The Seed of Abraham

[Charlie24]

According to the NT, the promises (notice promises is a plural word) to Abraham were not the Jews (plural offspring), but to a singular Jew (Jesus Christ).

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Thus anyone looking outside of Christ for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is incorrect.

Who is Jesus? Is He not a man and God? Is He not a Jew, of the physical linage of Abraham.

The Jews will have their promises fulfilled in Christ on the basis that Jesus is a physical Jew. It is His to give in keeping the promise made to Abraham.

 

[Charlie24]

There’s no scripture in that post to support any of your arguments. How am I suppose to know your interpretation is correct, out of the hundreds of different ones, if you don’t provide any NT support?

You're not capable of reading the Bible for proof?

Compare the measurements of Ezekiel's temple with John's temple.

The measurements and description prove they are two different temples.

There can be no mistake about it!

 

[Charlie24]

There’s no scripture in that post to support any of your arguments. How am I suppose to know your interpretation is correct, out of the hundreds of different ones, if you don’t provide any NT support?

The argument of the reformed is Rev. 21:22,

"And is saw no temple therein, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple in it."

This is speaking of the New Jerusalem. My comparison is with the city of New Jerusalem compared to the measurements of Ezekiel's temple and the city in previous posts.

Back to the Temple, the reformed say there is no temple per Rev. 21:12. That is not true.

Revelation 3:12, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

The New Jerusalem will have a temple but not serving the same purpose as the OT temple or Ezekiel's temple.

In New Jerusalem God the Father is now dwelling with man. Before the Cross, a temple on earth was necessary because God could not dwell with man at that time because of sin.

The temple in New Jerusalem is apparent from Rev. 3:12 but will not serve the same purpose. I believe this is why John did not recognize the temple, God is now with man.

But the reformed claim that this temple is not literal, as they claim Ezekiel's temple is not literal. This is how I have seen the heart of the argument for several years.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I love you and admire your stamina in your belief. I wish we all could put forth the faith that you demonstrate.

But my friend you have been led astray on the plan of our God from the foundation of the world.

Our God chose Abraham to become the father of a peculiar people we know today as Israel. He has watched over them and kept them through thick and thin. He has gathered them into their original land before our very eyes and made them a nation as He said thousands of years ago that He would do it.

He has told us through Paul that He would save "all of Israel" and they will yet be His glory. Zechariah tells us how God will save Israel, the mourning that will take place in the land of Israel, "they will mourn as the loss of an only child, when they see the One they have pierced."

God tells us "I will yet choose Israel." He said that the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem and "take hold of the skirt of a Jew, and say, we will go with you to worship the Lord, for we have heard that God is with you."

It is all coming to full circle and we are closer than we think. The timeline for all things that take place in this world is centered around bringing the Jews back to God.

During this time (the age of Grace) God is bringing in the Gentiles, at the same time He is fulfilling His promise to Abraham for the Jews.

The NT reveals Jesus and believers as Israel. The unbelievers are not. Study Paul on the matter and then re-read Romans 11. All Israel will be saved = all gentile and Jewish believers that the Bible identifies as Israel. Only believers are Biblical Israel.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world = no national restoration.

Times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. We preach to them until then.

Today's Jews are technically gentiles trodding down Jerusalem since Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision in the bible made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

There’s no scripture in that post to support any of your arguments. How am I suppose to know your interpretation is correct, out of the hundreds of different ones, if you don’t provide any NT support?

Let me give you just one reason of many reasons why we believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ in a literal future temple.

When the tabernacle was built in the wilderness we read in Exod. 30:24, that the "glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle."

When Solomon's temple was built we read in 1Kings 8:11 that the "glory of Jehovah filled the house of Jehovah."

There is no more mention of "the glory of the Lord filling a temple" until Ezekiel's vision. Ezek. 43:5

The next time that the "glory of the Lord appears" is when Christ appeared on this earth. He brought with Him in His death and resurrection justification by faith. During this age of Grace there is no longer a need for God to dwell in a temple, we are now the temple of God by way of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart of the believer.

But this age of Grace will end, and begin the Kingdom Age. This will be the 1000 year reign of Christ.

God the Father cannot dwell in the presence of sin. Psalm 5:4. That's why He would dwell in Spirit in the Holy of Holy's in the temple.

But the Man Jesus Christ can and did dwell in the presence of sin. He is both Man and God.

The man who met Ezekiel at the gate in his vision was described as having the appearance of brass, Ezek. 40:3.

