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Gehenna and Hell?

GospelS

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So you are explaining that Hell is even worse than we all originally imagined?

I don't know how others imagined but for me it is worse than how i originally imagined, i think. Imagine a place like Egypt as plagues hit them and on top of that its only more sin everywhere, everyone tormenting each other and devil also tormenting them. They keep weeping and gnashing their teeth.
 
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RaymondG

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I don't know how others imagined but for me it is worse than how i originally imagined, i think. Imagine the Egyptians living through plagues and on top of that its only more sin everywhere, everyone tormenting each other and devil also tormenting them. They keep weeping and gnashing their teeth.
Ok Thanks for the information. It was just interesting to see one praising and getting so excited at the revelation that those, who will be in hell, will experience more suffering than they first thought. I would have expected the opposite to be true....for who receives joy in the increased suffering of others?

But you take joy in that which gives you joy. I find no fault in it.
 
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Andrewn

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So what about the Rich man? Where is he?

The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says he's in Hades:

Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

The English word "hell" is obviously not in the original Bible, which was written in Hebrew and Greek (there are also Aramaic sections). The word "hell" has its origin in proto-Germanic mythology. In the KJV it was used to translate "sheol," "hades," "gehenna," and "tartarus" without distinguishing between them.

Most modern Christians seem to believe that "gehenna" is the same as the "lake of fire" referred to in Revelation.

But Jews would equate "gehenna" with the place where the rich man is. If this is true, then you're right and the rich man is in the gehenna, which is a section of hades reserved for tormented souls. My reading of the Gospels makes me agree with this view.
 
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GospelS

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Ok Thanks for the information. It was just interesting to see one praising and getting so excited at the revelation that those, who will be in hell, will experience more suffering than they first thought. I would have expected the opposite to be true....for who receives joy in the increased suffering of others?

But you take joy in that which gives you joy. I find no fault in it.

Ok. I dont know how God's people cannot understand when another believer is taking joy in that. I will add that reason to my OP to make it clear. I put smileys because I learned deeper meaning of God's word and more about His righteousness, His Justice, and His Kingdom and that would be a joy to anyone who loves the Lord.
 
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GospelS

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The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says he's in Hades:

Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

The English word "hell" is obviously not in the original Bible, which was written in Hebrew and Greek (there are also Aramaic sections). The word "hell" has its origin in proto-Germanic mythology. In the KJV it was used to translate "sheol," "hades," "gehenna," and "tartarus" without distinguishing between them.

Most modern Christians would probably say that "gehenna" is the "lake of fire" referred to in Revelations.

But Jews would equate "gehenna" with the place where the rich man is. If this is true, then you're right and the rich man is in the gehenna, which is a section of hades reserved for tormented souls. My reading of the Gospels makes me agree with this view.

"Hell" and fire is mentioned in KJV in the same parable. Just saying. I'm not a fan of any translation.

...send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24
 
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Billy UK

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Revelation 20:14 (KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death



Eitherway the wicked will go into everlasting fire just like Jesus said



Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
 
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Andrewn

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"Hell" and fire is mentioned in KJV in the same parable. Just saying. I'm not a fan of any translation.

...send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24
True. And this is a good indication that gehenna is the section of hades where the rich man was consigned, as I wrote in my previous message.

I'm not a fan of any translation, either, and would prefer to use the terms in the original Bible manuscripts rather than the word "hell."
 
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RaymondG

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Ok. I dont know how God's people cannot understand when another believer is taking joy in that. I will add that reason to my OP to make it clear. I put smileys because I learned deeper meaning of God's word and more about His righteousness, His Justice, and His Kingdom and that would be a joy to anyone who loves the Lord.
Let me ease your confusion. Many serve different gods, even when they believe they serve the same. This is why many will hear "I never knew you," and will be genuinely surprised by this statement.
I hope this insight can replace your confusion with understanding.

The God that I personally serve, is love.....And this love in me, brings me to sadness at the thought of increased suffering for anyone for any reason. For this reason... I cannot get happy at the thought of others suffering more.....whether or not I feel i will be apart of that suffering.

But I can understand if others will take joy in this.....and I find no fault in it.
 
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GospelS

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Let me ease your confusion. Many serve different gods, even when they believe they serve the same. This is why many will hear "I never knew you," and will be genuinely surprised by this statement.
I hope this insight can replace your confusion with understanding.

The God that I personally serve, is love.....And this love in me, brings me to sadness at the thought of increased suffering for anyone for any reason. For this reason... I cannot get happy at the thought of others suffering more.....whether or not I feel i will be apart of that suffering.

But I can understand if others will take joy in this.....and I find no fault in it.

That is even more confusing and painful to hear. Please help. Do i not serve a God of love? Are you saying I serve a different god and i will hear "I never knew you," and will be genuinely surprised by this statement?

Please tell me what you mean by "i can understand if others will take joy in this"? It's not clear for me that you understand my joy.
 
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RaymondG

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That is even more confusing and painful to hear. Please help. Do i not serve a God of love? Are you saying I serve a different god and i will hear "I never knew you," and will be genuinely surprised by this statement?
A personal relationship with God cannot be judged by looking at appearances and reading words, So I cannot say whom you serve or dont serve.

And no, I was saying that I could be serving a different god and could hear "I never knew you," and be surprised by that statement, not you. Therefore this could be a reason why you could be confused my words.

I have to say, the I get confused comparing the things that give you joy with the things that you find painful to hear.


Please tell me what you mean by "i can understand if others will take joy in this"? It's not clear for me that you understand my joy.

