Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Timtofly]

And in 1Thess 4 we have the term "dead in Christ".

The dead in Christ are not dead.

 

[iamlamad]

The dead in Christ are not dead.

Their body is. And without much doubt, a doctor examined each one and declared that the body was dead. But all that means is that the spirit and soul LEFT (separated from) the dead physical body. But not to worry! On the Resurrection day, God will raise all those dead bodies: the dust will turn back into bodies, and the Power of the Holy Spirit will fly them up out of the graves, turn them into resurrection bodies, and the Spriits who come with Jesus will once again join with their new bodies and they will be whole again: a triune being.

 

[iamlamad]

John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Matt 5
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

YOU GO, BOB! Good job!

 

[BABerean2]

Their body is. And without much doubt, a doctor examined each one and declared that the body was dead. But all that means is that the spirit and soul LEFT (separated from) the dead physical body. But not to worry! On the Resurrection day, God will raise all those dead bodies: the dust will turn back into bodies, and the Power of the Holy Spirit will fly them up out of the graves, turn them into resurrection bodies, and the Spriits who come with Jesus will once again join with their new bodies and they will be whole again: a triune being.

And the timing of that resurrection, and judgment of the dead is found below, as confirmed by the Apostle Paul.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1. Those who are asleep
2. who have fallen asleep in Jesus
3. the Dead in Christ

The dead in Christ are not dead.

 

[BobRyan]

And the timing of that resurrection, and judgment of the dead is found below, as confirmed by the Apostle Paul.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.

Indeed the living righteous are taken to heaven and the dead in Christ are raised up and taken to heaven at the 2nd coming.

And what about the others that are alive at that time - who are not among the saints?

Rev 19
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[BobRyan]

So then -- the saints -- taken to heaven at the 2nd coming ... as Christ said "I will come again"

Matthew 5:16 glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;

John 14
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Matt 5
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[BobRyan]

The Great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, is a Day years before and quite different from the Great Day of the Lord Almighty, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11

until you read 2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1. Those who are asleep
2. who have fallen asleep in Jesus
3. the Dead in Christ

Is this a dispensational ideology? Or just semantics for the same group of people, the body of Christ, the church, the bride?

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1. Those who are asleep
2. who have fallen asleep in Jesus
3. the Dead in Christ

Is this a dispensational ideology? Or just semantics for the same group of people, the body of Christ, the church, the bride?

It is 1 Thess 4 - Paul is the author. He is an Apostle in the body of Christ. And we are just the readers of his text, noting the terms he uses.

He says "the dead in Christ rise first"
And John says the "first resurrection" happens at the 2nd coming in Rev 20:4-5 -- so then 1 Thess 4 is describing the 2nd coming.

 

[iamlamad]

And the timing of that resurrection, and judgment of the dead is found below, as confirmed by the Apostle Paul.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

No, 1 thes. 4 & 5 shows us the rapture of the church. Also 1 Cor. 15

 

[iamlamad]

It is 1 Thess 4 - Paul is the author. He is an Apostle in the body of Christ. And we are just the readers of his text, noting the terms he uses.

He says "the dead in Christ rise first"
And John says the "first resurrection" happens at the 2nd coming in Rev 20:4-5 -- so then 1 Thess 4 is describing the 2nd coming.

the "first resurrection" happens at the 2nd coming This is not truth. There is no "timing" given for the "first" resurrection. It is for all the righteous and started with Jesus Christ. It is not "first" in time: it is first in honor. John wrote it in chapter 20, long after the rapture of the church. The resurrected church is seen seated on thrones judging.

 

[iamlamad]

Indeed the living righteous are taken to heaven and the dead in Christ are raised up and taken to heaven at the 2nd coming.

And what about the others that are alive at that time - who are not among the saints?

Rev 19
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Sorry, but that is only the rest of those who came to Armageddon, not the rest of all living.

 

[iamlamad]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1. Those who are asleep
2. who have fallen asleep in Jesus
3. the Dead in Christ

Only need #3: the dead in Christ

 

[BABerean2]

No, 1 thes. 4 & 5 shows us the rapture of the church. Also 1 Cor. 15

And the verse below proves the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in chapter 5.'
It proves the two chapters are connected.



