Why I do not accept evolution part one

[Strathos]

I'll address this as a Christian, primarily directed to Christians.
The theory of evolution is in direct opposition to what the Bible has to say about where life came from. I've heard different arguments from those who accept evolution as true. I understand this to be the official position of the Roman Catholic organisation.
From a Christian perspective, I am perplexed. How is it possible for a believer to reject God's word when it is so clear?

There is nothing in the Genesis account to suggest that life evolved. The opposite. I'll not quote scripture - most readers know where to find the account. Suffice to say that the Bible states that God created everything.

The Christian who rejects the Genesis account does not call God a liar. He/she makes it out to be a myth, a parable or a metaphor. Lord Jesus did not think so. In Matthew 19:4, He declares that God created man male and female. Since Lord Jesus is the Creator, it makes sense to accept His declaration.

You know that geocentrists and flat earthers make the exact same argument, right?

 

[Speedwell]

I am ok with adaptation within a species. It fits entirely with the Bible's narrative. I am not ok with macro evolution. I've done "part one" which is addressed primarily to theistic evolutionists. I'll do part two some time in the near future. The Coronavirus has given me a good deal of spare time............

Yet speciation has been observed. How do you suppose it happens? The theory of evolution offers a satisfactory explanation. What is your explanation?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Me too, perplexed. But I kinda know why. Too much cerebral knowledge is dangerous. It suppresses the supernatural truths. It is correct. We should become like a child to see such things as God reveals them only to a child.

Behold praise of ignorance.

 

[coffee4u]

I'll address this as a Christian, primarily directed to Christians.
The theory of evolution is in direct opposition to what the Bible has to say about where life came from. I've heard different arguments from those who accept evolution as true. I understand this to be the official position of the Roman Catholic organisation.
From a Christian perspective, I am perplexed. How is it possible for a believer to reject God's word when it is so clear?

There is nothing in the Genesis account to suggest that life evolved. The opposite. I'll not quote scripture - most readers know where to find the account. Suffice to say that the Bible states that God created everything.

The Christian who rejects the Genesis account does not call God a liar. He/she makes it out to be a myth, a parable or a metaphor. Lord Jesus did not think so. In Matthew 19:4, He declares that God created man male and female. Since Lord Jesus is the Creator, it makes sense to accept His declaration.

Another problem I have is that of sin. If God dropped a blob of protoplasm into the primordial soup, which was already alive, then it is going to develop according to whatever genetic coding was introduced at the time.

How does that work? Did God just drop the blob and wander off to listen to the angel choirs and ignore the blob? Then, "Oh look. A man has evolved. Look at that! There is a female version!" How did this being gain a soul? How did he get a spirit? How did both male and female gain these attributes? Why did other animals not get them?

At what point did a man sin? How can he even be accused of sin? Since he has no knowledge of God (that's a problem with a bunch of cells that somehow form a highly complex life form), how does he know what the rules are?

Some say that God took this one being aside and inserted a soul and a spirit. Did God do this for every human being? It still does not answer the issue of sin. If one of these evolved beings sins, why should that effect every other human being who has ever lived? If this being evolved, how can the Bible say that man was created in God's image?

No, I do not buy theistic evolution. I do not claim to understand everything in God's word. I will say that if the world argues against the Bible, I stand by God's word every time.

Yes Aussie Pete I find it very depressing how many Christians on here hold firmly to secular evolution or try and somehow fit it into the Bible and claim God caused it when nothing in the Bible indicates that at all. I ask for verses and they give me none. They refuse to even acknowledge the scriptures that say sin brought in death -yet to them evolution is proven fact no matter what the Bible says to the contrary. Yet they will read about the miracles of Jesus and fully acknowledge they happen -why? Why one and not the other? It continually perplexes me.

Since you posted this to the secular area not the Christian area I will dip out now since debating atheists is a complete and utter waste of time and simply too stressful. Atheists and humanists I expect to believe in evolution- since they have nothing else to believe in. The Christians who hold onto it trouble my heart and I will continue to try with them. I took a break from the creation area recently. If you post this to the Christian section I will post back some more.

 

[pitabread]

Too much cerebral knowledge is dangerous. It suppresses the supernatural truths. It is correct.

Would it surprise you to learn that the modern Theory of Evolution has practical, useful applications? It's even being applied with respect to the current coronavirus pandemic in understanding the virus's origins.

 

[pitabread]

Since you posted this to the secular area not the Christian area I will dip out now since debating atheists is a complete and utter waste of time and simply too stressful.

