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Subduction Zone

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Well then, it kind of sounds like you had already dismissed me in your mind before I could even begin.

Alright. Enjoy the silence. That's what you'll get unless you continue to pop up your ugly strata here and badger my brethren. If you do that, then I'll take you to task, time permitting.

It is your actions that led to your dismissal. Not just here but elsewhere on the forum where I see you making claims to others but not supporting them. In this part of the forum focuses on Christian apologetics Christians have the burden of proof, that is its purpose. For Christians to exercise and develop those abilities. Elsewhere, in the creation vs. evolution part of the forum I gladly take on the burden of proof when correcting creationists. Anyone can claim to be an expert. But those claims fall flat when they are never supported.
 
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Silmarien

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What? I have never said this at all. Where have I said I have not looked into the origins of Christianity. I am not confused, most Christians are because they have never looked into the origins of their beliefs.

I have and concluded that there were many disagreements about doctrine and one side won out. There is no indication of god intervening to sort it out for them. My point is that not all early Christians believed the same things about doctrine.

If you're familiar with how orthodox beliefs came into existence and what they are, why are you claiming to not know what Christianity teaches? Obviously you don't have to believe any of it, but I don't know why you're saying you don't know what it even is.

You effectively tried to change the argument. Yes, politics were always part of the wars, but ignoring that religion was at the base of it all is inexcusable. And what "anti-religion polemics"? Just stating reality.

I don't believe religion was at the base of a lot of what went on in the medieval period. If you look at the degree to which the papacy was a political power and the way the various monarchs vied for supremacy, I don't think it makes any sense to point to religion as being at the base of conflicts, and certainly not independently of the bigger political dimension to religious questions. Heck, King Francis I of France went so far as to ally himself to the Ottomans because of his conflict with the Holy Roman Emperor during the Reformation.

You're not stating reality by claiming that religion was at the base of everything. It was a factor, but not in any way the defining factor. It is inexcusable to ignore modern historical scholarship on this subject so that you can engage in anti-religious polemics.

Anyway, your original point was that "small differences" led to religious conflict, and therefore all the various Christian sects are irreconcilable, or something along those lines. The first part is self-evidently false, since whenever small differences led to religious conflict, there were huge political interests involved also. And frankly, some of the disputes that seemed so important in the early church (e.g., Monophysitism) generally speaking don't make much sense to anyone anymore. It's silly to say because stuff like this happened, there are irreconcilable differences between all Christian sects. Worse than silly, it's condescending and oblivious, because you're telling people who actually do discuss theology amongst themselves that they're incapable of doing that very thing. :doh:
 
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Oncedeceived

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I have not demonstrated that water is wet either. But this article alone mentions at least hundreds of them:

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia

I did not claim that there are tens of thousands since that figure is arguably inflated. But even articles such as the following, that refutes the claim of "33,000 Protestants" admits that there are on the order of 9,000 protestant sects:

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
There you go, do you see the important factor in your link?
I'll point it out:

  • Independents: 22,000 denominations
  • Protestants: 9000 denominations
  • Marginals: 1600 denominations
  • Orthodox: 781 denominations
  • Catholics: 242 denominations
  • Anglicans: 168 denominations
Do you see the list on the left side? That is what you should be noting. Denominations have different meanings as well. Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ and so on, they are denominations under those heads. The beliefs of each may reflect some differing stances but the foundation of Jesus is within them.
 
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Oncedeceived

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And how do you know that? Since Christian apologetics is about defending Christianity how would you do so? How can you demonstrate that your religion is the correct religion?
Is there another religion where there is historical documents that support it? Is there a religion that fits with reality and is self cohesive more so than does Christianity?
 
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Oncedeceived

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You can read the writings of the early Christians for yourself.
Support for you assertions? The early Christians were present for the preaching of the Disciples. When they (the Disciples) were getting older and wrote things down it was within their lifetime and although they were not complied into book form, the writings were available to the churches.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is your actions that led to your dismissal. Not just here but elsewhere on the forum where I see you making claims to others but not supporting them. In this part of the forum focuses on Christian apologetics Christians have the burden of proof, that is its purpose. For Christians to exercise and develop those abilities. Elsewhere, in the creation vs. evolution part of the forum I gladly take on the burden of proof when correcting creationists. Anyone can claim to be an expert. But those claims fall flat when they are never supported.

Oh, I guess a lot a people around here missed the part where I've said --- I don't believe in the so-called "Christian's Burden of Proof."

I guess part of the problem here is how one (anyone, whether they're Christian or Skeptic) conceptualizes and defines what the nature and purpose of "apologetics" is for. Thus, other than for the question of whether or not a 'philosopher's god exists,' I see literally every issue in bilateral terms, not unilateral. And for me, this means that I get to ALSO, in turn, challenge and tear apart the opposing praxis, along with its assumptions, axioms and any other epistemological, metaphysical and/or axiological flotsam and jetsom that may be being used to pound upon the Christian faith.

You see, when skeptical challengers come into the apologetics section, I don't "assume" that I have some mandatory prone and prostrate position to maintain from the get go; no, I just see that they've entered the Gladiatorial ring, and those challengers who come in better be able to defend their own underlying propositions by which they "think" they're entitled supposedly to question my position.

See the difference? I don't see Christian apologetics as some passive activity in which I'm the only one who has to cough up the support for one's own respective position. Maybe I'm wrong in all of how I see things when it comes to 'defending the faith'; or, maybe I'm an anomaly that the secular world put in motion ...

