Question: What are the conditions for salvation?

[Oldmantook]

Only denseness would stop there and ignore what ELSE I said; that the 1st Century Greek speakers ALSO used the Greek word for "person".

Big deal. You ignore what Jesus said and He is the only person that counts. Not the 1st century Greeks and certainly not the Air Force. That is asinine.

And I pointed out about CONTEXT. Sure, when soul and body are mentioned together, it is obvious to any clear thinking person that a distinction is being made.

But what you HAVEN'T shown yet is that the Greek word cannot mean "person". And it does.

In the context of DEATH - which happens to be the subject here - death of the soul means spiritual death.

That is how the Greeks used the word, when "body" wasn't included.

Doesn't matter what the Greeks and you believe. Jesus distinguished between the body and soul when he referred to destroying both in hell.

You make a lot of statements but don't give any support from Scripture.

I gave you Matt 10:28 but you ignore Jesus' words to cling on dearly to your doctrine.

Oh, just stop this silliness. What Jesus said was a totally different context than James 5:19,20.
You are the one who vainly attempted to explain that soul and person are the same thing when speaking about sin and death.

Why do you reject or deny that God's discipline CAN and DOES include physical death?

Aren't you aware of 1 Cor 11:30? Or 1 Cor 5:5?

Not in the context that we are talking about. THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. One not only dies physically but one also dies spiritually. You acknowledge the former but abysmally fail to acknowledge that latter. I acknowledge both.
Are you aware of 1 Cor 6:9-11. Those who continue to commit sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.

d I never said such a thing. That's only your very straw man excuse.

You claimed the soul and person are the same. Keep back peddling!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Big deal. You ignore what Jesus said and He is the only person that counts.

You are clueless as to what I posted.

Not the 1st century Greeks and certainly not the Air Force. That is asinine.

Are you just ignoring what I said? The AF uses the word "soul" the SAME WAY that 1st Century Greek speakers used the word. How difficult is it to understand this very simple idea? To Greek speakers, "soul" meant "person".

But I know how much this challenges your understanding of James 5:19,20 and requires a total re-think about a lot of things, huh. So, rather than do that, you simply focus on your phony obsession with the AF.

In the context of DEATH - which happens to be the subject here - death of the soul means spiritual death.

Not to a 1st Century Greek speaker. In fact, I gave you biblical examples of God's discipline that leads to physical death. I suspect you failed to look up any of the references.

Doesn't matter what the Greeks and you believe.

Well, there you go. Jesus and His disciples spoke Greek. But don't bother believing what they believe and SAID.

Jesus distinguished between the body and soul when he referred to destroying both in hell.

I explained that verse.

I gave you Matt 10:28 but you ignore Jesus' words to cling on dearly to your doctrine.

Yeah, that's the verse. And I explained what Jesus meant there. And it wasn't about fellowship, as I acknowledged. You need to pay better attention if you want to keep up.

Not in the context that we are talking about. THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.

OK, you're all over the map. Which context now? We've been dealing with 3 so far.

One not only dies physically but one also dies spiritually.

OK, let's take a rest stop. What does this apply to? Are you trying to say (but failing) that an act of sin will result in spiritual death?

You acknowledge the former but abysmally fail to acknowledge that latter. I acknowledge both.

Again, please try much harder to be more clear.

Are you aware of 1 Cor 6:9-11. Those who continue to commit sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes, and I understand what Paul meant, which I suspect you don't. Are you aware that this passage is in parallel with 2 other passages? Are you aware of which of the 3 state the issue of inheriting the kingdom one way and which another way?

You claimed the soul and person are the same. Keep back peddling!

The Greek word in James 5:20 for "soul" includes the "person".

From bible hub.com-

Strong's Concordance
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies
5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity(unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

You can read it and weep, or take it or leave it. Your choice.

But you've shown how little you know about some things.

I suggest you look up the citations I gave you about God's discipline that leads to physical death of the PERSON. It's illuminating.

 

[Oldmantook]

You are clueless as to what I posted.


Are you just ignoring what I said? The AF uses the word "soul" the SAME WAY that 1st Century Greek speakers used the word. How difficult is it to understand this very simple idea? To Greek speakers, "soul" meant "person".

But I know how much this challenges your understanding of James 5:19,20 and requires a total re-think about a lot of things, huh. So, rather than do that, you simply focus on your phony obsession with the AF.


Not to a 1st Century Greek speaker. In fact, I gave you biblical examples of God's discipline that leads to physical death. I suspect you failed to look up any of the references.


Well, there you go. Jesus and His disciples spoke Greek. But don't bother believing what they believe and SAID.


I explained that verse.


Yeah, that's the verse. And I explained what Jesus meant there. And it wasn't about fellowship, as I acknowledged. You need to pay better attention if you want to keep up.


OK, you're all over the map. Which context now? We've been dealing with 3 so far.


OK, let's take a rest stop. What does this apply to? Are you trying to say (but failing) that an act of sin will result in spiritual death?


Again, please try much harder to be more clear.


Yes, and I understand what Paul meant, which I suspect you don't. Are you aware that this passage is in parallel with 2 other passages? Are you aware of which of the 3 state the issue of inheriting the kingdom one way and which another way?


