Does apologetics "work"?

[redleghunter]

All I can experience is the natural world. Nothing shows or points to a supernatural reality.

Yet at one time you were convinced you were in the Christian faith. What did you think made you Christian?

 

[Caliban]

Now that is wee bit the clover calling the grass green.

Only if you are under the impression that I claim the supernatural isn't real. I have no idea if it is or isn't. I am making no claim either way. I am only stating that I don't believe it. I am making no truth claim--you however are. Think about which one of us has the burden of proof.

Only if you deny the revelation of Holy Scriptures.

Your choice of words is interesting. I am not convinced that your claim is true. I am not convinced the claims of the Bible are true. You are asking me to do the impossible--the begin with the assumption that these things are in fact true. No, you have to demonstrate that.

 

[Caliban]

Yet at one time you were convinced you were in the Christian faith. What did you think made you Christian?

How is that relevant? I don't want to simply talk about myself--that's boring.

 

[Caliban]

Yet at one time you were convinced you were in the Christian faith. What did you think made you Christian?

Present evidence for your claim please--I don't want to discuss me.

 

[redleghunter]

Present evidence for your claim please--I don't want to discuss me.

But this thread is about you and your journey. I think you need to present evidence of how you were convinced you were in the faith to begin with. Cultural transmission and church life and some personal experiences is what you offer. Can you base this on Scriptures is what makes one a Christian?

 

[Caliban]

But this thread is about you and your journey. I think you need to present evidence of how you were convinced you were in the faith to begin with. Cultural transmission and church life and some personal experiences is what you offer. Can you base this on Scriptures is what makes one a Christian?

I only provided some context by using some personal experiences. But how in the world does exploring my past have anything to do with whether a god or the supernatural is actually true. You could interrogate my beliefs for ten years and come up with nothing of any substance concerning that claim. Why would you ask a guy who doesn't believe in God to give reasons why he used to believe in God?

Wouldn't it be better to ask a believer why they believe in God and explore those ideas?

 

[Caliban]

I have had some interesting discussions on this thread. Curiously, no-one has really mentioned any of the big and most notable arguments. Contingency, Kalam etc...

What are your thoughts about that?

 

[Barney2.0]

What arguments did you find compelling?

In all honesty If I am to ask myself why I am still a Christian, one of it would be the unbroken the Apostolic tradition and succession that goes back to the Apostles, no religion has a reliable chain that actually goes back to its founder like Christianity can and no religion on earth has the same theological continuity Christianity has, I can go back to to Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, and they all believe the exact stuff I believe. Learning about the Trinity and Christology were also a major part of my journey that helped keep me in Christianity. Christianity has taken the best out of both the worlds it came into contact with, it does not proclaim the primitive concepts of the Jews and yet it avoids the mad polytheism of the Greeks. It has taken the basic monotheistic truth from the Jews and the philosophical eloquence of the Greeks. No other worldview can so successfully claim to do that and still proclaim truth.

 

[Caliban]

In all honesty If I am to ask myself why I am still a Christian, one of it would be the unbroken the Apostolic tradition and succession that goes back to the Apostles, no religion has a reliable chain that actually goes back to its founder like Christianity can and no religion on earth has the same theological continuity Christianity has, I can go back to to Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, and they all believe the exact stuff I believe. Learning about the Trinity and Christology were also a major part of my journey that helped keep me in Christianity. Christianity has taken the best out of both the worlds it came into contact with, it does not proclaim the primitive concepts of the Jews and yet it avoids the mad polytheism of the Greeks. It has taken the basic monotheistic truth from the Jews and the philosophical eloquence of the Greeks. No other worldview can so successfully claim to do that and still proclaim truth.

Thank you sharing your thoughts with me--very thoughtful. I appreciate it.

 

[DamianWarS]

What might a person like me not understand?

I don't mean comprehenion. Typically in apologetics sides are presented but not received.

Why should I believe there is something outside of the natural world?

Faith is belief. The question is not really is there something beyond the natural world because that's not the point but is there a God. If there is a God then of course belief in him is valuable and beneficial.

