• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why was the cross necessary?

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,059
1,399
sg
✟271,816.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes from the other end of the path. Jesus foretold everything. There would be no need to preach death, burial and resurrection without the reason, the Kingdom. There would be no need to preach a Gospel of the Kingdom if the future King dd not first do what was required of Him to bring it about. The Kingdom was not of this world.. everyone dies.. The Hebrew people were not ignorant of the Kingdom or the future life it represented. The gentiles were.

Matthew 16
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

You mean Peter could be preaching something that he actually rebuke Jesus for?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,635
9,262
up there
✟379,634.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You mean Peter could be preaching something that he actually rebuke Jesus for?
Yes because Jesus put him in his place when He called Peter an adversary to the will of God which was to 'go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.'. I doubt Peter made that mistake again.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,059
1,399
sg
✟271,816.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes because Jesus put him in his place when He called Peter an adversary to the will of God which was to 'go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.'. I doubt Peter made that mistake again.

So, after Jesus did all that, he ended up so convinced that Jesus would be raised from the dead, that he disowned Jesus publicly before the latter was crucified?

The 12 were also equally convinced that he would raised from the dead, that none of them end up camping outside the tomb on the 3rd day anticipating his resurrection?

When the women first told them Jesus's body is missing from the tomb, they thought someone stole the body?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,635
9,262
up there
✟379,634.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So, after Jesus did all that, etc.

Like Jesus said, many would hear and few would understand. But in their minds the Kingdom was a reality. They weren't to concerned of the how. Neither should most Christians be. Jesus did not find it essential to throw the how into the Lord's Prayer did he. It was enough to say 'Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven..' There is the entire purpose. God reunited with His people. Only a religion that would set aside the Kingdom to return to an earthly institution would find it necessary to change the story to suit their purposes and focus on the death burial and resurrection while ignoring the Kingdom and governance of God. That would interfere with the worldly church and the will and doctrines of man created to govern the people themselves, pretending they were doing it in God's name..
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,059
1,399
sg
✟271,816.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like Jesus said, many would hear and few would understand. But in their minds the Kingdom was a reality. They weren't to concerned of the how. Neither should most Christians be. Jesus did not find it essential to throw the how into the Lord's Prayer did he. It was enough to say 'Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven..' There is the entire purpose. God reunited with His people. Only a religion that would set aside the Kingdom to return to an earthly institution would find it necessary to change the story to suit their purposes and focus on the death burial and resurrection while ignoring the Kingdom and governance of God. That would interfere with the worldly church and the will and doctrines of man created to govern the people themselves, pretending they were doing it in God's name..

Scripture tells us that the good news preached in the 4 Gospels, by the 12, cannot be the death burial and resurrection of Christ. I have provided the evidence for you.

Thus, the Gospel of the Kingdom is not about the death burial and resurrection, that was the gospel committed to Paul (1 Cor 15:1-4)
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,635
9,262
up there
✟379,634.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Thus, the Gospel of the Kingdom is not about the death burial and resurrection, that was the gospel committed to Paul (1 Cor 15:1-4)
So you are saying that Paul's addenda was more important than the reason it happened in the first place, to reunite God with mankind? Why do humans want to make it about me, me, me? Look at me, I'm saved and never mind God or His governance or His Kingdom.
 
Upvote 0

ForHimbyHim

Active Member
May 18, 2020
165
114
39
Nairobi
✟62,969.00
Country
Kenya
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christians who say other Christians make God out to be blood thirsty remind me of this story...
Joh 6:53-66 ISV 53 So Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I’ll raise him to life on the last day, 55 because my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. 56 The person who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will also live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not the kind that your ancestors ate. They died, but the one who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. 60 When many of his disciples heard this, they said, “This is a difficult statement. Who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing within himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, asked them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you saw the Son of Man going up to the place where he was before? 63 It’s the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I’ve spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some among you who don’t believe...”—because Jesus knew from the beginning those who weren’t believing, as well as the one who would betray him. 65 So he said, “That’s why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father.” 66 As a result, many of his disciples turned back and no longer associated with him.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,528
29,034
Pacific Northwest
✟812,376.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it

One of the elements of Christ's atoning work is our forgiveness, this is true. The exact "mechanism" of this has been described in a number of ways throughout the history of the Church, so attempting to nail down the precise mechanism and the precise details in a nice, clean way is always going to be at least slightly controversial.