1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

.....................................................................


The word "But" connects the two chapters.
.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(See Revelation 16:15-16)


.

 

[BobRyan]

Only need #3: the dead in Christ

I was just listing all the terms that we find in 1 Thess 4.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but that is only the rest of those who came to Armageddon, not the rest of all living.

1. It says no one is left to bury the dead - so the "feast of the birds" is seen in Rev 19.
2. "The rest" is after talking about wiping out all the armies. So it is the rest of mankind.
3. The feast of the birds is also predicted in the OT - where the corpses cover the entire earth and no one is there to bury them. Jer 25:33

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

 

[Timtofly]

It is 1 Thess 4 - Paul is the author. He is an Apostle in the body of Christ. And we are just the readers of his text, noting the terms he uses.

He says "the dead in Christ rise first"
And John says the "first resurrection" happens at the 2nd coming in Rev 20:4-5 -- so then 1 Thess 4 is describing the 2nd coming.

Every time a human in Christ dies physically, they are with Christ in person. Paul says those in Christ who are dead will be with Christ at the first return. This is not Paul saying there is a bodily resurrection. The emphasis is on the fact that those presently alive at that return will not prevent them.

How is there a difference between OT and NT believers in Christ? Two things were missing from Adam's disobedience. Paul describes them as incorruption and immortality. The OT believers had to wait until the Cross until there was victory over death. But only the sting of death. This compares to Paul's incorruption. The souls in heaven currently have incorruptible bodies, all of them, both OT and NT. Going with the reading of the text, as Paul does not distinguish between OT and NT believers. ALL in Christ, asleep, as in dead, do not need a physical body, they have an incorruptible body already, being physically dead, and living physical bodies do not prevent them from the bodily resurrection each time a person physically dies. There literally is no physical body to change for those who are physically dead in Christ. The bodily change happened at the moment of physical death.

However there is still the immortality, separated spirit, in Adam's disobedience. John indicates this is only completed in the opening of the 5th seal. So the OT believers had to wait until the Cross to receive incorruption. Now both NT and OT believers have incorruptible bodies, but all must wait until the 5th seal to receive immortality. Immortality being the joining of the spirit and the glorified body of Adam prior to his disobedience. The fulness of being a son of God. The 5th and 6th seal being opened as one. That is when the living physical body is changed in the air to an incorruptible so it can join immediately with the spirit an immortal son of God. There is no need to change dust into anything. Believers in Christ, with Christ already have been changed, all of them. If they were not they would not be with Christ, their souls would be in sheol. Those in sheol are still waiting to have incorruptible bodies. That prepares them for the second death. The lake of fire.

 

[Timtofly]

1. It says no one is left to bury the dead - so the "feast of the birds" is seen in Rev 19.
2. "The rest" is after talking about wiping out all the armies. So it is the rest of mankind.
3. The feast of the birds is also predicted in the OT - where the corpses cover the entire earth and no one is there to bury them. Jer 25:33

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

This will be rectified on the first day of the Millennium. The first (and only) resurrection of physically living humans. Those marked as sheep and wheat, and those beheaded for not taking the mark, will be bodily resurrected. That is why no flesh will be buried for 5+ years. Probably will not be any refrigerated containers sitting around either.

This is the Revelation 20 resurrection and any resurrection prophecy. The 7th Trumpet finally finished, and a new Day resurrection to complete the whole process. Those dead in their sin, will be resurrected to Death. They will be presented at the GWT at the end of the Millennium. I am not going to argue the mechanics of how. Just placing the event in proper order. Revelation is in chronological order. The point is a lot happens in one week. John is pointing out that week as best as he can. From the start of the 7th Trumpet it will either be 8 days, or 8 days plus a 3.5 year interruption. All on earth will be dead, and will be resurrected in that time frame.

This present earth will be restored. Isaiah 65 is that restoration. This is not a new reality. This will be a new geography from what we have today. Satan's deception will be gone. The resurrected descendants of Adam will populate the earth the same as prior to Noah's Flood. The end of the earth after this 1000 years will be in fire.

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation is in chronological order.

Only if you have erased the time of the judgment of the dead from Revelation 11:15-18, and Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16...

These passages prove the book cannot be chronological.

.