Ask God for Me

[miknik5]

It is an issue. One teaches baptism is not necessary for salvation another teaches it is a must. You can’t just waive it away saying both think it is important. It is the difference between heaven and hell for many Christians. How do you know who is correct on salvation here. If it is required the ones teaching it is not required could be sending people to hell.

Do you know the story of Cornelius and his family?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Do you know the story of Cornelius and his family?

Yes. But this is not the point. All you are attempting to do is to say your interpretation is correct. Others will point to other passages and say they are correct. This is the history of Christianity. There is no consensus on how one is saved.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

.

 

[Oncedeceived]

There are Christians that believe baptism is required for salvation and some say it is not. This is a difference about a salvation issue. What then?

It really isn't. Many are baptized, even though they don't believe it is a salvation issue.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes. But this is not the point. All you are attempting to do is to say your interpretation is correct. Others will point to other passages and say they are correct. This is the history of Christianity. There is no consensus on how one is saved.

Nope, that is false.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The point is that for the people who believe that Kylie went to the hardware store they must have as their foundation the belief that Kylie went to the shops.

And the people who believe that Kylie went grocery shopping instead ALSO have as their foundation the belief that Kylie went to the shops.

So? Still not a good analogy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It is an issue. One teaches baptism is not necessary for salvation another teaches it is a must. You can’t just waive it away saying both think it is important. It is the difference between heaven and hell for many Christians. How do you know who is correct on salvation here. If it is required the ones teaching it is not required could be sending people to hell.

If both kinds of church end up baptizing new believers, what difference does it really make? Either way, believers will be baptized in close relation to their acts and belief in the Christian faith. It makes no good sense to keep concerning yourself with an issue like this one with baptism where most Trinitarian Christians end up promoting a ritual that is agreed upon by all involved to be meaningful.

No, what you need to do is find a Trinitarian denomination that says you absolutely don't need to be baptized ever, or it teaches that baptized infants go to hell, or some other extreme. As it is, you're harping on trivialities here. So, just do yourself and us a favor and stop the silliness.

 

[Kylie]

Please...a church, which is what you have a problem with, is not a shop, nor can it be lumped in with your shopping spree analogy...sorry....

I'm not comparing shops with churches.

I'm comparing different BELIEFS.

The BELIEF that Kylie went to the shops. The BELIEF that Jesus existed.

And this is why I think you don't understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Kylie]

So? Still not a good analogy.

And yet you don't back up your claim. I suspect you can't.

 

[miknik5]

I'm not comparing shops with churches.

I'm comparing different BELIEFS.

The BELIEF that Kylie went to the shops. The BELIEF that Jesus existed.

And this is why I think you don't understand what I'm talking about.

Again, the FOUNDATION, in all those different denominations should be the same.

But I suspect you do not understand because of 1 Corinthians 2

 

[miknik5]

Yes. But this is not the point. All you are attempting to do is to say your interpretation is correct. Others will point to other passages and say they are correct. This is the history of Christianity. There is no consensus on how one is saved.

There is DEFINITELY a consensus on how one is saved...and it is not through water baptism first....

 

[miknik5]

One is saved because it is GOD´S WORK...and THAT BAPTISM is GOD´S WORK...one saved by GOD will not avoid water baptism, but it isn´t the water baptism that washes a man in the sight of GOD...it is GOD who washes the man...and if HE does not wash us, well...then as it is written, we have no part with HIM...

 

[Kylie]

Again, the FOUNDATION, in all those different denominations should be the same.

But I suspect you do not understand because of 1 Corinthians 2

And likewise, the FOUNDATION for the belief of the two people who believe I went to the shops is the same - their BELIEF that I went to the shops.

I am at as loss as to how you have not grasped this point.

 

[Oncedeceived]

It is an issue. One teaches baptism is not necessary for salvation another teaches it is a must. You can’t just waive it away saying both think it is important. It is the difference between heaven and hell for many Christians. How do you know who is correct on salvation here. If it is required the ones teaching it is not required could be sending people to hell.

