prayer to end CP, ever???

And if so, which I would assume some have, why does God seem to skip over such requests, 100% of the time, to remove CP?

I trust you will agree that CP can also cause many hardships, as there exists differing levels of CP - (not just 'high functioning' cases):

Jerry's story | Leading cerebral palsy and birth injury claims solicitors

I did address post 62. I said you're right, there is a reason. I said I don't know the reason.

 

[cvanwey]

-- Prayer is about maintaining the relationship with God. It os a form of worship.

-- The reason such prayers do not occur, is because the purpose of prayer is to seek succor with God. To commune with Him, not to gain advantage from Him.

Where exactly are these assertions clarified in full, which would conclude absolute absurdity or misunderstanding in the attempts to petition God for any type of physical restoration -- (i.e. amputees, Down's syndrome, CP)?

 

[cvanwey]

I did address post 62. I said you're right, there is a reason. I said I don't know the reason.

If you actually only said that, I would not have every responded. But you stated:

There is a reason and I don't think us knowing it or agreeing with it matters.

In my opinion your suggestion that these things should be healed by God doesn't even really make sense.

I lived next door to someone with downs syndrome. His life was a happy one. Missing limbs can be a consequence of human actions, for example warfare. Either way, people with missing limbs can have fulfilling lives. There's even a famous Christian speaker who is missing both arms and both legs. Lastly, here is someone with cerebral palsy (red gloves) sparring with professional fighters

So if you want to retract all of this, no problem. Otherwise, please address post #76

 

[RDKirk]

I'm seeking information.

Quid says that Christians do not ask God for things. But they do - as I have shown quite a number of times throughout this thread. Take a look at the Prayer Wall I referred to above. It's full of Christians asking God to give them things. But they only ever ask for things they might get by chance anyway.
This seems very strange. I'm just asking why. Nobody has been able to give a plausible answer yet. That seems strange too.

When I was an active duty military intelligence analyst, one of the lessons we learned with regard to interrogations was, "Don't argue with someone you're trying to get information from."

It wasn't necessary that we agree with their viewpoint (we were, after all, at war with them), only that we understand their actions would be in accordance with their beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether our answers a "plausible" to you. Our answers are our answers, and our actions are in accordance with them. You don't have to agree with our viewpoint. I personally don't care if you're ever convinced that we're right--that's not my problem to resolve. But our actions shold be in accordance with what what we tell you we believe.