Shades of Calvinism vs. the Gospel

[Bible Highlighter]

Christ did force it. there were many times in the past i was near to coming to christ, but it didn't happen. You need to have faith to believe me. I've said this many times on this forum, Christ saved me on the 27/12/2019. I didn't know what was going to happen, but in early March my dad was diagnosed with cancer and thanks to the Lord he's doing well now, but i live by faith day by day. Only God knew what was ahead, Christ saved me for a reason and i fully know now why.

I was saved but my mind was under so much stress, i was going crazy. Then on the 01/05/2020 i was blessed beyond measure, my cup was overflowing with joy, i had the strength to deal with every problem, i had the patience and a loving kindness i never had before. Its not even possible to explain in words.

when i read the scripture now its so plain, before i got saved it was confusing. I was going into theories, getting my mind muddles up in so-called contradictions in scripture. There are no contradictions now, there are things we will not know as Christ said it and John said there's things he seen but can not write.

I can't thank the Lord enough. God bless

I am not doubting that God can strongly influence us to accept Him, but you still had a free will choice in accepting the Lord. Why would Jesus (Who is GOD) say the following words if things are as you say?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

In other words, Jesus desired Jerusalem to be gathered under His wings like a hen gathers its chicks underneath its wings, but THEY (the Jerusalem people) would not let the Lord Jesus to do so. This means that the WILL of GOD is being thwarted here. This means salvation is not forced upon people.

 

[Victor in Christ]

I think I agree with your viewpoint. Christ did it. You didn't?

I started to look into the Jewish calender on those dates. 27/12 is when the Israelites celebrate coming out of Babylon. 01/05 is when they celebrate the bulding of the foundations of the temple. I'm not thinking a physical temple here, its spiritual to me.

Amen

 

[Victor in Christ]

I am not doubting that God can strongly influence us to accept Him, but you still had a free will choice in accepting the Lord. Why would Jesus (Who is GOD) say the following words if things are as you say?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

In other words, Jesus desired Jerusalem to be gathered under His wings like a hen gathers its chicks underneath its wings, but THEY (the Jerusalem people) would not let the Lord Jesus to do so. This means that the WILL of GOD is being thwarted here. This means salvation is not forced upon people.

Is jesus talking about the chief Priests who lead the Jews astray or the 1st Temple where Moses (under God's guidance) kept the people right in the ways of the Lord.

Keep in mind there's a difference between Jerusalem and Zion

 

[helmut]

In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did.

This is taught in the Bible
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So any good work we do has been created before by God.

Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work

This is not what the Bible says.

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith.

Agreed.

We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

I find it difficult to relate our time frame with God's world. The Bible says that God has chosen us before the foundation of the world ...

... but it is also clear that men are responsible for their deeds and God will judge them by their deeds - or by the grace they received through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is hard to unite both sides of the truth in a way comprehensible to us, because we live in time, not in eternity.But this is not the only paradoxon we meet when we think about biblical teachings, the most notable examples is (of course) the trinity, the paradox of "three in one".

I think that one who only takes one side (free will, responsibiolty and saving faith, or on the other side predestination and God's grace) is out of biblical lines, like one who denies Father, Son and Spirit are one, or one who think they are not three hypostases ("persons").

 

[helmut]

I am a 3 Point Calvinist AND a 3 point Arminian.

What does this mean? I can find Arminianism in Wikipedia, but what is "3 point"?

Do you mean that out of the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) and the 5 points of Arminianism you chose 3 points each into a 6 point "Arvinism" (or whatever term is the right name for it)? And which three points?

 

[BBAS 64]

I am not doubting that God can strongly influence us to accept Him, but you still had a free will choice in accepting the Lord. Why would Jesus (Who is GOD) say the following words if things are as you say?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

In other words, Jesus desired Jerusalem to be gathered under His wings like a hen gathers its chicks underneath its wings, but THEY (the Jerusalem people) would not let the Lord Jesus to do so. This means that the WILL of GOD is being thwarted here. This means salvation is not forced upon people.

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

I am not convinced that this has anything to do with salvation, but for the sake of interaction..

There are 2 group of people here Jerusalem, and her children. There is nothing in that text that says Jesus was looking to gather Jerusalem, but her children. But Jerusalem would not let ( her children) be gathered.

Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

A couple of questions if you would be so kind.

Who or what is Jerusalem?
Who are what is Her children?
What is the relationship functionally ( seeing you brought it up) between the will of her children and Jerusalem will( that would not)?
Does not the children have a will of their own to exercise freely?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Victor in Christ]

What does this mean? I can find Arminianism in Wikipedia, but what is "3 point"?

Do you mean that out of the 5 points of CValvinism (TULIP) and the 5 points of Arminianis you chose 3 points each into a 6 point "Arvinism" (or whatever term is the right name for it)? And which three points?

He'll not expand on it..., its a personal thing to him and something we should seek that wisdom also. I don't like Arminian ideas, 1 screw-up and you've got a one-way ticket to hell. It's not correct doctrine. I also don't believe in full Calvin doctrine ie- TULIP. it's flawed also.

