Baptism while living in sin...

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course they apply.

You seem to expect that a church will try to force a new convert (or indeed a new member from elsewhere) to conform to a particular moral/ethical standard (require marriage or separation).

My church would not do that, and indeed would see it as inappropriately controlling to do that. If a person in such a partnership seeks my counsel, they will have it; but otherwise, they are responsible for their walk with Christ, and I would be wrong to withhold the sacraments from them.

I love the way you resort to words like 'force' to give the impression that having a scriptural standard is abusive.

The fact is that fresh converts want to do what they believe to be right and get married if they are defacto. Maybe you are unfamiliar with what happens when folk meet Christ, start reading scripture, and immediately see what sin is because the Holy Spirit in their lives reveals this ??
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I love the way you resort to words like 'force' to give the impression that having a scriptural standard is abusive.

Let me be clear: a church community, or its ministers/leaders, trying to control what its members do* is spiritually abusive, yes. That's pretty much the definition of spiritual abuse.

*Outside very narrow exceptions, like decisions on how church services are run.

The fact is that fresh converts want to do what they believe to be right and get married if they are defacto.

And what I have been talking about is the situation where their partner is not a fresh convert and doesn't want to get married. In my experience, fresh convert or not, folks are not quick to separate from their partners in that situation, but the unresolved issue of faith differences and marriage remains a grief in that relationship, and a difficulty for both partners.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let me be clear: a church community, or its ministers/leaders, trying to control what its members do* is spiritually abusive, yes. That's pretty much the definition of spiritual abuse.

Yes your choice of the word control also assuming that abuse is occurring.

Don't churches have a statement of faith and folks agree to this and attend?

Is this not free will ??

No control there...

If a church presents as a conservative scriptural community - why assume abuse?
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Don't churches have a statement of faith and folks agree to this and attend?

We don't require agreement with a statement of faith either for attendance or membership.

All members must be baptised and therefore, in theory at least, accept the Apostles' Creed; but I find that in reality that's not necessarily a given. And it certainly doesn't spell out either a theology or a praxis of marriage.

If a church presents as a conservative scriptural community - why assume abuse?

You're the one who seems shocked that I'm not being controlling of my congregants' personal lives. You seem to me to be advocating an overly intrusive/controlling relationship. If I have misunderstood what you've said, then please clarify.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,253
10,569
New Jersey
✟1,155,667.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Of course they apply.

You seem to expect that a church will try to force a new convert (or indeed a new member from elsewhere) to conform to a particular moral/ethical standard (require marriage or separation).

My church would not do that, and indeed would see it as inappropriately controlling to do that. If a person in such a partnership seeks my counsel, they will have it; but otherwise, they are responsible for their walk with Christ, and I would be wrong to withhold the sacraments from them.
I agree with all of your responses. But I think you need to recognize that this is effectively giving up on church discipline, in the traditional sense of punishment. Hopefully you're not giving up on it in the sense of leading people in the right direction. In many Protestant ecclessiologies this was one of the three essential purposes of the church (although oddly enough, not for Calvin).

I agree because I think Jesus would agree. He talks a lot about forgiveness of sin, but doesn't condemn anyone for sin in the sense that Christians traditionally mean it (sexual impurity). On the other hand, Paul does, and so does the Christian tradition until very recently.

The whole term "living in sin" tells you just what the tradition thinks of. Fornication is really the only sin people took action against, whatever teachings may have said. No attempt to emulate the prophets' condemnation against those who foreclosed on widows and orphans, opposed immigrants, etc.

But still, from a historical perspective your position is actually pretty radical.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Who isn't living in sin? I mean the way you look at others and judge them is a sin in itself, isn't it? What is the difference between you and them other than what you view yourself in comparison?
I agree.
While adultery and fornication are acts that are sinful, I'm not sure if it follows that an unmarried couple are necessarily living in sin. I wonder if the issue is more cultural than spiritual. Both adultery and fornication are outside of a committed relationship. I think that is what makes them sinful. God's intention is for sexual relations to be within a committed relationship. Whether that relationship is state approved or not. There are even common law statutes that declare people as if they were legally married based on a long-term relationship.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
We do still have a sense of church discipline, (if by that you mean a form of excommunication) but it would tend to only be resorted to in very narrowly defined circumstances, to do with grave public scandal or the like.

I don't think my position is radical for Anglicanism. We've tended both to a view that people have a right to participate in the life of the church (comes from being Established, I guess?), and that the church is not here to be a moral micro-manager.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We don't require agreement with a statement of faith either for attendance or membership.

That is not what I said - it is common for folks to check out a churches faith statement before making a freewill choice to attend.