Once again, just a reminder that not all of us are atheists. I'm not sure why I keep seeing creationists here automatically assuming all opposition is coming from atheists. :/

Atheists and humanists I expect to believe in evolution- since they have nothing else to believe in.

This is not true in the slightest. Perhaps you should try asking them what they believe in instead of making false assumptions. You might learn something that would help you better engage with non-believers.

You might even start to find the experience less stressful.

 

[Tanj]

How is it possible for a believer to reject God's word when it is so clear?

My guess is they didn't get the God memo which appointed you sole arbiter of what the bible means.

I've always liked the Catholic response to this, which is that God gave us two "books", the bible and the world around us, and if our study of the world disagrees with our current interpretation of the bible, then it is our interpretation which is in error.

 

[Tinker Grey]

My guess is they didn't get the God memo which appointed you sole arbiter of what the bible means.

I've always liked the Catholic response to this, which is that God gave us two "books", the bible and the world around us, and if our study of the world disagrees with our current interpretation of the bible, then it is our interpretation which is in error.

Exactly. Nature itself is God's direct communication to us (were there a god). The Bible is at best 2nd or 3rd hand info.

 

[coffee4u]

Once again, just a reminder that not all of us are atheists. I'm not sure why I keep seeing creationists here automatically assuming all opposition is coming from atheists. :/

Oh I know that you are not, you tend to be one of the more reasonable people on here, but my experience is that atheists in particular (who have already started posting to this thread) cannot be respectful. I decided a while back that I do not need the added stress. Not to say debating Christians isn't stressful too but its a different kind of stress -if that makes sense?

Since what Aussie Pete posted about is directed at Christians and is about the Bible it doesn't really pertain to those outside of that belief or fit the science area.

 

[pitabread]

That's the problem with human intellect. We do not know or understand everything and neither is it necessary. I do not say that God could not have done it with evolution. God can do what He likes, how He likes, when He likes.

What I am saying is that God's word is clear on the issue. Man was created at a particular point in time, complete and in God's image. There is no way that you can infer evolution from the Bible account in Genesis. Jesus Himself said that God made Adam and Eve. When? "From the beginning". That is not compatible with millions/billions of years of evolution.

Personally I subscribe to the "gap" theory which is not popular with a lot of Creationists. It answers a lot of questions but raises more.

How did God create everything? According to Hebrews, as no doubt you know, God commanded everything visible to come into being. It's interesting that it says "out of what is not visible". Is that "dark matter?" It's plausible.

Couple questions:

Is your issue specifically with the creation of humans? What about other species?

You subscribe to the "gap theory" of creationism, which certainly allows for the acceptance of billions of years of the Earth's history. But then how were species created throughout that time? Which species were created? When? If species were created billions of years ago, what would them preventing from evolving over that period of time?

Furthermore, you state that God simply commands everything visible to come into being. Okay, this still explain how that actually works.

So I feel like I'm still left with a bunch of contradictions. You're saying God could have used evolution, but the Bible makes it clear they didn't, but you haven't explained how they otherwise created anything.

I still don't get it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

My guess is they didn't get the God memo which appointed you sole arbiter of what the bible means.

I've always liked the Catholic response to this, which is that God gave us two "books", the bible and the world around us, and if our study of the world disagrees with our current interpretation of the bible, then it is our interpretation which is in error.

I am not a Catholic. If I told you what I think of that organisation (not individuals) I would be banned from here.

 

[Tanj]

I am not a Catholic. If I told you what I think of that organisation (not individuals) I would be banned from here.

Don't see how that's relevant, it's Catholic friends that told me they believe this, not an organisation.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Couple questions:

Is your issue specifically with the creation of humans? What about other species?

You subscribe to the "gap theory" of creationism, which certainly allows for the acceptance of billions of years of the Earth's history. But then how were species created throughout that time? Which species were created? When?

Furthermore, you state that God simply commands everything visible to come into being. Okay, this still explain how that actually works.

So I feel like I'm still left with a bunch of contradictions. You're saying God could have used evolution, but the Bible makes it clear they didn't, but you still can't explain how they otherwise created anything.

I still don't get it.

And you never will. The natural man does not accept or understand the things of God- they are foolish to him. I gave up trying to work out God about 49 years ago.

If you are serious and you want to know the truth, ask God. He will show you. I was compelled to go to an Anglican church for 3 years. Eternity to me was the one hour waste of my life each Sunday. 8 years later, I said to whatever was out there, "There has to more to life than this". I was not quite 21. God did reveal Himself to me and fundamentally saved my life, both spiritually and physically.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Don't see how that's relevant, it's Catholic friends that told me they believe this, not an organisation.

