Torah and Grace. Everyone Has A Role.

[klutedavid]

God uses each one of us in various ways for various purposes. All God’s word given to us is needed.

If you are preaching Grace, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Torah.

And if you are preaching Torah, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Grace.

It is God’s business and He knows what He’s doing. God bless.

Those putting Gentiles under the law are committing a profound sin in the eyes of God. The law was only given to the nation of Israel, not to the Gentile nations.

I cannot stand aside and watch Gentiles being seduced by legalism.

 

[klutedavid]

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun.



(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

When you quote from John's first letter ensure that you also quote the commands that John listed.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

See how accurately I read the scripture, Hark. You can learn to do this also.

Your method of interpretation is erroneous.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why did David ask YHWH not to take his Ruach Ha'Kodesh from him?

(CLV) Ps 51:11
Do not fling me from Your presence, And do not take Your holy spirit from me.

The Holy spirit is God. He was yearning for God to speak to him and interact with Him. But never did God dwell inside of him like He does with Christians who have been regenerated through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The day of Pentecost was far in the future.

 

[HARK!]

When you quote from John's first letter ensure that you also quote the commands that John listed.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

See how accurately I read the scripture, Hark. You can learn to do this also.

Your method of interpretation is erroneous.

You left out a whole lot of his commandments. Keep trying.

 

[HARK!]

The Holy spirit is God. He was yearning for God to speak to him and interact with Him. But never did God dwell inside of him.

The Ruach Ha'Kodesh is not YHWH. One easy way to tell, is just to look at the verses I posted.


(CLV) Ps 51:11
Do not fling me from Your presence, And do not take Your holy spirit from me.

(CLV) Isa 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved His holy spirit, So that He was turned to be their Enemy. And He Himself fought against them.

(CLV) Isa 63:11
Yet He remembers the days of the eon, of Moses and His people. Where is He Who brought them up from the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He Who placed among them His holy spirit,

Possessive pronouns show possession.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The Ruach Ha'Kodesh is not YHWH. One easy way to tell, is just to look at the verses I posted.


(CLV) Ps 51:11
Do not fling me from Your presence, And do not take Your holy spirit from me.

(CLV) Isa 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved His holy spirit, So that He was turned to be their Enemy. And He Himself fought against them.

(CLV) Isa 63:11
Yet He remembers the days of the eon, of Moses and His people. Where is He Who brought them up from the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He Who placed among them His holy spirit,

Possessive pronouns show possession.

I am a Trinitarian. God interacts with man through His Holy Spirit.

 

[klutedavid]

You left out a whole lot of his commandments. Keep trying.

A whole lot of His commandments?

Still searching 1 John and I found a repeat of the first two commandments.

1 John 4:15-16
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

What other commandment could there possibly be, than to love Jesus and others?

Your still not fixated with not eating animals with cloven hoofs?

 

[HARK!]

I am a Trinitarian. God interacts with man through His Holy Spirit.

His Ruach Ha'Kodesh!

Now you have it!

 

[HARK!]

A whole lot of His commandments?

Still searching 1 John and I found a repeat of the first two commandments.

1 John 4:15-16
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

What other commandment could there possibly be, than to love Jesus and others?

Your still not fixated with not eating animals with cloven hoofs?

Let me help you out, Here's a biggie!


(CLV) 1Jn 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols!


Keep trying! I'm rooting for you!

 

[Dale]

God uses each one of us in various ways for various purposes. All God’s word given to us is needed.

If you are preaching Grace, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Torah.

And if you are preaching Torah, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Grace.

It is God’s business and He knows what He’s doing. God bless.

What happened to the prophets? Do they have nothing to say to us? You skip over them completely.

The books of the prophets take up a large part of the Old Testament. Surely there is something to be learned from them.

The Torah puts restrictions on what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. I don't believe that the prophets ever refer to food laws. In that sense the prophets anticipate the teaching of Jesus that it is what comes out of a man, or woman, deeds and actions, and not what is eaten that is of paramount importance.

