God and Sin

[Clizby WampusCat]

You're quite right, the Bible doesn't support this. God is omnipresent and He has special interest in saving sinners. Jesus said this himself in the parables of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, and Lost Son. No sinner would ever be saved if God stayed away from him.

Rom 5:20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.

I agree.

 

[eleos1954]

So they cannot sin? How do you define sin?

Was Jesus not there? He was still in Paul's presence.

That does not matter his spirit can be in the presence of humans.


He did not fully assume our human nature since our human nature includes a sin nature.

You said go dwas spirit? Now he has a face? And Jesus clearly had a face and people saw that?

Could be, others think different. It is unclear.


Genesis 3: 8-10
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

Hid here is used in the past tense. They are no longer hiding when the ensuing conversation with god happens in verses 11-13.



I agree that you believe this. I have no reason to believe it is true.[/QUOTE]

If you truly want to know .... read and study the bible with sincerity .... if not you will just wallow around in ignorance.

You have no reason to believe because you don't pursue knowledge about Him with a sincere heart ... and prefer to respond with sarcasm rather than truly seeking knowledge about God.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If God really doesn't want sin in his presence, the simplest way to deal with it is to remove it. That's what Paul suggests in Rom 6 and elsewhere. In 3:25 has says before Jesus, God passed over sin, but now he is dealing with it. Rom 6 says that in union with Christ we die and sin and rise to new life.

Obviously this isn't complete now, but 1 Cor 3:12 describes a purification.

Thanks for the input. I tend to agree that this is what the bible says but many Christians will disagree.

Jesus' teachings, incidentally, suggest that God is quite happy simply to forgive sin, although he is looking for a certain attitude. One is a willingness to forgive others.

I agree that in the bible God asks us to forgive others it may even be a requirement for salvation if you read the text a certain way. But I do not think the bible indicates that God is willing to forgive sin without the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If God is holy then it is not that God cannot be in the presence of sin, but that sin cannot be in the presence of God.

Just as at night when one puts the light on, the darkness vanishes so God banishes sin.

So how does this work? So when people encountered God their sin vanished while he was around, they become sinless?

How do we have the reports of God being in the presence of sin, they were appearances of Jesus,xwho while he is part of the trinity and is God is also able to put off that ' holiness' so to mingle with sinfull humanity.

How did you determine this?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Hid here is used in the past tense. They are no longer hiding when the ensuing conversation with god happens in verses 11-13.



I agree that you believe this. I have no reason to believe it is true.

If you truly want to know .... read and study the bible with sincerity .... if not you will just wallow around in ignorance.

You have no reason to believe because you don't pursue knowledge about Him with a sincere heart ... and prefer to respond with sarcasm rather than truly seeking knowledge about God.[/QUOTE]Where is sarcasm in my response? No really I want to know.

Maybe instead of accusing me of things you cannot possibly know, just answer the question.

 

[eleos1954]

If you truly want to know .... read and study the bible with sincerity .... if not you will just wallow around in ignorance.

You have no reason to believe because you don't pursue knowledge about Him with a sincere heart ... and prefer to respond with sarcasm rather than truly seeking knowledge about God.

Where is sarcasm in my response? No really I want to know.

Maybe instead of accusing me of things you cannot possibly know, just answer the question.[/QUOTE]

I'm not accusing you of nothing .... what I stated goes for believers as well ... I've been there and done that ..... wallowed around in ignorance ... now I study daily and with sincerity.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I agree this is what the bible teaches. The sacrifice of Jesus is not what his thread is about but that would make a good thread on its own.

It's totally relevant though because you're saying God never made a sacrifice; I'm telling you that he did.

The fact that god did wipe humans all out and essentially started over with Noah and his family shows that if the god of the bible exists, he is immoral. The dead babies thumping against the arks hull attest to that.

First off, the flood may not have been global; it also very easily could have been a local flood, one that covered only the land Noah and his family lived in. If you read up on biblical history, I'm sure you wouldn't feel bad for the kinds of people that got purged essentially; they were much worse than anyone we have around on average today, plus there was the issue of the nephilim which was likely a bigger reason for the flood.

Second, I find it incredibly amusing how you call God immoral for 'the dead babies thumping against the ark'(which let's face it--children almost definitely do not go to hell as they don't have the capacity to understand right from wrong yet, so those dead babies are currently in literal paradise right now)yet there's an entire movement dedicated to legalizing ripping a fetus from a regretful mother's womb, limb by limb stacking it on a metal tray; and that's not 'immoral'.