The ones that are claiming water baptism is not necessary is supported by Scripture. There are passages that sound like it is a salvation issue, but when taken with the complete context, it isn't a salvation issue. Paul said: God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26)Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27)And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28)But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” 29)Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30)And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31)So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Acts 16:25-31 (NKJ)

 

[Oncedeceived]

I'm not comparing shops with churches.

I'm comparing different BELIEFS.

The BELIEF that Kylie went to the shops. The BELIEF that Jesus existed.

And this is why I think you don't understand what I'm talking about.

You do realize that it is supported by historical sources outside of the Bible that Jesus exited. So your analogy is incorrect.

 

[Oncedeceived]

And yet you don't back up your claim. I suspect you can't.

Jesus's existence is not the same as some believing you went to one shop or others another shop. Jesus's existence is supported by outside sources.

 

[miknik5]

And likewise, the FOUNDATION for the belief of the two people who believe I went to the shops is the same - their BELIEF that I went to the shops.

I am at as loss as to how you have not grasped this point.

Your going to the shops has nothing to do with a FOUNDATION that is the necessity to anyone´s salvation

It will have no affect on any of the subjects in your story...yourself, or those who believed you went here or there....

Iḿ sorry, Kylie...I am at a loss that you do not see the difference between your analogy and salvation to those who are able to distinguish that THE FOUNDATION is all that is needed...

These shops sell different merchandise. Their foundation, though you see it as an outer shell to the merchandise, sell different things.

The CHURCH has ONE IMPORTANT ELEMENT to man´s salvation...and it is THE NECESSARY TREASURE amongst the little trinkets and other material elements at the hands of men....and it isn´t the outer shell of the church that we are concerned about, or the dogma...it is THAT TREASURE that alone is THE FOUNDATION that holds THE BODY (not a physical structure)

Find THAT and that is all that is needed...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

How do I know that Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that sin is closer to a spiritual illness? I read it in a book on Eastern Orthodoxy.

No, I am not asking if people believe it is true. I am asking if it is actually true.

Haha, the word "sin" doesn't even show up in Genesis 3. The Fall is certainly a key concept, but those of us who read the Garden of Eden allegorically can't turn around and point to it as a concrete event where everything fell apart. I think it's a poetic way to describe a real issue, so if your understanding of what "sin" means excludes everyone who interprets the Garden of Eden differently (and that's a lot of people), there's a problem.

Paul certainly considered what Adam and Eve did as sin. Romans 5:12-21. Jesus certainly also believed in the literal genesis account John 5:46-47 and Mt 19:3-6.

If you don't believe in the literal accounts of genesis I commend you, they are ridiculous. However, this is just more confusion and Christians not knowing what the bible actually says. Also, if you take Genesis as allegorical then you seem to be in conflict in what Jesus believed.

 

[miknik5]

Any disobeyed command given by GOD is sin.

Adam (and Eve) disobeyed...they sinned...and their sin broke the relationship between themselves and GOD...and that break was profound...they knew and felt...they were removed and the way was blocked.

Today, men don´t know or feel it as profoundly as the first man, Adam, did...

 

[miknik5]

Jesus's existence is not the same as some believing you went to one shop or others another shop. Jesus's existence is supported by outside sources.

Further, one believing kylie went here or there...has no bearing on salvation for any of those who believe kylie went here or there...


Which I thought was the issue (for Kylie) to begin with...

If this is what Kylie was questioning, and I believe she was, here are my words to paraphrase the many denominational beliefs that seem to be the issue for Kylie:

¨How can we believe when there are so many various ways that people are worshipping¨

My answer, from the beginning was, all that matters within each of these many denominations, is if THE FOUNDATION (of their faith) is the same...

And that FOUNDATION should be JESUS, (THE SON OF GOD who came forth from GOD and into the world for the salvation of all who would believe in HIM)/ THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL