Ask God for Me

[miknik5]

I thought God had reveled himself to me at the time. I was convinced with bad evidence.

I was convinced by bad evidence that God was real. That bad evidence included feelings, apologist arguments, unexplained experiences, dreams, accepting what preachers said without questioning it too much.

Apologists arguments were a large influence on me. When I "investigated" Christianity when I was in my early twenties I only looked at Christian sources. My thought at that time was that if I wanted to know if Christianity was true I should listen to Christians. I never thought to see what non theists arguments were. It was really when I learned how to determine truth in a logical way did I realize my reasons were unsound and I became unconvinced that a God exists.

I will give two.

When I was about 10, my sister screamed in the middle of the night. I was the first to her room and I saw a blue head floating over her bedside table. When my parents got there the head was no longer there. About 20 years later I was talking with my sister and I brought this up. I assumed at the time she was screaming becasue of the floating head. I was wrong, she never saw it and she screamed becasue she had a bad dream. I don't know what I actually saw or if I saw anything, but I have no good reason to believe it was supernatural.

When my daughter was 4 she used to say that a "friend" was with her a lot named Osiris. One night my wife and I were in her room putting her to bed and she said Osiris was standing next to her door. I asked what he looked like and she described kind of a dwarf like person with horns. I could not see anything but I "felt" like it was there. I was actually scared that it was a demon or something. My wife and I prayed and my daughter said it was gone. We never heard about Osiris again. At the time I was convinced by my experience and my christian belief that it was a demon or something like that. However, now I realize I have no good reason to believe anything was actually there.

You were willing at one time to believe that there is a supernatural, spiritual realm and spirits....you even had physical evidence to support this...

Yet, you do not believe that in there is ONE GOD and ONE TRUTH...in the midst of the confusion of this enemy?

 

[miknik5]

Satan also knows the TRUTH, sir...and his work is to steal from GOD what rightfully should belong to GOD...

 

[miknik5]

He doesn't say anything. I don't believe he exists. Stop asking questions that imply otherwise.

I asked you ONE question, sir....anything else I said to you before this ONE question, were statements...

 

[Tinker Grey]

I asked you ONE question, sir....anything else I said to you before this ONE question, were statements...

Fine. Try this instead: He doesn't say anything. I don't believe he exists. Don't ask questions that imply otherwise.

 

[Oncedeceived]

It wasn't what convinced. It was the examination of what I believed that showed me that what I believed was without basis. That is to say, the examination of the purported evidence lead to me being unconvinced.

So again, what purported evidence lead you to being unconvinced?

 

[Tinker Grey]

So again, what purported evidence lead you to being unconvinced?

It wasn't what lead me to be unconvinced. I came to the place where the purported evidence for Christianity/supernatural/religion-in-general simply isn't convincing.

Which evidence is that? Any and all of it.

 

[miknik5]

Fine. Try this instead: He doesn't say anything. I don't believe he exists. Don't ask questions that imply otherwise.

Of you I will not...of others, I will as you have no right to restrict who I can ask questions to.

 

[Kylie]

@John Helpher , given that you spent so long telling me that what I did was the wrong way, I wonder if you are at all interested in telling me the right way?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Of you I will not...of others, I will as you have no right to restrict who I can ask questions to.

It's not about me. It makes no sense to ask someone who is an atheist if God is who God says he is. It literally nonsense. The atheist does not believe in gods. The question cannot be answered because the question presumes that God exists.

As debaters sometimes say, we reject the premise.

I'm not trying to restrict you and trying to help you have a reasonable conversation.

 

[Oncedeceived]

It wasn't what lead me to be unconvinced. I came to the place where the purported evidence for Christianity/supernatural/religion-in-general simply isn't convincing.

Which evidence is that? Any and all of it.

Ok, you feel for instance the information in a cell is unconvincing of intelligence? You wouldn't then find the Laws of Logic elements of intelligence I would guess? You wouldn't find the appearance of design in the universe or in life forms convincing as having been a product of intelligence then?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Ok, you feel for instance the information in a cell is unconvincing of intelligence? You wouldn't then find the Laws of Logic elements of intelligence I would guess? You wouldn't find the appearance of design in the universe or in life forms convincing as having been a product of intelligence then?