Besides that, on a philosophical level there is no such thing as definite rights and wrongs, as we've discussed many, many times. And even if there were, should God exist(in your eyes)HE is the one who defines 'right and wrong'--not you and not myself.

 

[Andrewn]

I did not choose to be a sinner, I was made one before I was born per the bible.

My Bible doesn't say this. Your observations show knowledge of the Bible but I'm wondering if your information is based on Calvinist understanding with Baptist overtones. I could be wrong, but this is not the main issue.

You know that God created human beings with "free will." If you or I chose to be sinners, this is our choice, not God's. We are not victims, here. We are free-willed offenders.

He did not fully assume our human nature since our human nature includes a sin nature.

Lord Jesus fully assumed our human nature. There is no such a thing as "sin nature" in the Bible. This is a mistranslation in NIV that was mostly corrected in the 2011 edition.

But yes, human beings have a tendency toward self-preservation that frequently conflicts with the law of love. Jesus had the same human tendency but he did not sin.

You reject a misleading version of Christianity that I also reject.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Where is sarcasm in my response? No really I want to know.

Maybe instead of accusing me of things you cannot possibly know, just answer the question.

I'm not accusing you of nothing .... what I stated goes for believers as well ... I've been there and done that ..... wallowed around in ignorance ... now I study daily and with sincerity.[/QUOTE]So you accuse me of being sarcastic then when challenged you say you never accused me of being sarcastic. You also accused me of not studying sincerely while not having any ability to actually know that. I You will look more sincere if you actually address the questions instead of accusing the other person of insincerity. That is not convincing.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It's totally relevant though because you're saying God never made a sacrifice; I'm telling you that he did.

Show me where I said this please.

First off, the flood may not have been global; it also very easily could have been a local flood, one that covered only the land Noah and his family lived in.

This would be hard to show with the biblical texts.

If you read up on biblical history, I'm sure you wouldn't feel bad for the kinds of people that got purged essentially; they were much worse than anyone we have around on average today, plus there was the issue of the nephilim which was likely a bigger reason for the flood.

Wow, you think babies deserved to be drowned?

Second, I find it incredibly amusing how you call God immoral for 'the dead babies thumping against the ark'(which let's face it--children almost definitely do not go to hell as they don't have the capacity to understand right from wrong yet, so those dead babies are currently in literal paradise right now)...

Tell me where in the Bible it states that babies go right to heaven. Also, even if they do, you still think it is OK to drown them and make them suffer that death? Could God have figured out a way to fix the situation without killing almost everyone? If so, then he made the choice to kill them. If not, then maybe he is not as powerful or good as you think he is.

...yet there's an entire movement dedicated to legalizing ripping a fetus from a regretful mother's womb, limb by limb stacking it on a metal tray; and that's not 'immoral'.

You made an error here by assuming that I am pro choice. I am not, I am pro life. I think abortion is an immoral act.

Besides that, on a philosophical level there is no such thing as definite rights and wrongs, as we've discussed many, many times. And even if there were, should God exist(in your eyes)HE is the one who defines 'right and wrong'--not you and not myself.

And I strongly disagree with what he defines as right and wrong based on empathy, evidence and reason. Show me that the god of the bible exists and I will still have to conclude that he has acted immorally in the past.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

My Bible doesn't say this. Your observations show knowledge of the Bible but I'm wondering if your information is based on Calvinist understanding with Baptist overtones. I could be wrong, but this is not the main issue.

You know that God created human beings with "free will." If you or I chose to be sinners, this is our choice, not God's. We are not victims, here. We are free-willed offenders.

The bible says that we are sinful from birth. How can a baby be considered to choose to be sinful? Psalm 51:5.

Lord Jesus fully assumed our human nature. There is no such a thing as "sin nature" in the Bible. This is a mistranslation in NIV that was mostly corrected in the 2011 edition.

But yes, human beings have a tendency toward self-preservation that frequently conflicts with the law of love. Jesus had the same human tendency but he did not sin.

You reject a misleading version of Christianity that I also reject.

Ok, but many Christians will reject your version as well and claim the bible as their authority. Why should I believe your version over theirs?

 

[Andrewn]

Have you ever wondered why God asks you to forgive others without a sacrifice but is unwilling to do that himself?

God requires a sacrifice before he will accept you into heaven, to remove your sin. God asks you to forgive others without anything else, no sacrifice or anything. He is unwilling to do what he asks you to do.

