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Skeptical theism and the evidential problem of evil

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From wiki:

The evidential argument from evil

"The evidential argument from evil asserts that the amount, types, or distribution of evils, provide an evidential basis for concluding that God's existence is improbable. The argument has a number of formulation, but can be stated in the Modus ponens logical form:

  1. If an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God exists, there should be no gratuitous evil.
  2. There exists instances of gratuitous evil.
  3. Therefore, an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God does not exist.
In this logical form the conclusion (3) is true, if both the major premise (1) and minor premise (2) are true. Philosophers have challenged both premises, but skeptical theism focus is on the minor premise (2).

In 1979, philosopher William Rowe provided a defense of the minor premise (2). He argued that no state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting some instances of horrific suffering. Therefore, Rowe concludes, it is likely that no state of affairs exists that would morally justify that being in permitting such suffering. In other words, Rowe argues that his inability to think of a good reason why God would allow a particular evil justifies the conclusion that there is no such reason, and the conclusion that God does not exist."

The "noseeum" inference

The philosophers Michael Bergmann and Michael Rea described William Rowe's justification for the second premise of the argument from evil:

Some evidential arguments from evil ... rely on a “noseeum” inference of the following sort: NI: If, after thinking hard, we can’t think of any God-justifying reason for permitting some horrific evil then it is likely that there is no such reason. (The reason NI is called a ‘noseeum’ inference is that it says, more or less, that because we don’t see ‘um, they probably ain’t there.)

Various analogies are offered to show that the noseeum inference is logically dubious. For example, a novice chess player's inability to discern a chess master's choice of moves cannot be used to infer that there is no good reason for the move.

The skeptical theist's response

Skeptical theism provides a defense against the evidential argument from evil, but does not take a position on God’s actual reason for allowing a particular instance of evil. The defense seeks to show that there are good reasons to believe that God could have justified reasons for allowing a particular evil that we cannot discern. Consequently, we are in no position to endorse the minor premise (2) of the argument from evil because we cannot be more than agnostic about the accuracy of the premise. This conclusion would be an undercutting defeater for the premise because there would be no justification for the conclusion that evils in our world are gratuitous. To justify this conclusion, the skeptical theist argues that the limits of human cognitive faculties are grounds for skepticism about our ability to draw conclusions about God's motives or lack of motives; it is therefore reasonable to doubt the second premise. Bergmann and Rae thus concluded that Rowe's inference is unsound."

Skeptical theism - Wikipedia

Thoughts?

 

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"Christian" Apologetics:

Jesus says His sheep HEAR Jesus' Voice and KNOW it, and FOLLOW JESUS.

We will not listen to another voice. Even though the world is full of an abundance of other voices.

Thank you, Jeff. Do you have any thoughts on the OP?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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4. Therefore, an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God is not the god of this world..
(i did not see the previous)

Yahweh is NOT the god of this world.

The prince of the power of the air, to whom the world's population is all subjects, is the devil. Thus the world is full of sons of disobedience.
 
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Be more specific. There was too much unclear to read it... even the purpose of it - what is it ?

Do you think we can know God's reason's for allowing evil (assuming God has reasons and evil is not gratuitous)?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Do you think we can know God's reason's for allowing evil (assuming God has reasons and evil is not gratuitous)?
Most people have no idea (never know, or at least never repent ).

What God says in His Word is Truth. He says quite a bit about evil, that people , even Christians, reject.

Every time Jesus revealed sin, He also revealed the solution !
 
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Tolworth John

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If an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God exists, there should be no gratuitous evil

It does not follow that God will not permit the existence of evil.
If man has the ability to choose between good and evil, there has to be the option for the consequence of that choice.
Adam choose evil.

Apart from this what is 'good' and what is 'evil' ?
Without defining these the discussion is meaningless.
 
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com7fy8

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Rowe argues that his inability to think of a good reason why God would allow a particular evil justifies the conclusion that there is no such reason
Well, if God does not allow evil, then it is silly to consider there is a reason why He allows evil . . . if He does not.

