Is the Rapture biblical?

[sovereigngrace]

Bible Prophecy is quite clear as to when this general resurrection will happen; Revelation 20:11-15
When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of the Trib martyrs with Him and they will be brought back to life. Revelation 20:4
Revelation 20:5 plainly and indisputably says that the rest of the dead have to wait until the 1000 years have ended. Everyone who has ever lived will stand before God on His Great White Throne and face Judgment.

Any thoughts of a Judgment or anyone getting changed into immortality at Jesus Return, is wrong and conflicts with clear scripture.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

 

[iamlamad]

Good question jgr!

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and ‘took them all away’ [airo]; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [paralambano], and the other left [aphiemi]. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [paralambano], and the other left [aphiemi].”

Some Christians try to identify the phrase here “one shall be taken” with the wicked. They equally apply the phrase “the other shall be left” to the righteous. There are a few reasons to question that notion. Firstly, Strong’s tells us that the Greek word paralambano in this passage means “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as receive, take unto or take with. It portrays the idea of: to take as a companion. The company that is received by Christ in this passage must therefore be those that intimately love and are waiting for His return. They are taken from the destruction that is poured at His appearing and immediately return to regenerated earth. In short, one is taken to safety the other left for destruction.

This is plainly referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the Lamb. This is the exact same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambano] you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Secondly, Matthew uses a different Greek word to describe the wicked that were ‘taken’ at the time of the flood in v. 39 than that used to describe those that are ‘taken’ at Christ’s return in vv. 40-41. He employs the word airo. It simply means to take away, put away or remove. It describe those that are taken in the judgment in Noah’s day (in v. 39).

The word paralambano on the other hand relates to those that are taken or rescued from the judgment (in vv. 40-41) at Christ’s coming. This again supports the idea that those that are taken are the righteous here and that those that are left are the wicked. It would therefore seem, Matthew uses two completely different words to distinguish between two completely contrasting takings.

Thirdly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word aphiemi, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This can never refer to the righteous who God says, in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory. The words applied to either party in the original determine who and what He is speaking of.

What do you do then with the "taken" in Luke 17, where Jesus speaks of eagles gathered? Luke uses the same Greek paralombano.

From other scriptures, we know that at the rapture the saints will be "taken" or snatched up. But it seems the same thing will happen at the parable of the tares. Here with wicked will be "taken."

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus said to flee to the mountains when they saw the Abomination of Desolation as described in Daniel. They did. They fled to Pella.

Maybe they did. I was not there. But sometime in the future, when the man of sin enters the new temple, right into the Holy of Holies and declares: "I AM GOD" those who see this abomination mentioned by Jesus will flee again. History repeating itself. Perhaps they will flee to the city of Petra.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What do you do then with the "taken" in Luke 17, where Jesus speaks of eagles gathered? Luke uses the same Greek paralombano.

what passag

 

[sovereigngrace]

What do you do then with the "taken" in Luke 17, where Jesus speaks of eagles gathered? Luke uses the same Greek paralombano.

From other scriptures, we know that at the rapture the saints will be "taken" or snatched up. But it seems the same thing will happen at the parable of the tares. Here with wicked will be "taken."

What passage?

 

[iamlamad]

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

Does anyone REQUIRE a scripture (except maybe you) that states "judgment days?" Is not two scriptures shown clearly to be separated by time and each speaking of a resurrection enough?

 

[iamlamad]

What passage?

You know the passage! Luke 17:

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

 

[iamlamad]

Who are "Daniel's People?

...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That would be JEWS and Jerusalem. However, it would include all of Jacob's descendants.

 

[iamlamad]

There’s also no conversation in this thread that said that... I do believe many of those who believe in pre-trib rapture will lose faith in God when the tribulation starts because they misunderstood His Word.

Ha! Maybe some of those left behind. But the Bride of Christ will be waiting out this time in heaven. Will YOU choose to escape what is coming here, or will you choose to stay behind?

 

[iamlamad]

Where in any of this does it even hint that anyone is “left behind?” Is there anything that specifically leads you to that conclusion, or are you merely “filling in the blanks” because you don’t really what it’s saying?

Paul is clear, those in Christ get "salvation" (raptured or caught up) and get "to live together with Him (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those NOT in christ get "sudden destruction."

WHY then do some get sudden destruction while others do not? Paul tells us: some get caught up. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake caused when God resurrects the dead in Christ (found around the world). No one left behind can escape because the ground will be shaking everywhere.

What better way to say it than to say those caught in the sudden destruction are "left behind." Or could we say they are NOT "taken."

 

[Davy]

I think we all understand that vultures are not going to feast on any bodies of the church.