I agree that in the bible God asks us to forgive others it may even be a requirement for salvation if you read the text a certain way. But I do not think the bible indicates that God is willing to forgive sin without the sacrifice of Jesus.

Who was sacrificed on the cross? It was the God, wasn't it? God does not demand a sacrifice. He offered himself as a sacrifice. He knew that world authorities would crucify Him but still was embodied in the world to reveal his true character. He took our human nature in order to redeem it.

 

[bling]

I asked this question in another thread that was recently closed. I am confused when people say that God cannot be in the presence of sin. I have heard this said many times for a reason why we need our sin removed before we can be with God. I even said this when I was a christian. My confusion is that the bible does not seem to support this assertion. There are many examples of God being in the presence of people or sinful beings. Here are some:

Genesis 3 has God in the garden with Adam and Eve after they sinned.
The story of Job tells about Satan and God having a conversion in the presence of each other. God showed His backside to Moses.
Isaiah chapter 6 tells of being in the presence of God.
See also 2 Chron 18.
Jer 23 says God is everywhere and in the presence of sinful people.
The Damascus experience of Paul where Jesus shows up.
And then there is Jesus as fully God in the presence of sinners 24/7 for his entire life.

I never questioned this as a Christian. If you believe this how do you reconcile these verses? If not, then why do we need Jesus to be with God?

God can be around sin.

 

[ChetSinger]

The bible says that we are sinful from birth. How can a baby be considered to choose to be sinful? Psalm 51:5.

We're born with an inbuilt corrupt nature that is guaranteed to eventually choose to sin. But we're not born guilty because, as you say, babies can't choose to be sinful. If I believed otherwise I should belong to a church that practices infant baptism. And I don't.

Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God we have to become like little children. That means little children are welcomed into the Father's presence just as they are. When I connect the dots I deduce that little children aren't guilty. And that's what my denomination (Grace Brethren) teaches so we practice a believer's baptism.

 

[Andrewn]

The bible says that we are sinful from birth. How can a baby be considered to choose to be sinful? Psalm 51:5.

This is poetic language, not literal:

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Ps 22:31 His righteous acts will be told to those not yet born. They will hear about everything he has done.

Ps 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Psalm 8:2 Through the praise of children and infants you have established a stronghold against your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.

Ps 96:12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is in it. Then all the trees of the woods will rejoice

Ok, but many Christians will reject your version as well and claim the bible as their authority. Why should I believe your version over theirs?

You have the God-given free will to believe what makes sense to you. If it is atheism at this time then be it, so long you're aware of the whole menu available to you.

There are Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Traditional Protestants, and Credobaptists. You only reject the latter's beliefs.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Who was sacrificed on the cross? It was the God, wasn't it? God does not demand a sacrifice. He offered himself as a sacrifice. He knew that world authorities would crucify Him but still was embodied in the world to reveal his true character. He took our human nature in order to redeem it.

I think we are talking past each other. I am talking about god requiring a sacrifice, not that he required sacrifice from others.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

We're born with an inbuilt corrupt nature that is guaranteed to eventually choose to sin. But we're not born guilty because, as you say, babies can't choose to be sinful. If I believed otherwise I should belong to a church that practices infant baptism. And I don't.

So babies are sinful but because they don't choose it they are off the hook?

Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God we have to become like little children. That means little children are welcomed into the Father's presence just as they are. When I connect the dots I deduce that little children aren't guilty. And that's what my denomination (Grace Brethren) teaches so we practice a believer's baptism.

When does this stop being the case?

 

[Andrewn]

I think we are talking past each other. I am talking about god requiring a sacrifice, not that he required sacrifice from others.

God does not require a sacrifice in order to forgive people.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is poetic language, not literal:

How do you justify this?

You have the God-given free will to believe what makes sense to you. If it is atheism at this time then be it, so long you're aware of the whole menu available to you.

Atheism is not a belief. I don't believe in atheism. It is a lack of belief. I believe in humanism.

I am aware of the menu but everything on the menu has not been demonstrated to be true. When one does I will believe that.

There are Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Traditional Protestants, and Credobaptists. You only reject and vilify the latter but they're the majority in the CF.

Where did I vilify anyone?

 

[Andrewn]

How do you justify this?

I quoted verses from the Psalms that are clearly allegorical. Psalms are poetry, songs.

I am aware of the menu but everything on the menu has not been demonstrated to be true. When one does I will believe that.

Pray that God shows you the truth.

Where did I vilify anyone?

My mistake.