 

[klutedavid]

Let me help you out, Here's a biggie!


(CLV) 1Jn 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols!


Keep trying! I'm rooting for you!

Which is another way of saying don't get distracted from Jesus. You must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and only Him.

Keep rooting for me, Hark.

 

[klutedavid]

What happened to the prophets? Do they have nothing to say to us? You skip over them completely.

The books of the prophets take up a large part of the Old Testament. Surely there is something to be learned from them.

The Torah puts restrictions on what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. I don't believe that the prophets ever refer to food laws. In that sense the prophets anticipate the teaching of Jesus that it is what comes out of a man, or woman, deeds and actions, and not what is eaten that is of paramount importance.

Actually Acts 15 prohibits eating meat with the blood still in it.

Though Acts 15 may represent an attempt to curb the revulsion that the Jews had for those filthy, sinful Gentiles. The diet of the Gentiles was an abomination to the Jews. We see this ever so clearly in the instruction not to eat strangled animals.

Acts 15 is simply getting the Jews and Gentiles to fellowship by removing the road blocks for the Jews.

 

[HARK!]

I don't believe that the prophets ever refer to food laws. In that sense the prophets anticipate the teaching of Jesus that it is what comes out of a man, or woman, deeds and actions, and not what is eaten that is of paramount importance.

I've begun a study on the prophets proclaiming the return of the Levitical Priesthood in the Kingdom to come. It's very interesting. I can hardly wait until I have time to really dig into that one.

I've been meaning to talk to someone who has a strong foundation in the prophets.

What do yo make of this verse from Isaiah 66:3?

New King James Version
“He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations,

 

[HARK!]

Keep rooting for me, Hark.

Will do David!

 

[Soyeong]

Its not "Torah vs Grace", its "The Old Covenant" vs "The New Covenant".

These two covenants have some similarities, but many differences, too.

Its chaotic to use them both or make a mixture of their parts. We must live in the new covenant completely.

Amen, Satan tries to mix the old and new covenant together to make a twisted confusion of a covenant when the Scripture clearly states Christians are to live in the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)​

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in the same ways and express the same character traits. For example, the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under, though as part of the New Covenant those who do not follow those instructions are not children of God (1 John 3:10). Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal righteousness and righteous law did not become obsolete along with it.

 

[Oldmantook]

I have both heard and considered this option before brother. When Christ said that he came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill, it must be noted that he said not one jot or tittle will be till all be fulfilled meaning completed or finished. Yahshua came to fulfill(complete) the Old covenant if it still stands then there cannot be a New.
The Ten commandments are eternal, so the act of adultery is attributed to the ten rather than the Mosaic, and the Spiritual Law about lusting with our eyes to commit adultery in our heart is contained in the Law of the Spirit(Law of Christ). So Physical and Spiritual are both clearly shown in the New covenant. When the Ten Commandments were coupled with the Mosaic law life could not come because it was not of Grace, but now with the Ten commandments paired with the Law of Christ life can come through grace.

I appreciate hearing your thoughts and your response brother,
God bless you

I respect your opinion. In fact I used to share your view with respect to the old and new covenants. However when I began to study this subject for myself instead of just accepting what I was taught, I began to notice discrepancies.
You might want to reread Matt 5:14 as it states that not one jot or tittle will be till all is fulfilled - refers to heaven and earth passing away.
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Since heaven and earth still exists, the law in its entirety still exists Given this, the new covenant and the old covenant exist simultaneously. The primary difference is that the old covenant has now been made obsolete by the atonement. However what most fail to distinguish is that obsolete does not mean abolish but means out of date. For example, I can purchase a brand new car this year but by next year 2021, it will be made out of date by a newer model; however my car still exists and I still use it.
Heb 8:13 illustrates this.
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. ESV
This verse is a peculiar one because the Greek word for obsolete is rendered in the perfect tense in the first sentence and in the present tense in the second sentence. The Greek perfect tense indicates a completed action but the results of that action continue on. The Greek present tense indicates continuous action. Thus in this verse the old covenant has been made obsolete (completed action) but the results of that action continue on till this day. That is why the second sentence in this verse states: is becoming obsolete and growing old.