But as far as this goes, here is how Lutherans understand that:

Human beings are inherently sinful on account of original sin, indeed so deep and penetrating is the problem of sin in our humanity that it can be described as a total depravity. Now this term "total depravity" tends to conjure certain ideas for some people, but its meaning is actually pretty simple. The word depravity comes from the Latin, depravus, meaning "bent" or "crooked" and the "total" here simply indicates the totality of our humanity, rather than only a part of our humanity. In other words, every dimension of our humanity has been bent and broken by sin, even our human will.

Therefore, since the totality of our humanity is broken, or as Lutherans would say we are homo incurvatus in se, or "humanity curved inward", that is, bent or curved inward upon ourselves so that the natural instincts, desires, and drives--everything from the natural appetites to our emotions, our thoughts, our will, all of it--is bent and broken, curved inward toward ourselves, to seek ourselves. From which springs forth pride, greed, envy, malice, hatred, and every other evil and vice there is.

Therefore, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23), and indeed "no one is righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10).

So man in this condition is estranged from God, out of communion with God, in fact we are in our fallen human nature the enemies of God. Not that God is our enemy, but that we are God's enmity, we are hostile toward God, we despise the good God. So it is therefore impossible for man to be just by his own power, everything we do is distorted, twisted, and misshapen. Even in our most noble of works we are sinners. Therefore the condemnation of the Law is upon us.

What is the condemnation of the Law? It's very simple: The Law is holy and good, and commands that which is good, holy, right, and just. So it is written, "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "You shall have no other gods before Me" and also "bless and do not curse". But what happens when we encounter the Law? Do we do what the Law commands? No, we don't, we fail to do what the Law commands. So we see the Law say to love our neighbors, and we do not love our neighbors. The Law acts like a mirror, revealing us in our sin, as naked and bare before God in His supreme justice and goodness. This is the wrath of God, not that God is up in heaven fuming in anger toward us; but rather that as sinners we behold the holiness and justice of God through His Law, and what we ought to be and that we are not. I am not holy, I am not righteous, I am not good, I am not loving before and under the Law. Under the Law I find in myself only wretchedness, wickedness, despair, and vainglory.

So who then can be saved?

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26

So since I am not righteous, I am in need of a righteousness that is outside of myself. And God has supplied that righteousness.

Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, is that righteousness. For where Adam--and indeed all of us who are in Adam--has failed, sinned, being disobedient, Christ is righteous, being obedient even to the point of death. So that Christ, the Just One, by His righteous obedience, even to the point of death on the cross, is given to me as pure gift, pure grace, which God appropriates to me through faith.

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an atonement by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over former sins. It was to show His righteousness at the present time, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:21-26

Thus Christ, by His righteous obedience, His suffering and death, provides the only merit of value before God, that is true righteousness. And this was for you, for me, for all sinners everywhere. That God is just, and justifies the unjust by His grace. Giving us the righteousness of Jesus Christ as pure grace, pure gift.

There is, therefore, forgiveness of our sins; not because God couldn't just forgive (because of course He can). Rather, more than forgiveness, we have obtained mercy. I am not just forgiven, I am cleansed of all unrighteousness, I have a righteousness before God that is mine through faith, by the grace of God--the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

In fact, we have been clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27).

Even still we have been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and so we have been raised with Christ. And therefore participate in His life, even in the deathliness of these mortal bodies and the sin that infects all of our members. We are alive, for Christ makes us a live. We were dead in our trespasses, but God made us alive together with Christ, so that we are alive to God (Ephesians 2:4-6).

And thus we have peace with God. No longer strangers and enemies, but friends and children. God has taken us into His House, washed us and clothed us with His righteousness, seated us at His table, and adopted us as His sons and daughters.

This, of course, isn't everything. There is so much more to what Christ did. But this, this is the forgiveness of our sins, the end of hostilities between God and man, the shalom of God which is between God and man in Jesus Christ.