Yes the laws of logic are signs of intelligence; it's human intelligence. The rest? No.

Look. I told you I find it unconvincing. But I didn't do so in order that we could debate each and every minuscule aspect of each thing. Those are ordinary things that have been endlessly discussed in the Physical & Life Sciences forum.

Show me the supernatural and we'll talk. Everything else you've mentioned have natural explanations. What you've presented is an argument from incredulity. Not interested.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes the laws of logic are signs of intelligence; it's human intelligence. The rest? No.

The Laws of Logic didn't exist prior to humans? Not true, it is self evident that P is P, P is P and not non P, or either or non P whether humans are in the universe or not.

Look. I told you I find it unconvincing. But I didn't do so in order that we could debate each and every minuscule aspect of each thing. Those are ordinary things that have been endlessly discussed in the Physical & Life Sciences forum.

With no answer as to why the universe and life should appear designed.

Show me the supernatural and we'll talk. Everything else you've mentioned have natural explanations. What you've presented is an argument from incredulity. Not interested.

No, they don't all have natural explanations.

 

[Tinker Grey]

The Laws of Logic didn't exist prior to humans? Not true, it is self evident that P is P, P is P and not non P, or either or non P whether humans are in the universe or not.

Logic was developed by humans in response to what they observed to be true about the universe. It is a rubric for formulating a mechanism of understanding. It may always have true that A != ~A. But the formulation of that thought didn't exist until an intelligent mind evolved to formulate it. It may be true that there are other intelligent life forms in the universe, but for our purposes, rules of logic didn't exist until we evolved to formulate them.

With no answer as to why the universe and life should appear designed.

It doesn't appear designed.

No, they don't all have natural explanations.

Yes they do.

And BTW, where is the supernatural? Without evidence of such a thing, all speculations of the divine are useless.

 

[miknik5]

It's not about me. It makes no sense to ask someone who is an atheist if God is who God says he is. It literally nonsense. The atheist does not believe in gods. The question cannot be answered because the question presumes that God exists.

As debaters sometimes say, we reject the premise.

I'm not trying to restrict you and trying to help you have a reasonable conversation.

It makes no sense for an atheist to ask us to ask GOD something either...

 

[Kylie]

Ok, you feel for instance the information in a cell is unconvincing of intelligence? You wouldn't then find the Laws of Logic elements of intelligence I would guess? You wouldn't find the appearance of design in the universe or in life forms convincing as having been a product of intelligence then?

Yes, I find it unconvincing because intelligence is not the only way for cells to come about. And given that existence of what appear to be serious flaws in life forms, I doubt that a great intelligence is responsible.

 

[Kylie]

It makes no sense for an atheist to ask us to ask GOD something either...

Why not? You guys do believe he exists, don't you?

 

[miknik5]

Why not? You guys do believe he exists, don't you?

Because we can not do the work for you. And the work that we would do for you would be a blanket work, encompassing ALL atheists...that they may come to the knowledge of the TRUTH...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Please enlighten me as to how you would believe it was God speaking to you?

That is the point. I don't know but if God does exist there should be evidence He could give me that would convince me that he does.

 

[miknik5]

Other spirits gave you evidence that they exist...therefore this is confirmation, or at least SHOULD be confirmation to you, that there is a spiritual realm and spirits.

And you prayed sir...and the outcome of that prayer sir, should also have been confirmation to you that there is a HOLY and GOOD SPIRIT that listens.


Who did you think HE was?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Actually, maybe you should direct this question to Tinker Grey from post 607? I would, however, be interested in these events or dreams which led you to the conclusion that it wasn´t god speaking to you after all.

I learned a better epistemology. The default answer is not to believe until we can verify they were not from a god, but the default position is to not believe until there is sufficient evidence to believe. Having a dream cannot be good evidence of anything. What evidence is there to conclude it was from a god?