The law has been made obsolete by Christ's atonement (a completed action with continuing results) but its effects are still being felt today as it is becoming obsolete (present tense) and growing old (present tense). Thus the law is ready to vanish away but has not - until such time that heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Soyeong]

What do you think about those who preach grace and the Law of Christ, but preach against the keeping of the Mosaic law? Should those who keep the New covenant Law be silent while people are still submitting themselves to the Old covenant Law(in your view)?

God is not in disagreement with Himself about while laws we should follow, but rather the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what he taught by word and by example. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how Jesus showed his grace to us, and it is contradictory to preach grace and the Law of Christ while preaching against keeping the Mosaic Law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's eternal law.

I have both heard and considered this option before brother. When Christ said that he came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill, it must be noted that he said not one jot or tittle will be till all be fulfilled meaning completed or finished. Yahshua came to fulfill(complete) the Old covenant if it still stands then there cannot be a New.
The Ten commandments are eternal, so the act of adultery is attributed to the ten rather than the Mosaic, and the Spiritual Law about lusting with our eyes to commit adultery in our heart is contained in the Law of the Spirit(Law of Christ). So Physical and Spiritual are both clearly shown in the New covenant. When the Ten Commandments were coupled with the Mosaic law life could not come because it was not of Grace, but now with the Ten commandments paired with the Law of Christ life can come through grace.

I appreciate hearing your thoughts and your response brother,
God bless you

Jesus was one of countless people who fulfilled the law by teaching how to correct obey it by word and by example. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), not just ten of them. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, and Jesus was sinless, therefore he did not do that. The command not to look at a woman with lust in our hearts is just the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and against coveting in our hearts, not something brand new.

 

[Soyeong]

What happened to the prophets? Do they have nothing to say to us? You skip over them completely.

The books of the prophets take up a large part of the Old Testament. Surely there is something to be learned from them.

The Torah puts restrictions on what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. I don't believe that the prophets ever refer to food laws. In that sense the prophets anticipate the teaching of Jesus that it is what comes out of a man, or woman, deeds and actions, and not what is eaten that is of paramount importance.

Do you think that Jesus was expressing disagreement with what the Father had commanded in Deuteronomy 14 and calling into question whether it should be considered to be Scripture?

 

[klutedavid]

God is not in disagreement with Himself about while laws we should follow, but rather the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what he taught by word and by example. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how Jesus showed his grace to us, and it is contradictory to preach grace and the Law of Christ while preaching against keeping the Mosaic Law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's eternal law.



Jesus was one of countless people who fulfilled the law by teaching how to correct obey it by word and by example. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), not just ten of them. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, and Jesus was sinless, therefore he did not do that. The command not to look at a woman with lust in our hearts is just the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and against coveting in our hearts, not something brand new.

The law of Christ is above the law of Moses. Any attempt at being righteous by obeying the letter of the law is a work of the flesh.

The Holy Spirit wrote love onto your heart in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

What else can be written on our hearts but love?

The law condemns.

Love conquers.

 

[Soyeong]

The law of Christ is above the law of Moses. Any attempt at being righteous by obeying the letter of the law is a work of the flesh.

The Holy Spirit wrote love onto your heart in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

What else can be written on our hearts but love?

The law condemns.

Love conquers.

If the the law that Christ taught were not the same as the law that the Father taught, then Christ would be in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, and I see no indication of any disagreement. On the contrary, in John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father.

We are not made righteous by obeying God's law because it was never given for that purpose in the first place, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. The Bible never describes obedience to God's law as being works of the flesh, but rather those are in disobedience to it. For example, in Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so obedience to it is what love looks like.

Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children for the primary purpose of condemning them for those following those instructions, but rather they give instructions to their children for their own good in order to teach them how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).