All members must be baptised and therefore, in theory at least, accept the Apostles' Creed; but I find that in reality that's not necessarily a given. And it certainly doesn't spell out either a theology or a praxis of marriage.

All members must be baptised - does this not qualify under your definition of control?

You're the one who seems shocked that I'm not being controlling of my congregants' personal lives. You seem to me to be advocating an overly intrusive/controlling relationship. If I have misunderstood what you've said, then please clarify.

Again you want to imply that I advocate controlling personal lives.

This is nuts - all I have said is that folks encountering Jesus and reading His word, combined with the conviction of the Spirit within, will WANT to choose changes in lifestyle that align with their conviction.

If you had a thief in your congregation wouldn't you want to exercise some control over his/her activities?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,253
10,569
New Jersey
✟1,155,667.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
We do still have a sense of church discipline, (if by that you mean a form of excommunication) but it would tend to only be resorted to in very narrowly defined circumstances, to do with grave public scandal or the like.

I don't think my position is radical for Anglicanism. We've tended both to a view that people have a right to participate in the life of the church (comes from being Established, I guess?), and that the church is not here to be a moral micro-manager.
At least your side of Anglicanism. Church discipline - what happened?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That is not what I said - it is common for folks to check out a churches faith statement before making a freewill choice to attend.

In my experience, few people read the 39 Articles of Religion before attending an Anglican church.

All members must be baptised - does this not qualify under your definition of control?

No, because we are fine if people attend - and commune - without being members.

This is nuts - all I have said is that folks encountering Jesus and reading His word, combined with the conviction of the Spirit within, will WANT to choose changes in lifestyle that align with their conviction.

And if they don't do so in the way or with the timing that you think appropriate? You're happy to let them figure it out as they go along, or not?

If you had a thief in your congregation wouldn't you want to exercise some control over his/her activities?

An interesting hypothetical that I've never encountered in real life. There are all sorts of ways that would need to be unpacked, not least because there's a victim of theft in the mix there (in a way that there isn't a "victim" of fornication).
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
At least your side of Anglicanism. Church discipline - what happened?

But the question is - and I don't know the answer - even in the diocese of Sydney, is the sort of approach that Carl is advocating here being taken? I seriously doubt it (although when it comes to Sydney, they deviate so much from Anglican norms, I might not be surprised).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,253
10,569
New Jersey
✟1,155,667.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
To Carl: I've never heard of a church doing something to remain "relevant," except in some sense some of the "seeker-sensitive" churches.

The fact is, traditions develop in different directions. The mainline tradition of which Paidiske is part (whether she knows it or not) does not consider disciplining its members for moral violations to be a function of the Church. I'm part of the same tradition. We have done something like discipline a couple of times, but it was for public offenses against other church members, where we pretty much had to take a stand.

If we did consider it essential, we'd be much more likely to discipline someone for voting for Trump than living together without a formal marriage, based on Biblical standards of behavior. But most members would consider that kind of church action rather disturbing.

Furthermore, to my knowledge any consistent kind of church discipline is pretty unusual in the US, being a sign of a very conservative group. Many churches would deny baptism to an unmarried couple, but not as part of a consistent attempt to discipline members.

This article maintains that it stopped in the mid 20th Cent. 10 Things You Should Know about Church Discipline. (This gives more detail: Brief Survey of Historical Background to Church Discipline in Baptist Churches and Nineteenth-century Baptists and church discipline: case studies from Georgia. - Free Online Library) However my impression is that it was earlier than that. Jonathan Edwards was ejected from his church because he tried to conduct consistent church discipline. Since his time I think any discipline that is done is against of a small set of sins that are particularly disreputable in whatever community the church resides.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We havn't agreed on a definition of marriage and I expect the same will apply to fornication.

If folks start being sexually active in a 'casual' relationship then remain together for a longer period - how long do they have to be together before they are considered married in your view?

And when does their activity switch from fornication to whatever else you want to call it ???

Do they have anything to repent of ???

Is their casual sex deemed acceptable in retrospect?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,574
26,986
Pacific Northwest
✟735,986.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
What we are seeing here is an inability to agree on a definition of marriage, the modern church accomodating a broad range of lifestyles in the name of inclusiveness in order to be 'relevant' to the world. Fornication becoming pretty much meaningless.

I guess we will have to wait for the next revival to understand again how He views such matters.

What we are seeing is that the interplay between ecclesiastical practice and civil arrangements aren't uniform.

Historically, in the Christian Church, a marriage has been two people promising themselves to one another, and usually with the presumption that offspring will be the fruit of that union. However, not all marriages do result in offspring, for any number of potential reasons. And ecclesiastical views themselves differ across traditions and denominational backgrounds. Further, given that the specifics of how a marriage gets done, in a culturally relevant way and in accordance with civil jurisdictions is not (and most certainly never has been) uniform.

