Is the Rapture biblical?

sovereigngrace

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I have never met such "they's."
However, John is very clear on more than one resurrection to an eternal, resurrection body.
Jesus was the first a long time ago.

The resurrection and catching up of those in christ when Jesus comes the second time will be the next wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections.

The catching up of the 144,000 will be the next wave - around the midpoint of the future 70th week.

The catching up and resurrection of the Old Testament saints and 70th week martyrs - including the two witnesses - will be the final wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections that is for the righteous which will happen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Speaking of two:
There is going to be TWO MORE TIMEs the signs in the sun and moon will be seen:
First as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, the sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red - as the sign of the Day of the Lord.

Next, over 7 years later, both the sun and the moon will be dark - and so will the stars - as shown in matthew 24 and in Joel 3. It will be the sign of the coming of the Lord to Armageddon. The sign is total darkness.

In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is NOT THE SAME sign as at the 6th seal.

The only rapture passage that you bring to the table (namely 2 Thessalonians 4) is climactic, witnessing sudden and total destruction. None are said to escape. You say everyone escapes. The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

Scripture forbids your theory.
 
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summerville

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I have never met such "they's."
However, John is very clear on more than one resurrection to an eternal, resurrection body.
Jesus was the first a long time ago.

The resurrection and catching up of those in christ when Jesus comes the second time will be the next wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections.

The catching up of the 144,000 will be the next wave - around the midpoint of the future 70th week.

The catching up and resurrection of the Old Testament saints and 70th week martyrs - including the two witnesses - will be the final wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections that is for the righteous which will happen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Speaking of two:
There is going to be TWO MORE TIMEs the signs in the sun and moon will be seen:
First as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, the sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red - as the sign of the Day of the Lord.

Next, over 7 years later, both the sun and the moon will be dark - and so will the stars - as shown in matthew 24 and in Joel 3. It will be the sign of the coming of the Lord to Armageddon. The sign is total darkness.

In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is NOT THE SAME sign as at the 6th seal.

Some rapturists today cite Acts 8:39, saying it uses the same Greek word that is translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. They say that the fact the Spirit of God “caught [Philip] away” shows that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means that the saints are caught away to heaven. Yet the Spirit did not transport Philip to heaven, but rather from one place on the earth to another.

The saints of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, on the other hand, rise to meet the Lord in the air.


The words “blessed hope” also often appear in rapture literature. In fact, “The Blessed Hope” is the name by which some denominations refer to the rapture doctrine. They take “blessed hope” from Titus 2:13, where Paul writes, “looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

The implication is that the word “appearance” conveys something secretive and sudden; that is, the rapture. Therefore, “blessed hope” becomes a sort of shorthand for the rapture in literature and films on the doctrine. A few other New Testament references that mention “the appearing of Christ” are also often cited, as if these scriptures strengthen their case.

continued

The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul is clear, those in Christ get "salvation" (raptured or caught up) and get "to live together with Him (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those NOT in christ get "sudden destruction."

WHY then do some get sudden destruction while others do not? Paul tells us: some get caught up. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake caused when God resurrects the dead in Christ (found around the world). No one left behind can escape because the ground will be shaking everywhere.

What better way to say it than to say those caught in the sudden destruction are "left behind." Or could we say they are NOT "taken."

Where does it say that the church that is caught up goes to heaven in 1 Thess 4? Please give me a Scripture?
 
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summerville

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The only rapture passage that you bring to the table (namely 2 Thessalonians 4) is climactic, witnessing sudden and total destruction. None are said to escape. You say everyone escapes. The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

Scripture forbids your theory.

There was no rapture doctrine until 1830.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You know the passage! Luke 17:

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

See #358 above.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There was no rapture doctrine until 1830.

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Will YOU choose to escape what is coming here, or will you choose to stay behind?

This is out of order and should be stopped forthwith. It is accusatory, unfair and wrong. Just because you have no biblical justification for your theory doesn't mean you should turn on those engaging with you.
 