I hope that, but I well know there will be many Christian brethren deceived by the Antichrist because of heeding the doctrines of men instead of listening to the simplicity in God's Holy Writ.

So let's look at the FACTS...

1. the pre-trib rapture school preaches that the 1st one 'taken' in Christ's parable at the end of Luke 17, is taken by Jesus prior to the tribulation. And they teach the one left is 'left behind' on earth to suffer the great tribulation.

2. Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" as to where the 1st one 'taken' would be taken to.

3. Jesus answered, that wheresoever the dead carcase is, that is where the eagles will be gathered together.

So brethren, check me out in the Luke 17 Scripture, specifically in the latter Luke 17:30-37 verses. Then also look at what Jesus said in His Olivet discourse with giving signs of the end, in Matthew 24:28, which is a parallel Scripture to His answer in Luke 17:37.

 

[iamlamad]

Exactly, the millennium/Satan's little season correlates with the intra-Advent period. The GWT is the one and only judgment day.

This age is the millennial kingdom. It started with Christ’s "first resurrection." It will finish with the Coming of Christ and the general resurrection of the dead and general judgment. Premil duplicates everything. Two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, funerals. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about 2 resurrection days (plural) and 2 judgment days (plural), including Revelation 20. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections," 2 new heavens and new earths, 2 “last days” periods. They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming). What is next? Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation?

I have never met such "they's."
However, John is very clear on more than one resurrection to an eternal, resurrection body.
Jesus was the first a long time ago.

The resurrection and catching up of those in christ when Jesus comes the second time will be the next wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections.

The catching up of the 144,000 will be the next wave - around the midpoint of the future 70th week.

The catching up and resurrection of the Old Testament saints and 70th week martyrs - including the two witnesses - will be the final wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections that is for the righteous which will happen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Speaking of two:
There is going to be TWO MORE TIMEs the signs in the sun and moon will be seen:
First as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, the sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red - as the sign of the Day of the Lord.

Next, over 7 years later, both the sun and the moon will be dark - and so will the stars - as shown in matthew 24 and in Joel 3. It will be the sign of the coming of the Lord to Armageddon. The sign is total darkness.

In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is NOT THE SAME sign as at the 6th seal.

 

[iamlamad]

The wicked, wickedness, sin, death, corruption, decay are removed when Jesus comes to introduce perfection, glorification and eternity. It is the end!

Romans 8:19-23, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Try as you and others might, it is impossible to force TWO MORE COMINGS into one. It won't work and that theory has holes in it.

His next coming will be ONLY to the air. He will then take us back to the homes prepared.
His third coming will be to Armageddon. In your theory, the newly caught up bride goes to war! So one coming to the air, another coming He touches down: TWO different comings.

One coming will be before the future 70th week. His 3rd coming will be AFTER the week.

One coming He is seen only by those caught up into the clouds. His 3rd coming will be seen by all: as lightning flashing across a dark sky. He will be very visible to those at Armageddon.

One coming, His destination is to the air - then back to heaven. His 3rd coming is to Armageddon and to stay on earth as the Lord of the Millennial reign.

 

[iamlamad]

I hope that, but I well know there will be many Christian brethren deceived by the Antichrist because of heeding the doctrines of men instead of listening to the simplicity in God's Holy Writ.

So let's look at the FACTS...

1. the pre-trib rapture school preaches that the 1st one 'taken' in Christ's parable at the end of Luke 17, is taken by Jesus prior to the tribulation. And they teach the one left is 'left behind' on earth to suffer the great tribulation.

2. Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" as to where the 1st one 'taken' would be taken to.

3. Jesus answered, that wheresoever the dead carcase is, that is where the eagles will be gathered together.

So brethren, check me out in the Luke 17 Scripture, specifically in the latter Luke 17:30-37 verses. Then also look at what Jesus said in His Olivet discourse with giving signs of the end, in Matthew 24:28, which is a parallel Scripture to His answer in Luke 17:37.

I don't teach that. All I know is that at the rapture some are taken and some are left behind, and at the parable of the tares some are taken and others are left. At the sheep and goat judgment all are taken to the judgment, for only the sheep survive.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Try as you and others might, it is impossible to force TWO MORE COMINGS into one. It won't work and that theory has holes in it.

His next coming will be ONLY to the air. He will then take us back to the homes prepared.
His third coming will be to Armageddon. In your theory, the newly caught up bride goes to war! So one coming to the air, another coming He touches down: TWO different comings.

One coming will be before the future 70th week. His 3rd coming will be AFTER the week.

One coming He is seen only by those caught up into the clouds. His 3rd coming will be seen by all: as lightning flashing across a dark sky. He will be very visible to those at Armageddon.