There is evil, but this does not have to mean God is allowing it.

the conclusion that evils in our world are gratuitous
I'll try to find out what you mean, here, by "gratuitous" evil.

I thought gratuitous means free of charge, or there is no reason for someone to do something the person does.

Well, I do not think God is allowing evil, but He has control of what can happen and how far it can go. Plus, He makes His good use, somehow, of every thing. But this does not mean He wants it, or causes it, or allows it; but He is making use of it . . . including how He has used the crucifixion of Christ > we can see how God even planned how the murder of Jesus on the cross would go; but this was not just allowing, but there was planning, but also overcoming the evil.

And I think we can see how evil is being controlled, somehow, and often there are ways it is stopped and limited . . . even organized in ways that evil might not want to organize its own self. May be it can be like how Australian rabbits are evil to destroy vegetation; so people might corral them to a net. They don't allow the rabbits; but they manage their evil. And they can make good use, maybe by using the pelts and meat, or feeding rabbits to dingos so they don't raid sheep.

Do you think we can know God's reason's for allowing evil (assuming God has reasons and evil is not gratuitous)?
Well, as I offered, God does not allow evil. Plus, He does not have reasons for it, but He does use it.

But I would say evil might be said to be gratuitous . . . depending on how we define gratuitous. We see how stupid Satan is, no reason at all for what he does. I guess we can say evil is like this . . . with no reason, no benefit to Satan and his people, for being selfish and conceited. They can be like rabbits that just chew things up, and do not grow anything good. But God is corralling evil to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. Fire is the only way to control such stubborn beings.
 
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ZNP

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He argued that no state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting some instances of horrific suffering. Therefore, Rowe concludes, it is likely that no state of affairs exists that would morally justify that being in permitting such suffering.

I think it is an excellent question, it leads to wonderful insights into God and the Bible, but I am always disappointed in the atheists who ask this because they are asking a question that they feel is unanswerable and in my experience will close their ears to the answer.

Still, let’s begin. I agree with what William Rowe has said. But let’s break it down so there is no question about what it is I agree with.


1. I believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient, two attributes that define what it is to be God.


2. I agree there are many examples of horrific suffering in human history.


3. I agree that since God is omnipotent and omniscient He is ultimately responsible, not for perpetrating these horrific acts of evil but for allowing them. Being omniscient He foresaw this would happen. Being omnipotent He is the one that created the world we live in.



That is what I mean when I say I agree with William Rowe’s statement.


Now I would also like to point out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. He cannot lie.


Now most atheists who bring this argument feel that it is rock solid. God created everything, if we have evil then God created it, yet I argue that in God there is no evil and therefore could not have created it and yet I also agree that many things that have happened in human history are evil.

To me the Bible gives a very clear answer on this and it is the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. God gave us two choices, we could obey God unquestioning, whether we understood or not, whatever He says do it, and that would have been the tree of life. Or we could choose to “be like God” figure these things out for ourselves by trial and error, learn from our mistakes, and basically take a scientific approach to life. That is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, if you choose the second approach it means that we will make every single possible mistake, and we will have evil men like Hitler. So just like scientists go into controlled environment of the lab to do experiments God said that if we choose this second tree that the moment we do that it is a controlled environment. The first thing that happens is that we die even though our souls are eternal. This limits the potential damage to an extraordinary degree (what is our life compared to eternity -- a vapor, a mist). 2nd we cannot take the tree of life and cannot live eternally, for someone like Hitler to do that would clearly violate what a benevolent God could allow. God has essentially created a simulated world. You can move and act in this world, it reveals the thoughts and intents of the heart, but when your time in the simulation is up you must wait for the final judgement. Hebrews describes those in the simulation as being on the field of play while all those who have died before us surround us in the stadium and are watching what is going on intently because apart from us they cannot be made perfect. Determining whether or not your life is perfect is dependent on the life and actions of those that follow you, similar to the Lord saying “you will know them by their fruit”. Also, when we are finally judged it says the thoughts and intents of our heart will be made plain, and we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. To me this is like the black box of an airplane, and our final judgement is very similar to the trial and judgment of Captain Sully, depicted in the movie Sully. During that trial the airplane in the simulation crashed into apartment buildings trying to land at Laquardia and again trying to land at Teeterboro, but these were simulations. No one views the horror of a commercial airline filled with passengers and crashing into apartment complexes in a computer simulation as truly evil, only simulated evil. Likewise this life there is no real evil the can touch eternity, only simulated evil.
 