This sounds like Gould's idea of NOMA (Non Overlapping Magisteria). The problem though, is this. A completely undetectable God could theoretically exist; but, the Bible presents an active and a personal God which does act in the natural world. Shouldn't we be able to observe the effects of those actions? From a window we know the wind blows because the tree moves. I didn't have to personally feel the wind, but I have evidence of it. If God acts in the world, his activity will leave a trace, an imprint--something detectable and observable.

Since you have said to already once believe I'll feel more comfortable being free with accounts in the bible without the need to provide back stories.

The bible tells us the God harden Pharaoh heart but it also tells us Pharaoh harden his own heart. So which is it? One shows a God who is actively involved the other absent. The difference is perspective. We see what we want to see. Biblical accounts are written around the bigger moments where the power of God is manifested but there are large gaps between the accounts where nothing is written. Are those moments and the people that dwell in them not important? Christ tells Thomas "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" and this is what faith is.

Science will aim at explaining every phenomenon but faith is about belief of God that is beyond science that ultimate has not just control over all things but intimately is involved. If you enjoy science by all means continue to study it but it's never going to point to God, God however is there, it's your choice to see him and to connect with him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

For what it is worth, I am guessing you have experienced some trauma and no longer connect with your heart. This is why you present as supremely rational because matters of the heart are too painful to process. If you had genuine faith you have lost contact with it.

The journey to truth must be beyond the 5 senses and powers of observation. So you have limited your quest by using the wrong tools.

At a heart level, we have a conscience and an intuition and the infinite space in which He dwells. Herein lies the voice of truth you have disconnected from.

Just sayin...

 

[Caliban]

Typically in apologetics sides are presented but not received.

What do you mean received? Do you mean steel manned? Do you mean believed? It isn't clear?

Christ tells Thomas "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" and this is what faith is.

Science will aim at explaining every phenomenon but faith is about belief of God that is beyond science that ultimate has not just control over all things but intimately is involved. God is there, it's your choice to see him.

This is the problem: How could I exercise faith if I do not already believe?

I can't have faith that Allah is God because I don't believe it.
I can't have faith that aliens have visited the earth because I don't believe the claims.
According to you faith precedes belief--how exactly does that work?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It was by grace alone through faith alone. I held to the 5 Sola's.

Then we do well to remember that one only comes to a saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit and not of our works or persuasive arguments. In Acts 17, Paul was put in a similar situation in which the philosophical intellectual elites of Athens tried to challenge him to a theological debate. His response was simple. He merely stated the truth that was revealed to him and had a "take it or leave it" attitude before he left them. Some actually followed him! The point is that Paul didn't waste his time debating and arguing the truth. He just proclaimed it. Furthermore, Jesus himself didn't waste his time "casting pearls before swine". Which is why he prefaced his parables by saying "Whoever has ears let them hear" (Matthew 11:15). Likewise, it would be foolish to debate and argue heavenly things to those who only understand earthly things. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can one understand heavenly truths and be saved. We can plant the seeds of truth, but it is God who makes them grow. It would also be helpful to revisit the parable of the sower.

 

[Caliban]

For what it is worth, I am guessing you have experienced some trauma and no longer connect with your heart. This is why you present as supremely rational because matters of the heart are too painful to process. If you had genuine faith you have lost contact with it.

The journey to truth must be beyond the 5 senses and powers of observation. So you have limited your quest by using the wrong tools.

At a heart level, we have a conscience and an intuition and the infinite space in which He dwells. Herein lies the voice of truth you have disconnected from.

Just sayin...

I assume you meant me--if not I apologize. So you think I can no longer connect to my heart? That's a very weird thing o say about someone you do not know. How might you have come by this information? I assume you don't claim to be psychic.

 

[Caliban]

Furthermore, Jesus himself didn't waste his time "casting pearls before swine".