You are forgiven, your sins are cleansed, washed away, you have the righteousness of Jesus Christ that is by grace through faith. That makes you just before God. Therefore before God you are found blameless on account of Christ. Does that mean that you can live however you want, or that good works don't matter, or that there shouldn't be repentance, or that there is no daily struggle against the old man and toward the new obedience? Of course not. But you are justified by these things, you are justified by the grace of God; who and what you are in Christ is what matters before God. Now, on account of these things, go and love your neighbor, now go and feed the hungry, now go and give drink to the thirsty. As the Lord has said, "Go and do likewise."

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,059
1,399
sg
✟271,816.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you are saying that Paul's addenda was more important than the reason it happened in the first place, to reunite God with mankind? Why do humans want to make it about me, me, me? Look at me, I'm saved and never mind God or His governance or His Kingdom.

You need to understand Romans 9-11 to understand the background.
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,685
416
Canada
✟306,478.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, by the 'cross' I really meant the question why did Jesus have to die at all, in whatever way.

It is actually simple mathematics.

Human (angel as well) behavior forms a normal distribution (bell shape) as long as freewill is granted. Freewill in the end means one (a human or an angel) is given the ability to oppose God or reject God. God on the other hand is to run an eternity (which we call Heaven). By math (statistics and probabilities), some will thus reject God in this eternity to be run. God's job is to "remove" them, in order secure such an eternity where everyone is living happily with God, including God Himself.

The analogy is you have built a large mansion then invite all your friends and relatives to live in your mansion. They should thus follow your rules, they will be kicked out if they choose to shout at night or train your kids up to be criminals, murderers or prostitutes. That's how God's Law was set up for the purpose of securing His own dwelling place. In math there is a mathematical expected outcome. By the degree of freewill given, the expected outcome for angels is that there would 2/3 angels capable of living with God in such an eternity, 1/3 will in the end choose to oppose or reject God in one way or another (basically by breaking His Law). They in the end with thus be "kicked out" of Heaven. They will be separated from those continue to live with God. This is permanent and is referred to as a permanent separation. This is to facilitate a "mansion" of a God who is completely sin-incompatible. (we can't possibly know exactly how such an eternity shall be run, we can guess though)

The expected outcome for humans is that less than 1/3 of them can live with God in an eternity. 2/3 of them will have to leave into the same permanent separation as prepared for the angels. God's job is to set up an open standard (i.e., His Law) to have them identified before the building of the final Heaven (referred to as New Earth and New Heaven). God thus will somehow "remove" the 1/3 angels and more than 2/3 humans to the permanent separation before they can set foot on the soil of this Heaven to be built, by using an open standard (which is Law) by given an extended period of time (to humans within a life time is good enough).

On the other hand, Heaven is a place with capable angels interacting with the much less intelligent humans. Eden was built so, Earth is built so with the capable angels interacting with humans in one way or another. Angels (actually fallen angels by disobeying God) will thus choose to influence humans. Under the circumstance, the more capable fallen angels can drive humans to an extent that the actual outcome is 0. That is no human can pass a judgment of the set open standard (which is Law) to enter Heaven. By the open standard set (which is Law) and being witnessed openly (by all capable angels and chosen saints), no humans inside the establishment we call planet earth can be saved, after driven out of Eden and being under the influence of Satan and his angels. It means Satan successfully altered the expected outcome of humans from the planned less than 1/3 to absolute 0. At this point (the point of Noah) then, what right given by Law itself is to have earth complete destroyed, as a result of influence cast by the capable angels which altered the mathematical expected outcome from 1/3 to 0. By Law, then God shall have destroyed earth completely with a flood.

.......

God's plan B is to use a series of covenants as a judgment tool instead of Law for humans. When covenants are used instead of Law, the expected outcome for humans can thus be retained. With the Judgment by Covenant carried out by Jesus Christ, there will be less than 1/3 humans saved as planned. However by Law there must be a justification such that humans can be judged by covenants instead of Law. This justification turns out to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ Himself.