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Well, if God does not allow evil, then it is silly to consider there is a reason why He allows evil . . . if He does not.

There is evil, but this does not have to mean God is allowing it.

I'll try to find out what you mean, here, by "gratuitous" evil.

I thought gratuitous means free of charge, or there is no reason for someone to do something the person does.

Well, I do not think God is allowing evil, but He has control of what can happen and how far it can go. Plus, He makes His good use, somehow, of every thing. But this does not mean He wants it, or causes it, or allows it; but He is making use of it . . . including how He has used the crucifixion of Christ > we can see how God even planned how the murder of Jesus on the cross would go; but this was not just allowing, but there was planning, but also overcoming the evil.

And I think we can see how evil is being controlled, somehow, and often there are ways it is stopped and limited . . . even organized in ways that evil might not want to organize its own self. May be it can be like how Australian rabbits are evil to destroy vegetation; so people might corral them to a net. They don't allow the rabbits; but they manage their evil. And they can make good use, maybe by using the pelts and meat, or feeding rabbits to dingos so they don't raid sheep.

Well, as I offered, God does not allow evil. Plus, He does not have reasons for it, but He does use it.

But I would say evil might be said to be gratuitous . . . depending on how we define gratuitous. We see how stupid Satan is, no reason at all for what he does. I guess we can say evil is like this . . . with no reason, no benefit to Satan and his people, for being selfish and conceited. They can be like rabbits that just chew things up, and do not grow anything good. But God is corralling evil to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. Fire is the only way to control such stubborn beings.

Gratuitous evil means there is no reason, no purpose for it. The atheist is arguing that if God is tri-omni, then there would be no gratuitous evil. And yet, there is. Therefore, no tri-omni God.

The skeptical theist is saying we are not in the epistemic position to know if gratuitous evils exist. God may have reasons to which we are not privy. Therefore, the atheist's argument is not sound.

Does that help?
 
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public hermit

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He argued that no state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting some instances of horrific suffering. Therefore, Rowe concludes, it is likely that no state of affairs exists that would morally justify that being in permitting such suffering.

I think it is an excellent question, it leads to wonderful insights into God and the Bible, but I am always disappointed in the atheists who ask this because they are asking a question that they feel is unanswerable and in my experience will close their ears to the answer.

Still, let’s begin. I agree with what William Rowe has said. But let’s break it down so there is no question about what it is I agree with.


1. I believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient, two attributes that define what it is to be God.


2. I agree there are many examples of horrific suffering in human history.


3. I agree that since God is omnipotent and omniscient He is ultimately responsible, not for perpetrating these horrific acts of evil but for allowing them. Being omniscient He foresaw this would happen. Being omnipotent He is the one that created the world we live in.



That is what I mean when I say I agree with William Rowe’s statement.


Now I would also like to point out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. He cannot lie.


Now most atheists who bring this argument feel that it is rock solid. God created everything, if we have evil then God created it, yet I argue that in God there is no evil and therefore could not have created it and yet I also agree that many things that have happened in human history are evil.