This is often why Christians come across as so charming.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I assume you meant me--if not I apologize. So you think I can no longer connect to my heart? That's a very weird thing o say about someone you do not know. How might you have come by this information? I assume you don't claim to be psychic.

If I am wrong I apologise - you express a reluctance to talk about yourself. You have avoided comment around how you 'lost' your faith. There is a strong possibility I am right. This is not rocket science - nor do I need some special gift to suggest this. It is a logical question to ask !!

If I am wrong, just say...

 

[Caliban]

If I am wrong I apologise - you express a reluctance to talk about yourself. You have avoided comment around how you 'lost' your faith. There is a strong possibility I am right. This is not rocket science - nor do I need some special gift to suggest this. It is a logical question to ask !!

If I am wrong, just say...

You are quite wrong. Sorry if I got a bit snappy, but the folks on this forum jump to the moon with assumptions and conclusions. When I say I lost my faith, I don't mean that as a negative thing. My life drastically improved. I appreciate my wife and kids more because I want to love them well in the only life we have together. I cherish every day now because I know there is no such thing as eternity.

When you jump to the conclusion that something bad must have happened, you infer incorrectly. The only negative thing has been the other religious people in my life who try to make me feel like trash because they have some theological idea in their head about a reality that contrasts completely with experience. Please make fewer assumptions.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

This is often why Christians come across as so charming.

We can be charming...when we want to. But the point of that scripture, that so many misunderstand, is that we shouldn't get so frustrated when faced with rejection by the skeptic. The point isn't that you, as a skeptic, are "swine". Rather, that it is foolish to be frustrated because the skeptic doesn't value scripture the same way they do. Which is understandable, in my opinion, if the skeptic is not yet convinced that Scripture is credible. In this case, proving God through scripture is like reading a nursery rhyme to prove that cows can jump over the moon. One must convince the skeptic that scripture is authoritative and credible first before scripture can be used to sway them.

 

[Caliban]

One must convince the skeptic that scripture is authoritative and credible first before scripture can be used to sway them.

How do you do that? It's a heavy lift.

 

[DamianWarS]

What do you mean received? Do you mean steel manned? Do you mean believed? It isn't clear?

steal manning is a methodology and sure you can use that if you wish but I have never seen a debate where one person changes their mind. I can't force you to believe in anything, God reveals God, not me.

This is the problem: How could I exercise faith if I do not already believe?

I can't have faith that Allah is God because I don't believe it.
I can't have faith that aliens have visited the earth because I don't believe the claims.
According to you faith precedes belief--how exactly does that work?

Allah is a name of God (just like G-O-D is a name of God). These are names that people from various cultures give God just like Musikavanhu is the name of God in Zimbabwe. But they are just words and their meanings are hollow without faith, just like anything they can be used for any sort of faith and they may be misused.

This idea that faith comes before belief isn't something I can identify with uniquely and I wouldn't want to commit to saying it but perhaps I came across that way. to me, faith and belief are a journey and I don't control it for you so I'm not about to dictate how you identify with these words.

you are a former "believer" by your own admission and spend your time on Christian forums speaking about apologetics. so what do you want to get out of this? if you want to find God no one is stopping you but yourself. Jesus asked Peter "who do you say I am?" and after Peter answered Jesus says "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven". in the end it is only God who can reveal God and whatever amount of dialogue or argument you encounter here will always be limited. Jesus says to follow him you must first deny your self. "self" is everything that gets's in the way of the following part and for some, if it is an addiction to drugs or a lifestyle change then these things must be denied but belief may be the easy part however for others it is a surrender of disbelief that is needed. I'm sure you've been here long enough to know there is no argument to convince you and the only obstacle in your belief is yourself.

There is a study of the bible I can direct you too that is focused on bringing our natural revelation from God. It is not a commentary or someone telling you what to think, it is simply biblical accounts that I'm sure you're already aware of and 4 questions you answer after each passage in any way you desire. It is best done in groups or at least with one or two other people and there is no pre-requisite of belief needed, any individual may be from any background. If you're interested I can direct you to it. If you're not you can continue what you've been doing.