As for what that permanent separation could mean, it belongs to another topic.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,635
9,262
up there
✟379,634.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
OK, let me rephrase that... Would there be salvation if Christ had not died?
Resurrection after a long life and natural death of covid for Jesus would lose the symbolism of the conflict of the will of man against the will of God. Jesus taught the Kingdom/governance of God over mankind would once again be the dominant factor. His will be done, not ours. This 'salvation' in the previous sentence was His 'good news'. You tell me, does the grace of God require payment or is it a gift? If it can't be earned then why teach it can be bought? Jesus' message was clear. the Kingdom of God had come and the will of man could no longer prevent it, as God proven by counter-acting what man had done to rid itself of the Messiah. How much of a factor was the later betrayal of the church in rejoining the world of man three hundred years later, on how Jesus' message was portrayed? Would it condemn itself for abandoning God's Kingdom for one of it's own making modelled on previous institutions of man and emulating the Pharisees of Jesus' time? Or would it find a way around it?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
65
St. Louis
✟32,893.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think there is a lot in all of these responses, thanks everyone. Yes, I think this verse is the answer for me. It says that God suffered the crucifixion himself and the reason for it was a personal one: He wanted an ultimate demonstration of His love to us while we were still sinners. If God wanted to demonstrate His love to us and choose this way to do it, who am I to question this? Thanks mkgal.

You are in the right book. :) Read Romans a lot and Hebrews, but it still is hard to just sum up for sure. Of course we have to understand that this is Gods creation, and we are His creation, this is His show and He can do what He wants. And times were a lot different back in the day.

He started it out teaching us that there would have to be the death of a innocent animal to "cover" us until the Christ, the Lamb of God would come to die and take away our sins once and for all.

This was carried on through the Bible over hundreds of years by the Israelites and the animal sacrifices of the Tent and Temple. All these were types and shadows of the ultimate sacrifice to come when the fulness of time had come, and God sent His Son.

So His death and shedding of blood is rooted in the OT in a time that we in this day and age are very unfamiliar with. And it is hard to wrap our minds around it.

Also, prophecy had to be fulfilled as to confirm the identity of the sacrifice and the Messiah, and the cross was the method. If we read Psalm 22, that describes His death on the cross. Add Is. 52ish and 53 too.

This was the timeframe God chose for all this to happen, when the cross was being used by Rome. BTW, This was quoted in the end of the song "Hang onto your life", by the Guess Who. :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,294
6,495
63
✟596,843.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Resurrection after a long life and natural death of covid for Jesus would lose the symbolism of the conflict of the will of man against the will of God. Jesus taught the Kingdom/governance of God over mankind would once again be the dominant factor. His will be done. This 'salvation' was His 'good news'. You tell me, does the grace of God require payment or is it a gift? If it can't be earned then why teach it can be bought? Jesus' message was clear. the Kingdom of God had come and the will of man could no longer prevent it, as God proven by counter-acting what man had done to rid itself of the Messiah. How much of a factor was the later betrayal of the church in rejoining the world of man three hundred years later, on how Jesus' message was portrayed? Would it condemn itself for abandoning God's Kingdom for one of it's own making modelled on previous institutions of man and emulating the Pharisees of Jesus' time? Or would it find a way around it?
I cannot give away anything that I do not have.

Salvation is a gift that Christ, a fully human man, can give due to the simple fact that He paid a price for a crime that He did not commit.

Thus, He gives us each the "gift" of salvation that He earned the right to give.

Again, I will ask... Would salvation be possible if Christ had not died?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
24,635
9,262
up there
✟379,634.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Again, I will ask... Would salvation be possible if Christ had not died?
A better question would be would resurrection be possible if the Christ had not died. Salvation was a given. God had already announced His will would be done in earth as it was in Heaven. His Kingdom would come. Good news. Jesus demonstrated what it would be like and how it would come about.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,294
6,495
63
✟596,843.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
A better question would be would resurrection be possible if the Christ had not died. Salvation was a given. God had already announced His will would be done in earth as it was in Heaven. His Kingdom would come. Good news. Jesus demonstrated what it would be like and how it would come about.
I'll take that as a Yes?

It's a pretty simple question.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
70
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here’s still yet almost a reader’s digest version of what you consider cryptic (though you may find it not much different ...

Why (did he have to) and where from are (from one view) the same truth.

What the foundation of the world is can be seen in the words “Who told thee that thou wast naked?” though it encompasses the earth laboring to bring forth as the culmination of the sixth day; though Adam falls short of entering in to the rest of a name written that a lamb provided (Rev 13:8) and found in the white stone of who you are, as something given freely though it costs your soul to receive it.