To me the Bible gives a very clear answer on this and it is the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. God gave us two choices, we could obey God unquestioning, whether we understood or not, whatever He says do it, and that would have been the tree of life. Or we could choose to “be like God” figure these things out for ourselves by trial and error, learn from our mistakes, and basically take a scientific approach to life. That is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, if you choose the second approach it means that we will make every single possible mistake, and we will have evil men like Hitler. So just like scientists go into controlled environment of the lab to do experiments God said that if we choose this second tree that the moment we do that it is a controlled environment. The first thing that happens is that we die even though our souls are eternal. This limits the potential damage to an extraordinary degree (what is our life compared to eternity -- a vapor, a mist). 2nd we cannot take the tree of life and cannot live eternally, for someone like Hitler to do that would clearly violate what a benevolent God could allow. God has essentially created a simulated world. You can move and act in this world, it reveals the thoughts and intents of the heart, but when your time in the simulation is up you must wait for the final judgement. Hebrews describes those in the simulation as being on the field of play while all those who have died before us surround us in the stadium and are watching what is going on intently because apart from us they cannot be made perfect. Determining whether or not your life is perfect is dependent on the life and actions of those that follow you, similar to the Lord saying “you will know them by their fruit”. Also, when we are finally judged it says the thoughts and intents of our heart will be made plain, and we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. To me this is like the black box of an airplane, and our final judgement is very similar to the trial and judgment of Captain Sully, depicted in the movie Sully. During that trial the airplane in the simulation crashed into apartment buildings trying to land at Laquardia and again trying to land at Teeterboro, but these were simulations. No one views the horror of a commercial airline filled with passengers and crashing into apartment complexes in a computer simulation as truly evil, only simulated evil. Likewise this life there is no real evil the can touch eternity, only simulated evil.

So, contra Rowe, are you saying God is morally justified in permitting the evil and suffering in this world because it is only simulated?
 
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ZNP

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So, contra Rowe, are you saying God is morally justified in permitting the evil and suffering in this world because it is only simulated?
I am saying that the evil you see is no more real than the evil that takes place in a video game when you see the little pixels change color. The Bible says the same thing:
4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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From wiki:

The evidential argument from evil

"The evidential argument from evil asserts that the amount, types, or distribution of evils, provide an evidential basis for concluding that God's existence is improbable. The argument has a number of formulation, but can be stated in the Modus ponens logical form:

  1. If an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God exists, there should be no gratuitous evil.
  2. There exists instances of gratuitous evil.
  3. Therefore, an omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent God does not exist.
In this logical form the conclusion (3) is true, if both the major premise (1) and minor premise (2) are true. Philosophers have challenged both premises, but skeptical theism focus is on the minor premise (2).

In 1979, philosopher William Rowe provided a defense of the minor premise (2). He argued that no state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting some instances of horrific suffering. Therefore, Rowe concludes, it is likely that no state of affairs exists that would morally justify that being in permitting such suffering. In other words, Rowe argues that his inability to think of a good reason why God would allow a particular evil justifies the conclusion that there is no such reason, and the conclusion that God does not exist."

The "noseeum" inference

The philosophers Michael Bergmann and Michael Rea described William Rowe's justification for the second premise of the argument from evil:

Some evidential arguments from evil ... rely on a “noseeum” inference of the following sort: NI: If, after thinking hard, we can’t think of any God-justifying reason for permitting some horrific evil then it is likely that there is no such reason. (The reason NI is called a ‘noseeum’ inference is that it says, more or less, that because we don’t see ‘um, they probably ain’t there.)

Various analogies are offered to show that the noseeum inference is logically dubious. For example, a novice chess player's inability to discern a chess master's choice of moves cannot be used to infer that there is no good reason for the move.

The skeptical theist's response

Skeptical theism provides a defense against the evidential argument from evil, but does not take a position on God’s actual reason for allowing a particular instance of evil. The defense seeks to show that there are good reasons to believe that God could have justified reasons for allowing a particular evil that we cannot discern. Consequently, we are in no position to endorse the minor premise (2) of the argument from evil because we cannot be more than agnostic about the accuracy of the premise. This conclusion would be an undercutting defeater for the premise because there would be no justification for the conclusion that evils in our world are gratuitous. To justify this conclusion, the skeptical theist argues that the limits of human cognitive faculties are grounds for skepticism about our ability to draw conclusions about God's motives or lack of motives; it is therefore reasonable to doubt the second premise. Bergmann and Rae thus concluded that Rowe's inference is unsound."