... either way, I'm not going to play by the usually assumed rules.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If you're familiar with how orthodox beliefs came into existence and what they are, why are you claiming to not know what Christianity teaches? Obviously you don't have to believe any of it, but I don't know why you're saying you don't know what it even is.
I know what Christianity teaches. The problem is that it teaches different things and often times contradictory things. My question isn't what does Christianity teach, my question is how do we know what teaching is true, if any.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No, I can not...I can only tell you that what they spoke of was a hidden dialogue not known to those outside of THE BODY....
Well all I can say is that maybe you need a better epistemology. You just said that you cannot provide evidence for your beliefs and then tells me more of your beliefs.
 
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Silmarien

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I know what Christianity teaches. The problem is that it teaches different things and often times contradictory things. My question isn't what does Christianity teach, my question is how do we know what teaching is true, if any.

No, it wasn't. Your question in #1234 (nice job on grabbing that number, btw ^_^) was how we could know what the Christian God was like, not whether or not the Christian God existed. That's a question about what Christianity teaches, so the obvious answer is that we can just look into Christian theology. It's not exactly internally inconsistent.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Where were the questions? Are you claiming to be sinless?
No, I am claiming that sin is a made up concept that is used to threaten people. I do good and bad things and many times in between. There is no reason to believe cosmic sin that offends a God.
 
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Oncedeceived

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No, I am claiming that sin is a made up concept that is used to threaten people. I do good and bad things and many times in between. There is no reason to believe cosmic sin that offends a God.
Really, how do you know it is a made up concept?
 
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Subduction Zone

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There you go, do you see the important factor in your link?
I'll point it out:

  • Independents: 22,000 denominations
  • Protestants: 9000 denominations
  • Marginals: 1600 denominations
  • Orthodox: 781 denominations
  • Catholics: 242 denominations
  • Anglicans: 168 denominations
Do you see the list on the left side? That is what you should be noting. Denominations have different meanings as well. Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ and so on, they are denominations under those heads. The beliefs of each may reflect some differing stances but the foundation of Jesus is within them.
Yes, some sort of belief in Jesus exists in all of them. But that was not the point. The point was that the differences between separate sects has been enough to be the basis for countless battles. The difference between some is negligible, but with thousands of denominations those differences add up. One ends up going from Catholics to Seventh Day Adventists to even Mormons and other groups depending upon one's definition of Christianity.
 
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klutedavid

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Everybody interprets the text for themselves. That is why there are thousands of sects.
Agree with you completely on that point.

Politics has many differing groups, fighting with each other over what direction your country should be taking.

Everyone has their own subjective view of themselves and even of life.
 
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Silmarien

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No, I am claiming that sin is a made up concept that is used to threaten people. I do good and bad things and many times in between. There is no reason to believe cosmic sin that offends a God.

Meanwhile, the legacy of racism in our country, combined with Antifa's love of chaos, means that Minneapolis is basically on fire. Institutional sin, not at all made up.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Yes, some sort of belief in Jesus exists in all of them. But that was not the point. The point was that the differences between separate sects has been enough to be the basis for countless battles. The difference between some is negligible, but with thousands of denominations those differences add up. One ends up going from Catholics to Seventh Day Adventists to even Mormons and other groups depending upon one's definition of Christianity.
So? It doesn't matter. If the foundation or the original gospel is not there, it is not Christian. Period.
 
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klutedavid

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Yes, some sort of belief in Jesus exists in all of them. But that was not the point. The point was that the differences between separate sects has been enough to be the basis for countless battles. The difference between some is negligible, but with thousands of denominations those differences add up. One ends up going from Catholics to Seventh Day Adventists to even Mormons and other groups depending upon one's definition of Christianity.
These differences are more due to the country your born in. And the tradition you accept.

If your born in Italy you will probably be a Catholic.

If your born in the southern states of America, you will probably be a fundamentalist.

A Christian in England more than likely identify themselves as church of England.

If your born in Russia you are likely a communist.

Same pattern seems to occur.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Support for you assertions? The early Christians were present for the preaching of the Disciples. When they (the Disciples) were getting older and wrote things down it was within their lifetime and although they were not complied into book form, the writings were available to the churches.
I am not talking about the writings that got put in the Bible but writing by early Christians that do contradict each other.

Like the Gospel of Thomas
The Gospel of Thomas Collection - Translations and Resources

or how about Arius
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1f0b6ee362e3/1523546437044/Arius-writings.pdf

Gospel of Mary Magdalene
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

The Bible has also undergone changes in its history. The Bible you have is not the same as 1500 years ago. Also, the gospel of Marcion is a gospel of Luke that is different than the one in the bible. Marcion said his was authentic and the other Gospel of Luke was not. In fact, some scholars think the Gospel of Marcion was written earlier to the Gospel of Luke in the bible.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No, it wasn't. Your question in #1234 (nice job on grabbing that number, btw ^_^) was how we could know what the Christian God was like, not whether or not the Christian God existed. That's a question about what Christianity teaches, so the obvious answer is that we can just look into Christian theology. It's not exactly internally inconsistent.
I am talking about what teachings became the "true" teachings. There were theological debates and fights going back almost to the beginning and even today. You seem to think that Christianity always had one set of beliefs and no others? My question is how do we know what beliefs are true. I don't care what traditionally they have been, but with all the contradictory beliefs out there today and throughout history how do we know what is true?

If there are Christians today teaching Jesus did not die for our sins (just like in the early days) and some are saying that he did. Who can demonstrate that they are correct?
 
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