Learn from it Helmut, grow in grace and be at peace. Grow strong Romans 8:15-17, knowing your more than a overcomer/conqueror Romans 8:35-39

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Additionally, the pastors I spoke with couldn't answer the hard questions.

Apparently you may have asked the wrong pastors?
Church History

 

[BBAS 64]

In my experience in discussing and studying Calvinism: All forms of Calvinism promote the idea that it is ultimately God who saves you and it is in nothing that you did. A person is saved by election or by some kind of regeneration before they exercise faith in the gospel. Many Calvinists believe (from my understanding on Calvinism) is that they consider our free will choice to exercise faith as a work, and thus God needs to save us by His grace and change us. God saves us, and we do not make the choice to be saved (in the world of Calvinism). Some in Calvinism say that “Calvinism is the gospel.”

This is not what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, that He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation. This is the gospel upon which we are saved. This is how we first get saved is by believing the gospel by faith. We are not saved before this point by the grace of God or by Him zapping us or regenerating us to be saved. We exercise faith in the gospel and then we are saved.

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

There are some glaring misunderstandings here, and wonder who you were studying.

Yes salvation is a work of God from start to finish. I will go so far as to describe it as a Trinitarian work of God proper.

Faith is a gift the is given by the hand of God to the elect for the sake of Christ.

You can not freely choose to use that which you do not have namely exercise Faith.

God yes Transfers us form the Darkness to light and we are changed, of if you prefer removes our heart of Stone gives us a heart of flesh and puts His Sprint in us. We are effected by that no doubt and we choose Him as a result.

Yes indeed that would be a tag line by The Prince of Preachers:

Calvinism is nothing more than a nick name for the Gospel and as a Baptist I would agree.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

For example: If Calvinism or election for salvation was biblical, then why did the following scenario happen in the Bible?

JAILER:
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

PAUL AND SILAS:
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

See: Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31.

If Calvinism or election for salvation was the way of salvation, then Paul and Silas would have said:

“Do nothing.” “Only God can elect you to salvation.” “If you are chosen, or regenerated, you may be among the fortunate few who will be enabled to believe in the gospel.”

Good Day, Bible highlighter

It is passages like that that make Calvinist the greatest Evangelist the world has ever seen.

I believe that William Carey often quoted that passage.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

I am not convinced that this has anything to do with salvation, but for the sake of interaction..

There are 2 group of people here Jerusalem, and her children. There is nothing in that text that says Jesus was looking to gather Jerusalem, but her children. But Jerusalem would not let ( her children) be gathered.

Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

A couple of questions if you would be so kind.

Who or what is Jerusalem?
Who are what is Her children?
What is the relationship functionally ( seeing you brought it up) between the will of her children and Jerusalem will( that would not)?
Does not the children have a will of their own to exercise freely?

In Him,

Bill

The children of Jerusalem are those Jews in Jerusalem during the time Jesus spoke those words. For Jesus to refer to children in some other time would have been nonsense. Jesus is God. Jesus desires something of these children, but their will was thwarting the will of Jesus or His desire. Your view of God does not align with this kind of thinking. You have asked questions but you have not resolved the contradiction in your belief here.

 

[BBAS 64]

I was a Calvinist at one point. However, the more I studied the Scriptures the more I realized they did not support Calvinism. Additionally, the pastors I spoke with couldn't answer the hard questions.

Good Day, Butch

What is the hard question I am sure Scripture has the answer.

It is often said if you are unable to get a good theological education... Just ask a Calvinist there is a forum for that purpose.

So ask.

In Him.

 

[A_JAY]

What does this mean? I can find Arminianism in Wikipedia, but what is "3 point"?

Do you mean that out of the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) and the 5 points of Arminianism you chose 3 points each into a 6 point "Arvinism" (or whatever term is the right name for it)? And which three points?

It's a joke, an expression. As I mentioned earlier both Arminians and Calvinists would have a Cow if I said that. [Sorry, maybe you don't understand that its American colloquial]] I go as far as the Scripture goes. However, I think the American brand of Arminianism goes too far. And I get more out of reading from Calvinists than Arminians.

Okay the argument against Arminianism that they are Pelagianists. I tend to believe that. They put too mmuch emphasis in mans response. Calvinism puts more emphasis on God's

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day, Bible highlighter

It is passages like that that make Calvinist the greatest Evangelist the world has ever seen.

I believe that William Carey often quoted that passage.

In Him,

Bill

Calvinism does not exist in the Bible. Romans 9 is the only chapter that sounds kind of Calvinistic, but read in context, it is not talking about individual election of all people in regards to salvation. Romans 9 is criticizing the Jewish way of thinking in trying to be saved by the 613 Laws of Moses, and their rejection of their Messiah (Jesus). God does not have to conform to Jewish ways of thought or thinking. God saves by His method or way. God saves by grace through faith. That is what the chapter is really about.