All I mean is that there is nothing you can do or say that would make me condemn. We are all where we are and believe what we believe for a reason.
 
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Der Alte

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…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both שׁאולsheol and גי־הנם/gehinnom. translated as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 
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Der Alte

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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones, and a detailed multidisciplinary joint study of the debris was carried out.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem




 
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GospelS

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A personal relationship with God cannot be judged by looking at appearances and reading words, So I cannot say whom you serve or dont serve.

And no, I was saying that I could be serving a different god and could hear "I never knew you," and be surprised by that statement, not you. Therefore this could be a reason why you could be confused my words.

I have to say, the I get confused comparing the things that give you joy with the things that you find painful to hear.

All I mean is that there is nothing you can do or say that would make me condemn. We are all where we are and believe what we believe for a reason.

When you put a great deal of effort to find something and then when you finally find it, wouldn't that give you joy of finding what you were really missing, losing, and seeking for a long time.

If only you knew how intensely i searched in figuring out this word 'hell' and 'Gehenna', then you would understand my joy of finally learning and finding it. The title of OP explains that - I just 'learned' something new (learning is an effort). Of course not by my strength but the leading of the Holy Spirit that helped me learn and understand.
 
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DamianWarS

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..its Gehenna, not hell.

:amen: :amen: :clap: :clap: :wave: :wave:

Gehenna Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary


The original meaning of the word is missing in the translated word as I understood before. I used to think it as some place in the spiritual realm that is set on everlasting flame/fire from where people cannot die or escape. So what exactly did I learn: It's not just a spiritual realm, its also physical/literal. Unsaved will be resurrected to this deadly place. But their resurrected body will be different from our glorified body. They are not just souls but will have a physical resurrected body of sin that won't die. Imagine the present world without God's grace and His children. How would that be like? The burning is not just literal fire and smoke, and darkness is not just everything being black, yes heat and darkness will be there, but it has also more to do with the internal/soul suffering PAIN (fire) and LOST minds (darkness). Imagine the plight of Nebuchadnezzar when God driven him away from mankind into the wilderness and removed his human mental ability and gave him the mind of a beast and his dwelling was with the beasts. Imagine a place like Egypt when plagues hit them and on top of that its only more sin everywhere, everyone tormenting each other and devil also tormenting them. They keep weeping and gnashing their teeth. Gehenna is that. This place is outside God's Jerusalem.

P.S- I put smileys because I learned deeper meaning of God's word and His righteousness, His Justice, and His Kingdom and I take joy in that. And also because I took great effort in understanding this word and figuring it out. So I just felt joy when I finally understood it's deeper meaning.
What about the second death?
 
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RaymondG

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When you put a deal of great effort to find something and then when you finally find it, wouldn't that give you joy of finding what you were really missing, losing, and seeking for a long time.

If only you knew how intensely i searched in figuring out this word 'hell' and 'Gehenna', then you would understand my joy of finally learning and finding it. The title of OP explains that - I just 'learned' something new (learning is an effort). Of course not by my strength but the leading of the Holy Spirit that helped me learn and understand.
I agree. I find great joy in finding what I search for....no matter what it is.

May you continue to seek and find whatever you search for.
 
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GospelS

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What about the second death?

I'm yet to study that in detail. For now, i think its eternal separation from God after physical death and experiencing the pain of death (a deeper ongoing pain) every moment due to everlasting torment.
 
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dcalling

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..its Gehenna, not hell.

:amen: :amen: :clap: :clap: :wave: :wave:

Gehenna Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary


The original meaning of the word is missing in the translated word as I understood before. I used to think it as some place in the spiritual realm that is set on everlasting flame/fire from where people cannot die or escape. So what exactly did I learn: It's not just a spiritual realm, its also physical/literal. Unsaved will be resurrected to this deadly place. But their resurrected body will be different from our glorified body. They are not just souls but will have a physical resurrected body of sin that won't die. Imagine the present world without God's grace and His children. How would that be like? The burning is not just literal fire and smoke, and darkness is not just everything being black, yes heat and darkness will be there, but it has also more to do with the internal/soul suffering PAIN (fire) and LOST minds (darkness). Imagine the plight of Nebuchadnezzar when God driven him away from mankind into the wilderness and removed his human mental ability and gave him the mind of a beast and his dwelling was with the beasts. Imagine a place like Egypt when plagues hit them and on top of that its only more sin everywhere, everyone tormenting each other and devil also tormenting them. They keep weeping and gnashing their teeth. Gehenna is that. This place is outside God's Jerusalem.

P.S- I put smileys because I learned deeper meaning of God's word and His righteousness, His Justice, and His Kingdom and I take joy in that. And also because I took great effort in understanding this word and figuring it out. So I just felt joy when I finally understood it's deeper meaning.

Sometimes I thought of this as well, and I agree with you that place without God (so there is no Love) is just a dark damp place where people hate each other like burning fire forever (since there is no love).
 
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Tra Phull

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I believe and confess - so
Fireplace no go

I know that Der Alter knows much about Gehenna not being just a literal burning trash heap

Both Lazarus the beggar and the rich man in Luke 16 parable are pictured as being in HADES - with 2 sides undesirable. This parable is before Jesus' resurrection

The "harrowing of hell" is the idea that Jesus took saved souls to heaven and left unsaved in Tartarus, Hades, TORMENTS, hay-yull, Tophet...

Repentant thief on cross went to Paradise that day.

We want Paradise.
Fireplace no go.
 
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