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Davy

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I don't teach that. All I know is that at the rapture some are taken and some are left behind, and at the parable of the tares some are taken and others are left. At the sheep and goat judgment all are taken to the judgment, for only the sheep survive.

You really don't understand how you convict yourself with that above statement, do you?

Our Lord Jesus' answer shows the 1st one taken is NOT to Him!

And evidently, you have yet to understand that the idea of 'fowls' are sometimes used as a symbol for Satan's host (Luke 8:5 and Luke 8:12).

The Matthew 24:28 verse has the idea of a dead "carcase" being where the eagles (fowls) are gathered. Thus the eagles are put for fowls eating a dead carcase. And the Greek word for a dead carcase is in the NT manuscripts.

So the Left-Behind idea the pre-trib rapture school teaches is BACKWARDS. It's those who are left behind that represent Christ's Church.

The two women grinding, the one left keeps on working.
That represents those in Christ staying faithful, like "a chaste virgin", waiting on Christ, and continuing in His Work. That is how Jesus expects to find us when He comes.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul is clear, those in Christ get "salvation" (raptured or caught up) and get "to live together with Him (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those NOT in christ get "sudden destruction."

WHY then do some get sudden destruction while others do not? Paul tells us: some get caught up. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake caused when God resurrects the dead in Christ (found around the world). No one left behind can escape because the ground will be shaking everywhere.

What better way to say it than to say those caught in the sudden destruction are "left behind." Or could we say they are NOT "taken."

Where is this earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4?

You refuse to answer numerous questions that expose your position.
 
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summerville

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The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

IMO the Rapture is rubbish.. Who are you addressing? It has been promoted by Darby, Scofield, Samuel Untermyer, Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, the Dallas Theological Seminary and the Moody Institute.
 
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iamlamad

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The only way that you can sustain the Pretrib theory is by avoiding text after text, post after post and argument after argument. I refer you back to the many avoided posts that forbid Pretrib.

You hang onto one text - Daniel 9 - that makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, and third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the "seventy weeks" any different?

you can sustain the Pretrib theory is by avoiding text after text Let's go over these texts one by one, and see whose side the scripture is on.

You hang onto one text - Daniel 9 - that makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, and third coming.
Let's be reasonable...can we? That means use REASON? The church was not in existence in Daniel's time. And God would wait to see if Israel would Accept their Messiah first - before He turned to the Gentiles. Therefore, it is NOT REASONABLE to expect Daniel to say anything about a rapture of the church. Daniel 9 is for Jews about the end of THEIR age. It has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today.

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential? Those were the 70 years Israel spent in Babylon. They were one year after another with no gaps.

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the "seventy weeks" any different? Very simple: Because Daniel himself inserted a gap in the text between the 69 weeks and the 70th. Some see it, some don't.
 
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iamlamad

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Earthquakes are pretty common in Israel and the Levant.
IMO the Rapture is rubbish.. Who are you addressing? It has been promoted by Darby, Scofield, Samuel Untermyer, Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, the Dallas Theological Seminary and the Moody Institute.
And untold millions of believers around the world today. And why is this? Because this is what is really going to happen and God had Paul write about it.
 
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iamlamad

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Where is this earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4?

You refuse to answer numerous questions that expose your position.
I have answered every question you have asked. Perhaps I have not yet gotten to some of them.
Do you FINALLY understand that we don't form doctrine from an isolated scripture, but by comparing ALL the end times scriptures.

Have noticed in scripture that where there is a resurrection, there is an associated earthquake? This is reasonable and makes good sense: the bodies of those long dead have turned back to dust and the dust can be scattered far and wide. Some where maybe at atomic level or quark level, every particle that once made up a human being at the time of death has their "name" on it, and in a very small period of time, God will bring all those particles back together and reform that body, then change it to a resurrection body.

Stop and think: the particles of the bodies of many of those dead in Christ could be scattered "over hell's half acre" so to speak: some particles could be miles and miles from others. But in a flash, they will come flying together. This is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. If you study Matthew 27 you will find the words, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." Then when God raised the two witnesses, another earthquake.