Skeptical theism - Wikipedia

Thoughts?
As an atheist I don't find this argument very convincing. This argument assumes that a god must be good. This argument to me says nothing about the existence of god but the ethics of god if he exists. No where does it say that a god must be good. Practically most Christians are not persuaded by this and will go to verses such as Romans 8:28 or that we cannot understand gods ways etc. I think the better argument against the christian god is divine hiddenness.
 
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ZNP

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As an atheist I don't find this argument very convincing. This argument assumes that a god must be good. This argument to me says nothing about the existence of god but the ethics of god if he exists. No where does it say that a god must be good. Practically most Christians are not persuaded by this and will go to verses such as Romans 8:28 or that we cannot understand gods ways etc. I think the better argument against the christian god is divine hiddenness.
The point of the logical argument is that the God described in the Bible as being both omnipotent and omniscient and also being described as a good God, righteous, loving and merciful cannot exist if there is horrible evil in the world.

The argument does not in any way dispute the existence of an immoral God.

However, if you look at everything the Bible teaches concerning this life, the afterlife, the coming judgement and eternity then this life would best be described as a computer simulation that determines where we go for eternity. That in turn means that the horrible evil in this world is simulated, it is a vapor, a mist, a temporary suffering that cannot be compared to the glory and joy of the coming age.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As an atheist I don't find this argument very convincing. This argument assumes that a god must be good. This argument to me says nothing about the existence of god but the ethics of god if he exists. No where does it say that a god must be good. Practically most Christians are not persuaded by this and will go to verses such as Romans 8:28 or that we cannot understand gods ways etc. I think the better argument against the christian god is divine hiddenness.

I think I agree with you that the 'hiddenness' argument is a better one than the argument(S) from Evil. :cool:
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The point of the logical argument is that the God described in the Bible as being both omnipotent and omniscient and also being described as a good God, righteous, loving and merciful cannot exist if there is horrible evil in the world.

The argument does not in any way dispute the existence of an immoral God.

However, if you look at everything the Bible teaches concerning this life, the afterlife, the coming judgement and eternity then this life would best be described as a computer simulation that determines where we go for eternity. That in turn means that the horrible evil in this world is simulated, it is a vapor, a mist, a temporary suffering that cannot be compared to the glory and joy of the coming age.
Yes, but these are people that are actually suffering. Mainstream Christian doctrine says that either you will suffer more after death or not at all. Christianity as you stated it here says to suffering people deal with it and after you die you will be better off. That is sorry in my opinion. If God exists and allows terrible suffering such as kids being raped and such and does not stop it without further information all I can conclude is that god is immoral if he exists.

Without good evidence that there is an afterlife I will advocate to help suffering people here and now.
 
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ZNP

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Yes, but these are people that are actually suffering. Mainstream Christian doctrine says that either you will suffer more after death or not at all. Christianity as you stated it here says to suffering people deal with it and after you die you will be better off. That is sorry in my opinion. If God exists and allows terrible suffering such as kids being raped and such and does not stop it without further information all I can conclude is that god is immoral if he exists.

Without good evidence that there is an afterlife I will advocate to help suffering people here and now.
That is a very interesting and valid point, but it is not what is being discussed in this thread. A logical argument was made, I have agreed with every premise made and have shown that these do not preclude a moral God.

If you want to start a different thread concerning "eternal punishment" and the existence of a moral God I would be interested in looking at that.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That is a very interesting and valid point, but it is not what is being discussed in this thread. A logical argument was made, I have agreed with every premise made and have shown that these do not preclude a moral God.

If you want to start a different thread concerning "eternal punishment" and the existence of a moral God I would be interested in looking at that.
Whatever, you brought this up and now don't want to discuss it.
 
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