The Greek word in James 5:20 for "soul" includes the "person".

From bible hub.com-

Strong's Concordance
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies
5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity(unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

You can read it and weep, or take it or leave it. Your choice.

But you've shown how little you know about some things.

I suggest you look up the citations I gave you about God's discipline that leads to physical death of the PERSON. It's illuminating.

Gotten boring which is why I haven't replied lately. Nonetheless, keep your "illumination" to yourself lest you infect others with your beliefs. A believer can certainly die physically due to God's discipline however as usual with your weak argumentation you have proposed an either-or fallacy where you exclude the other possibility which is spiritual death.
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH which includes BOTH physical and spiritual death. For you to acknowledge the former but ignore the later is ludicrous but that's your problem.

Jesus distinguished between the BODY and the SOUL in Matt 10:28. The body is finite and therefore can be killed by man in the first half of that verse. In the second half of the verse, only God can kill both the body and the soul. Man cannot kill the soul because unlike the body, the soul is not finite but is eternal. So employing Jesus' own definition of what the soul is, the death of the soul in James 5:19-20 refers to SPIRITUAL death - not physical death. But feel free to ignore Jesus' definition in preference for your own!

Lastly, since you believe you're saved no matter what. Go right ahead and accept the mark of the beast and see if your view holds up why don't you? Care to take that risk?? If you protest by claiming that believers won't be around during that time then Rev 14:12 indicates otherwise: This calls for the endurance of the saints, who keep God’s commandments and keep faith with Jesus. The saints are around during that time which is why this verse calls upon them to endure by keeping God's commands and their faith instead of taking the mark. If you happen to be around during that time, I suggest you heed the warning of Rev 14:9-12. Don't say you weren't warned! Time for me to jump off this merry-go-round.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gotten boring which is why I haven't replied lately. Nonetheless, keep your "illumination" to yourself lest you infect others with your beliefs.

Thanks for your opinion.

A believer can certainly die physically due to God's discipline however as usual with your weak argumentation you have proposed an either-or fallacy where you exclude the other possibility which is spiritual death.

So, just to be clear here, you seem to be saying that a believer can die spiritually from certain behaviors. Is that correct?

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH which includes BOTH physical and spiritual death. For you to acknowledge the former but ignore the later is ludicrous but that's your problem.

OK, this seems rather clear. Those believers who sin will die spiritually.

So, now your challenge is to explain HOW a believer, who has been given the gift of ETERNAL life, can DIE again. And please cite actual verses that tell us or warn us that the gift of ETERNAL LIFE can DIE.

This oughta be good.

Jesus distinguished between the BODY and the SOUL in Matt 10:28. The body is finite and therefore can be killed by man in the first half of that verse. In the second half of the verse, only God can kill both the body and the soul. Man cannot kill the soul because unlike the body, the soul is not finite but is eternal. So employing Jesus' own definition of what the soul is, the death of the soul in James 5:19-20 refers to SPIRITUAL death - not physical death. But feel free to ignore Jesus' definition in preference for your own!

Your "math" doesn't add up. And your "logic" is quite fuzzy.

The phrase in your comment (only God can kill both the body and the soul) is easily explained. All who "have not believed" = John 3:8 and 2 Thess 2:12) will be condemned. That's what these 2 verses say. And we know what that means. It means being "cast into the lake of fire" per Rev 20:15. And Revelation refers to the lake of fire as the "second death". That's where unbelieving souls "die". But they remain conscious for eternity. So that's what is meant by "death of a soul".

So I've just refuted your unbiblical notion that a believer can die spiritually. You have zero basis from Scripture for such wrong thinking.

Lastly, since you believe you're saved no matter what. Go right ahead and accept the mark of the beast and see if your view holds up why don't you?

Oh, this is a good one. Does the Bible tell us that any believers are going to take the mark? No. That is pure presumption.

When does the mark occur? In the last half of the Tribulation. I am convinced that any unfaithful/disobedient believers will suffer God's discipline of physical death before the mark is given.

What I absolutely DO know for sure is what Jesus said: those He gives eternal life (that would be believers) shall never perish.

But it seems you just don't believe what Jesus said.

Care to take that risk??

There is no such risk.

If you protest by claiming that believers won't be around during that time then Rev 14:12 indicates otherwise: This calls for the endurance of the saints, who keep God’s commandments and keep faith with Jesus. The saints are around during that time which is why this verse calls upon them to endure by keeping God's commands and their faith instead of taking the mark.

Actually, the so-called "rapture" occurs at the end of the Tribulation. So says 2 Thess 2:1. Plainly. So I don't "protest" as you assumed.

If you happen to be around during that time, I suggest you heed the warning of Rev 14:9-12. Don't say you weren't warned! Time for me to jump off this merry-go-round.

Rev 14:9-12
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

If believers do take the mark, then what Jesus said is a LIE. If that's what you want to promulgate, just know this: you are in direct opposition to the Savior.

Yes, this discussion has been a merry-go-round. It is time to jump.

Dealing with people who directly oppose the words of the Savior is quite depressing.