I am convinced, when God raises the dead in Christ, that raising is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. Paul called in "sudden destruction." Earthquakes destroy and this one will come suddenly. God is giving us advance notice.

Therefore, there is no earthquake in 1 Thes., but there IS "sudden destruction" that hits at the same time those alive and in Christ are caught up.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Let's go over these texts one by one, and see whose side the scripture is on.

Of course!

Let's be reasonable...can we? That means use REASON? The church was not in existence in Daniel's time. And God would wait to see if Israel would Accept their Messiah first - before He turned to the Gentiles. Therefore, it is NOT REASONABLE to expect Daniel to say anything about a rapture of the church. Daniel 9 is for Jews about the end of THEIR age. It has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today.

What is the word for "Church" in Greek? What does it mean?

Those were the 70 years Israel spent in Babylon. They were one year after another with no gaps.

That is the way every single unitary time prediction reads in Scripture. To be otherwise would render it meaningless and confusing.

Very simple: Because Daniel himself inserted a gap in the text between the 69 weeks and the 70th. Some see it, some don't.

No he did not! He placed two important landmarks within the unitary 70 weeks, to show the unfolding of the prophecy, and identify key events along the way, one after 7 and the other after 69 weeks. Is there are gap between the 7th and 8th week? Of course not! That would be absurd. So, to suggest the same between the 69th and 70th is equally ridiculous, and totally unprecedented in Scripture. Where else do we find such folly?

When he God predicted in the same chapter "he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem," in Daniel 9:2, there was no reason to divide it up. The same with Daniel 9:21-24. The "seventy weeks" should be taken literally as linear, congruent and sequential.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Equating the two takes a lot of convoluted doctrine.
Indeed and so I would by God's grace extrapolate that some aspects of the passages about the Lord's coming relate to the church rather than to Israel or to a tribulation remnant in Matthew 24, etc.
 
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summerville

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Of course!



What is the word for "Church" in Greek? What does it mean?



That is the way every single unitary time prediction reads in Scripture. To be otherwise would render it meaningless and confusing.



No he did not! He placed two important landmarks within the unitary 70 weeks, to show the unfolding of the prophecy, and identify key events along the way, one after 7 and the other after 69 weeks. Is there are gap between the 7th and 8th week? Of course not! That would be absurd. So, to suggest the same between the 69th and 70th is equally ridiculous, and totally unprecedented in Scripture. Where else do we find such folly?

When he God predicted in the same chapter "he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem," in Daniel 9:2, there was no reason to divide it up. The same with Daniel 9:21-24. The "seventy weeks" should be taken literally as linear, congruent and sequential.

Daniel 9? There was NO Darius the Mede in history. Daniel was written during the Maccabean Revolt in 167 BC.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have answered every question you have asked. Perhaps I have not yet gotten to some of them.
Do you FINALLY understand that we don't form doctrine from an isolated scripture, but by comparing ALL the end times scriptures.

Have noticed in scripture that where there is a resurrection, there is an associated earthquake? This is reasonable and makes good sense: the bodies of those long dead have turned back to dust and the dust can be scattered far and wide. Some where maybe at atomic level or quark level, every particle that once made up a human being at the time of death has their "name" on it, and in a very small period of time, God will bring all those particles back together and reform that body, then change it to a resurrection body.

Stop and think: the particles of the bodies of many of those dead in Christ could be scattered "over hell's half acre" so to speak: some particles could be miles and miles from others. But in a flash, they will come flying together. This is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. If you study Matthew 27 you will find the words, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." Then when God raised the two witnesses, another earthquake.

I am convinced, when God raises the dead in Christ, that raising is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. Paul called in "sudden destruction." Earthquakes destroy and this one will come suddenly. God is giving us advance notice.

Therefore, there is no earthquake in 1 Thes., but there IS "sudden destruction" that hits at the same time those alive and in Christ are caught up.

· There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
· There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
· There is no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
· There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

You basically cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and Lo and behold what is produced but Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is unscriptural. This is senseless hermeneutics.
 
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