 

[helmut]

A couple of questions if you would be so kind.

I few answers from me, if you are so kind ;-)

Who or what is Jerusalem?

A city in Judea, destroyed 70 AD, a town Aelia was built a little bit further north, which is the "old town" of today Jerusalem, and mentioned in Rev 11:8 - notice that Jesus was crucified outside (old) Jerusalem, but inside of the area of Aelia.

Who are what is Her children?

The inhabitants of that city, and maybe of the "daughter cities", i.e. the towns and villages in Judea proper (the political Judea included the predomly heathen cost, and Samaria).

What is the relationship functionally ( seeing you brought it up) between the will of her children and Jerusalem will( that would not)?

Look into the gospels to see the will of the leading Jews (Sadducees, High Priest families,), the will of other Jews in Jerusalem and the will of Jews outside Jerusalem ...

Does not the children have a will of their own to exercise freely?

They certainly have. But the leading class could sometimes prevent them from doing what they wanted.

 

[BBAS 64]

The children of Jerusalem are those Jews in Jerusalem during the time Jesus spoke those words. For Jesus to refer to children in some other time would have been nonsense. Jesus is God. Jesus desires something of these children, but their will was thwarting the will of Jesus or His desire. Your view of God does not align with this kind of thinking. You have asked questions but you have not resolved the contradiction in your belief here.

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

My understanding of the text here is that it has nothing to do with Salvation... I clearly stated that.

You assert that it is ... so I am asking to deal with the text says and break it down for me.
I have no contradiction at all.

Now if you want to assert something about the text, and not answer simple questions about the text. I guess one is left to correctly say your assertion has no basis in the text, simply you are wishing the text said something the text does not say.


In Him

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is taught in the Bible
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So any good work we do has been created before by God.

What God intends for us beforehand does not always play out in reality.
God desired many things for men that they did not do. It's called sin.
Surely God never desired man to sin because God is holy.

This is not what the Bible says.

So you don't believe faith is a work?

John 6:29 says, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

I find it difficult to relate our time frame with God's world. The Bible says that God has chosen us before the foundation of the world ...

... but it is also clear that men are responsible for their deeds and God will judge them by their deeds - or by the grace they received through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is hard to unite both sides of the truth in a way comprehensible to us, because we live in time, not in eternity.But this is not the only paradoxon we meet when we think about biblical teachings, the most notable examples is (of course) the trinity, the paradox of "three in one".

I think that one who only takes one side (free will, responsibiolty and saving faith, or on the other side predestination and God's grace) is out of biblical lines, like one who denies Father, Son and Spirit are one, or one who think they are not three hypostases ("persons").

People have watched too many time travel movies. I don't think time exists in the same way that movies and books portray it where you can travel in the past or the future. While God is capable of seeing the future, I just do not believe God set up time where He exists in the future or the past at the same time He exists in the present. If this was the case then God could not offer one sacrifice for all time. If this the case, then God could have not have rested (stopped) on the 7th day from His work involving the 6 day creation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day, Bible Highlighter

My understanding of the text here is that it has nothing to do with Salvation... I clearly stated that.

You assert that it is ... so I am asking to deal with the text says and break it down for me.
I have no contradiction at all.

Now if you want to assert something about the text, and not answer simple questions about the text. I guess one is left to correctly say your assertion has no basis in the text, simply you are wishing the text said something the text does not say.


In Him

Bill

Read Luke 13:31-35. Jeuss is talking to Israel. The context is Israel and their salvation.

 

[helmut]

So you don't believe faith is a work?

John 6:29 says, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

As your quote shows, faith is not a work of men, but of God.

I just do not believe God set up time where He exists in the future or the past at the same time He exists in the present. If this was the case then God could not offer one sacrifice for all time.

I can't see the logic of this inference. If God is outside time, he can offer a sacrifice for all times. Why not?

If this the case, then God could have not have rested (stopped) on the 7th day from His work involving the 6 day creation.

In don't think that God had to rest because He was exhausted or so. He created rest. As Jesus has pointed out, the rest on the 7th day is not for God but for men.

As to the relation of God's time to our time, I doubt that we can grasp it. See 2.Pt 3:8.

 

[Victor in Christ]

Apparently you asked the wrong pastors?
Church History

That's a very informative video, thanks. I noticed ligonier ministries on it. Now, there's a doctorate in theology called Ken Gentry who preached that the great tribulation was over in AD70, (full-Preterism). I don't know if he's still in ligonier ministries, but in my eyes that's false teaching. He's written many books on eschatology before the year 2000AD. I pray he's seeking the Lord's help now and not his own intellect.

Not saying this is wrong either, but i've got worldly letters after my name, but i don't use them. I don't understand why so many Doctorates in theology are proud to display that and have so many books behind them, showing to others they have studied much. I have 2 bibles, a daily devotional andthe holy spirt as my guide and teacher. I don't need to go into church history to understand how Salvation works. Hope i'm not coming across as being negative, but a plowman could know more than a Pope if he has faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.