Revelation 11:8 (And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.), is one of the last pictures of this understanding in reference to the soul/mind of mankind that the lamb was slain from the foundation of (the world) and the works finished from (Heb 4:3), yet it is also an end declared from the beginning, which is Him and not a linear path.

Well Scott, I would love to engage with you, but you speak iand write in such a mystical way, I can't figure it out!

Now I went to Bible College and I learned all the fancy theological terms, but I am a blue collar guy! I dust off and use the fancy theological terms when needed, but for the most pasrt, talk to people like people and not some sort of ascended mystic.
 
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
65
Virginia Beach
✟64,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well Scott, I would love to engage with you, but you speak iand write in such a mystical way, I can't figure it out!

Now I went to Bible College and I learned all the fancy theological terms, but I am a blue collar guy! I dust off and use the fancy theological terms when needed, but for the most pasrt, talk to people like people and not some sort of ascended mystic.

Some things are impossible to put into words ... but I have found that God can teach you more in a moment then all those who have ever lived can teach you in a life time.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,806
1,920
✟987,535.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
First off, I apologise for not answering your question. I needed more time to think about it! When I wrote a later response supporting substitution I meant that it seems, somehow, to be a part of the deep mystery of atonement because Jesus suffered the crucifixion and we did not but we're still able to be forgiven and brought into a right relationship with God as a consequence of it.

It does sound a good starting point to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement. It was interesting what you say in that lin Lev. 5 the sin offering is a "penalty for the sin", not a substitution for the sinner. It's a "punishment" for the sinner or, as you say, a better way to put it is that it's a "discipling" (as well as forgiving) the sinner. It's a relevant point you make that in the interests of justice the penalty/punishment/discipline administered by the priest is proportionate to the person's ability to pay, so a rich man may have to sacrifice a goat and a poor man a bag of flour. It's also proportionate to the sin which is also just. You also note that there was no atonement for major sins such as wilful disobedience to God. Banishment or the death sentence was employed instead. I hope I got all that right. This was new to me and very interesting especially the idea of "punishment" as "discipline" which gives it a positive purpose.

You ask for some questions. What kind of sins were regard as major ones for which there was no atonement and why did the the priests feel they were unable to give an atoning penance for these? Did they believe only God (a greater Priest) ould make atonement for these sins? Also, you mention that forgiveness was not a part of the atonement process so what meaning did forgiveness have to the people of this time?
Take all the time you need, I am not going anywhere, but might take time to answer you back.

I am use to writing long responses to questions I receive from my Chinese friends especially in Communist Chine where they have limited accesses, so we do more just once a week or fewer times.

If you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy you will read details of all kinds of sins. Sins directly against God can be as simple as picking up sticks for a fire on the Sabbath, which results in the stoning of the sinner. Most of the sexual sins result in death. The few sins that do not result in banishment or death have to do with “lusting” after something your neighbor has and you take or do not give back, so these result in fines and sacrifices, with forgiveness coming afterwards.

The sins requiring death or banishment have no punishment/discipline (atonement) which allows the sinner continue living in the Promised Land. The death or banishment are fair/just punishments (and in a way disciplines) for rebellious disobedience, but if the Jews had done their job and saw to these punishments there would have been no one left in the Promised Land. The Jews thus wound up realizing and strongly desiring another way to be disciplined and forgiven for rebellious disobedience. This other way comes with the cross and only with the cross. This is not to say: God/Christ could not forgive sinners without atonement (discipling), since like I just said fair/just disciplining was not possible and have the sinner live for rebellious sins.

God/Christ could and did forgive without the need for the cross, but those children were not fairly/justly disciplined for their sins. We can now experience empathetically being crucified with Christ.

Forgiveness is very much what everyone wants and God is very much willing and wanting to forgive everyone and is doing His part perfectly. The problem is with man’s humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity. If the sinner is not willing to go through the atonement process of being disciplined (crucified with Christ) often explaining it away as something God required for Himself, then does that sinner really want forgiveness? We might need to study Matt. 18: 21-35.

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?



The priest is not the one determining fair/just discipline, but is allowing the sinner to experience worship.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0