And where do you imagine they got that belief from?

 

[Speedwell]

Yes Aussie Pete I find it very depressing how many Christians on here hold firmly to secular evolution or try and somehow fit it into the Bible and claim God caused it when nothing in the Bible indicates that at all. I ask for verses and they give me none. They refuse to even acknowledge the scriptures that say sin brought in death -yet to them evolution is proven fact no matter what the Bible says to the contrary. Yet they will read about the miracles of Jesus and fully acknowledge they happen -why? Why one and not the other? It continually perplexes me.

That's because we don't try to fit into the Bible. It doesn't belong there. As to Christ's miracles, His death and Resurrection, in the first place those accounts were written many centuries after Genesis in a different language by different authors with different literary agendas. Judging the historicity of Genesis by the same standards as one judges the historicity of the Gospels makes no sense. In the second place, Christians who have no problem with the theory of evolution are for the most part not Protestants and thus do not subscribe to Sola Scriptura. It gives us a rather different view of the role and authority of scripture than yours. Yes, I believe in the Gospel miracles but not just because it says so in the Bible.

Since you posted this to the secular area not the Christian area I will dip out now since debating atheists is a complete and utter waste of time and simply too stressful. Atheists and humanists I expect to believe in evolution- since they have nothing else to believe in. The Christians who hold onto it trouble my heart and I will continue to try with them. I took a break from the creation area recently. If you post this to the Christian section I will post back some more.

Good luck. I used to go there too, but it became too nasty and unwelcoming. I'm an Anglican (a "Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie"). It's one of the reasons changed my profile from "Christian" to "other religion"

 

[Tanj]

And where do you imagine they got that belief from?

The same place you got yours, some person or persons claiming authority over what God said.

 

[Tinker Grey]

And you never will. The natural man does not accept or understand the things of God- they are foolish to him. I gave up trying to work out God about 49 years ago.

What a cop-out. This is the sort of thing every cult leader has ever said and every acolyte has bobbed their head yes to.

If you are serious and you want to know the truth, ask God. He will show you. I was compelled to go to an Anglican church for 3 years. Eternity to me was the one hour waste of my life each Sunday. 8 years later, I said to whatever was out there, "There has to more to life than this". I was not quite 21. God did reveal Himself to me and fundamentally saved my life, both spiritually and physically.

I was a Christian for 44 years. I wept and cried as my faith waned asking God for something, anything. You know what I got? Nothing.

Such a god is not worth my time ... nor, anyone's.

 

[SkyWriting]

To be clear, you are ok with god using natural mechanisms to change life, but not ok with him using natural mechanisms to start life? Correct?

Not correct. But being Knee deep in all the life that exists in the galaxy, you'd think we could come up with one possible observation that would explain why a rock would want to live rather than stay a rock. Life is an engineering miracle.

 

[46AND2]

Not correct. But being Knee deep in all the life that exists in the galaxy, you'd think we could come up with one possible observation that would explain why a rock would want to live rather than stay a rock. Life is an engineering miracle.

We haven't even observed all life on on earth as it is. By that rational, we should have already discovered all species.

 

[pitabread]

And you never will. The natural man does not accept or understand the things of God- they are foolish to him. I gave up trying to work out God about 49 years ago.

There is huge body of scientific knowledge about biological evolution which has been accumulated over hundreds of years. It has real world applications (yes, even common descent) and is foundational to modern biology.

Creationists are suggesting that some or possibly most of that knowledge is incorrect. Yet, when I look to creationists to see what they are proposing to replace that knowledge with, it's always a dead end.

To me this the contradiction of the creationist position: you're insisting that the knowledge we have about the origin of species is wrong. Yet you can't explain what is right.

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As an analogy, imagine if someone kept telling you that everything you know about mathematics is wrong. But at the same time, they can't explain how math is otherwise supposed to work. They're effectively just asking you to forget everything you know about math and be done with it.

Does that seem reasonable to you?

If you are serious and you want to know the truth, ask God. He will show you. I was compelled to go to an Anglican church for 3 years. Eternity to me was the one hour waste of my life each Sunday. 8 years later, I said to whatever was out there, "There has to more to life than this". I was not quite 21. God did reveal Himself to me and fundamentally saved my life, both spiritually and physically.

Oh, I'm already quite comfortable in my own spiritual/philosophical beliefs. I myself went through a spiritual crisis when I was younger and I've arrived at my own beliefs that I am secure in. So I'm not specifically seeking out the Christian faith.

My path is my own, just like your path is your own.