The Church functions in a dysfunctional world, the real world, with real people, who are messy and complicated; and the situations and circumstances of life in which people exist is messy and complicated.

I suspect what might be a more accurate observation is simply that many churches, with centuries of tradition and precedent to rely on, are more equipped to address complicated matters of life because the circumstances of life have never been clean and consistent and the Church persists through all these things.

You mentioned earlier atheists seeking baptism purely for business contracts; and yet churches have set precedents for baptismal candidates.

An atheist can't just walk off the street into a church, say "I want to be baptized" and then get baptized right that moment; unless it's an emergency that's not going to happen. What would happen is that such a person would be called and invited into a period of instruction and teaching, it is expected that an adult convert wants to be a Christian. It's the same reason that two unbelieving parents can't bring their infant child to a church, say, "The mother-in-law wants us to baptize the baby", churches aren't going to go along with that, because essential and intrinsic to baptizing infants is the parent or guardian's intent for the child to be raised in the faith, to under go instruction and teaching and brought up as a Christian.

This, again, is why there seems to be some confusion about traditional baptismal beliefs and practices among historic, traditional churches. We do not believe simply receiving baptism means someone has gained their golden ticket to paradise. Baptism is the new birth, the point at which we are transformed from death to life, being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Christ. We can rely on this, we can hang our hat on this, because God Himself has staked His own honor here, that the one who has been baptized into Christ has been baptized into Christ's death, and having partaken of His death, are buried with Him, and share in the new life which is in Christ. It is the water the gives drink to the germinating seed, but that seedling still must be nurtured, that is why we are sustained and nourished by the word of God, by the Eucharist, through the preaching, teaching, the Sacraments, the koinonia and life we have together from the Spirit, in Christ, as the Body.

So if a church baptizes a couple who are not formally married, rather than simply assume that this is some kind of sanction of fornication; why not consider the possibility that this represents two thousand years of faithful Christian praxis being put into place, involving a proper understanding of the administering of the Sacrament, and general pastoral care?

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,574
26,986
Pacific Northwest
✟735,986.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
i may be wrong but i was under the impression that baptism is a sign of salvation (a fruit of salvation like good works) and that our actula justification and salvation was by faith in thefinsihed work of Jesus on the cross alone... we saved by faith.

That's a fairly modern view. The historic Christian view is that Baptism is efficacious, doing what it promises and signifies. Because Baptism is a gracious work of God toward us, not our response of obedience to God. This is why historically we baptize infants, because the point of Baptism isn't to demonstrate our obedience, but rather because through this precious Sacrament God's grace is active. We are born again in the waters of Holy Baptism, by which we are signed and sealed by God as belonging to Christ. Since whether we are babies or adults, we are the same in Baptism--helpless sinners with nothing we can bring before God of value, in need of the salvation which is found alone in Jesus Christ, which is here for us in this water as pure grace--a pure gift apart from ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure if you're asking me or hedrick, but will give it a go anyway.

If folks start being sexually active in a 'casual' relationship then remain together for a longer period - how long do they have to be together before they are considered married in your view?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing here that a de facto relationship is a marriage. I'm arguing that if they're in a de facto relationship, that's really none of my - or the church's - business.

And when does their activity switch from fornication to whatever else you want to call it ???

Fornication is sex outside marriage. That's pretty clear.

Do they have anything to repent of ???

Probably, but that's between them and God.

Is their casual sex deemed acceptable in retrospect?

What difference should it make to me? Do you expect me to police people's bedroom activities, or impose penalties in retrospect? Unless they're asking me to hear their confession, in which case there will be some form of penance, I'm just not going to do that.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Fornication is sex outside marriage. That's pretty clear.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing here that a de facto relationship is a marriage. I'm arguing that if they're in a de facto relationship, that's really none of my - or the church's - business.

Well the apostles considered these matters very serious - fornication was close to the top of the list of serious sins and Paul went after one in sexual sin - released him from grace - and as a result he was restored.

I conclude from this that it most certainly is the churches business.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,744
10,044
78
Auckland
✟382,751.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And if they don't do so in the way or with the timing that you think appropriate? You're happy to let them figure it out as they go along, or not?

Paul wasn't happy...

An atheist can't just walk off the street into a church, say "I want to be baptized" and then get baptized right that moment

Maybe not at that moment, but Doctors going to Saudi commonly requested baptism in our country and were accommodated.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,337
19,109
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,515,974.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Paul wasn't happy...

No, but I'm asking about your practice. Because the point at issue between us, as I understood it, was whether it is right for churches to try to control the sexual behaviour of those who attend.
 
Upvote 0