One coming, His destination is to the air - then back to heaven. His 3rd coming is to Armageddon and to stay on earth as the Lord of the Millennial reign.

The only way that you can sustain the Pretrib theory is by avoiding text after text, post after post and argument after argument. I refer you back to the many avoided posts that forbid Pretrib.

You hang onto one text - Daniel 9 - that makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, and third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the "seventy weeks" any different?

 

[jgr]

Good question jgr!

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and ‘took them all away’ [airo]; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [paralambano], and the other left [aphiemi]. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [paralambano], and the other left [aphiemi].”

Some Christians try to identify the phrase here “one shall be taken” with the wicked. They equally apply the phrase “the other shall be left” to the righteous. There are a few reasons to question that notion. Firstly, Strong’s tells us that the Greek word paralambano in this passage means “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as receive, take unto or take with. It portrays the idea of: to take as a companion. The company that is received by Christ in this passage must therefore be those that intimately love and are waiting for His return. They are taken from the destruction that is poured at His appearing and immediately return to regenerated earth. In short, one is taken to safety the other left for destruction.

This is plainly referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the Lamb. This is the exact same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambano] you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Secondly, Matthew uses a different Greek word to describe the wicked that were ‘taken’ at the time of the flood in v. 39 than that used to describe those that are ‘taken’ at Christ’s return in vv. 40-41. He employs the word airo. It simply means to take away, put away or remove. It describe those that are taken in the judgment in Noah’s day (in v. 39).

The word paralambano on the other hand relates to those that are taken or rescued from the judgment (in vv. 40-41) at Christ’s coming. This again supports the idea that those that are taken are the righteous here and that those that are left are the wicked. It would therefore seem, Matthew uses two completely different words to distinguish between two completely contrasting takings.

Thirdly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word aphiemi, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This can never refer to the righteous who God says, in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory. The words applied to either party in the original determine who and what He is speaking of.

Thanks sovereigngrace; that is a defensible explanation, with which I concur.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have never met such "they's."
However, John is very clear on more than one resurrection to an eternal, resurrection body.
Jesus was the first a long time ago.

The resurrection and catching up of those in christ when Jesus comes the second time will be the next wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections.

The catching up of the 144,000 will be the next wave - around the midpoint of the future 70th week.

The catching up and resurrection of the Old Testament saints and 70th week martyrs - including the two witnesses - will be the final wave of the first or primary or chief of resurrections that is for the righteous which will happen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Speaking of two:
There is going to be TWO MORE TIMEs the signs in the sun and moon will be seen:
First as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, the sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red - as the sign of the Day of the Lord.

Next, over 7 years later, both the sun and the moon will be dark - and so will the stars - as shown in matthew 24 and in Joel 3. It will be the sign of the coming of the Lord to Armageddon. The sign is total darkness.

In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is NOT THE SAME sign as at the 6th seal.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thanks sovereigngrace; that is a defensible explanation, with which I concur.

Glad to help!

 

[summerville]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That would be JEWS and Jerusalem. However, it would include all of Jacob's descendants.

The Gentiles trampled Jerusalem for 42 months.. They were Galileans, Edumeans and Syrians.

Take a closer look at WHO the Gentiles are.

700 years before Jesus Samarian Jews were removed to Assyria and replaced by 4 Arab tribes..

This is part of the reason the Judeans despised their northern neighbors and considered them "half breeds". Further, the Galileans were considered wild zealots..

The Galileans - About-Jesus.org
www.about-jesus.org/galileans.htm
Galileans. During the time of Jesus about 2000 years ago, in the land of Israel, there were a variety of political parties, factions and movements, including one called the Galileans. The Galileans were the political extreme-right fanatics of their day. The group arose in northern Israel, headed by a man named Judas of Galilee, or Judas the Galilean,...

 

[sovereigngrace]

Try as you and others might, it is impossible to force TWO MORE COMINGS into one. It won't work and that theory has holes in it.

His next coming will be ONLY to the air. He will then take us back to the homes prepared.
His third coming will be to Armageddon. In your theory, the newly caught up bride goes to war! So one coming to the air, another coming He touches down: TWO different comings.

One coming will be before the future 70th week. His 3rd coming will be AFTER the week.

One coming He is seen only by those caught up into the clouds. His 3rd coming will be seen by all: as lightning flashing across a dark sky. He will be very visible to those at Armageddon.

One coming, His destination is to the air - then back to heaven. His 3rd coming is to Armageddon and to stay on earth as the Lord of the Millennial reign.

There are no two comings in Scripture, as your failure to prove such exemplifies. There ares no two comings in history. The Jesuits invented that 200 years ago to bring confusion amongst Protestants.