The man described by Daniel in Dan. 10:6 also has an appearance of brass.

The man described by John in Rev. 1:15 also has an appearance of brass.

The man who met Ezekiel at the gate was none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

As the Man (Jesus) stood beside Ezekiel, 43:6, he heard a voice coming out of the temple saying, "Son of man, the place of my Throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the Children of Israel for ever..."

The soles of His feet, the physical soles of the Man Jesus will sit on the Throne of this temple in the midst of Israel.

This will be the Kingdom Age, Christ will dwell in person, in the temple. It will no longer be by Spirit.

 

[Charlie24]

The NT reveals Jesus and believers as Israel. The unbelievers are not. Study Paul on the matter and then re-read Romans 11. All Israel will be saved = all gentile and Jewish believers that the Bible identifies as Israel. Only believers are Biblical Israel.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world = no national restoration.

Times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. We preach to them until then.

Today's Jews are technically gentiles trodding down Jerusalem since Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision in the bible made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel.

Dave let's look at that scripture a little closer. John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus said, "but NOW is my kingdom not from hence."

Do you think that maybe later it will be?

 

[Dave L]

Dave let's look at that scripture a little closer. John 18:36

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus said, "but NOW is my kingdom not from hence."

Do you think that maybe later it will be?

Not if you consider the rest of his teaching on the kingdom. Don't seek a kingdom of sight. Seek the kingdom of faith. It's eternal, the other isn't.

 

[Charlie24]

Not if you consider the rest of his teaching on the kingdom. Don't seek a kingdom of sight. Seek the kingdom of faith. It's eternal, the other isn't.

IN THIS AGE OF GRACE, DAVE!

We are living in the times of the Church, the age of Grace.

Also called the times of the Gentiles. This time has an end.

When the Lord calls His church home, this age is over.

Then will be the Kingdom Age when Christ will rule.

Rev. 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Dave L]

IN THIS AGE OF GRACE, DAVE!

We are living in the times of the Church, the age of Grace.

Also called the times of the Gentiles. This time has an end.

When the Lord calls His church home, this age is over.

Then will be the Kingdom Age when Christ will rule.

Rev. 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You are projecting Dispensationalism (a theory) over scripture and making the bible say what the theory says (adding to and rearranging God's word). Instead of what Scripture really says. All I can do is refute Dispensationalism with scripture in this matter.

 

[Charlie24]

You are projecting Dispensationalism (a theory) over scripture and making the bible say what the theory says (adding to and rearranging God's word). Instead of what Scripture really says. All I can do is refute Dispensationalism with scripture in this matter.

Don't look at it as dispensationalism.

Look at it as the Word of God.

There will be a 1000 year reign and you can't deny it!

I just showed it to you.

Of course we will disagree on the timing of everything.

But you can't deny a 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Don't look at it as dispensationalism.

Look at it as the Word of God.

There will be a 1000 year reign and you can't deny it!

I just showed it to you.

Of course we will disagree on the timing of everything.

But you can't deny a 1000 year reign of Christ.

You should look at it as Dispensationalism and study its Jesuit origins as a tool the Catholics used to deceive the protestants. And it worked very well for their advantage.

 

[Charlie24]

You should look at it as Dispensationalism and study its Jesuit origins as a tool the Catholics used to deceive the protestants. And it worked very well for their advantage.

I'm not a dispensationalist, even though you will say that I am.

I just follow the Word of God where it leads me.

Dispensationalsim has some flaws, but near as many a RT.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not a dispensationalist, even though you will say that I am.

I just follow the Word of God where it leads me.

Dispensationalsim has some flaws, but near as many a RT.

Everybody on the planet says "I just follow the Word of God where it leads me." Or similar.

 

[Charlie24]

Everybody on the planet says "I just follow the Word of God where it leads me." Or similar.

Yea, I guess I shouldn't have said that. You're right about that.

I just believe as does the hermeneutics of dispensationalism that scripture should be taken literally unless it's obvious it shouldn't be.

 

[thomas_t]

no national restoration

Scripture proves you wrong:
Romans 11:26.

that the Bible identifies as Israel.

Israel is the entity that the Bible defines as Israel. Very simple here. No need to redefine Israel here, Dave.

Times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. We preach to them until then.

unless you are a Jew, you're a gentile. Gentile believer.

The NT reveals Jesus and believers as Israel. The unbelievers are not. Study Paul on the matter and then re-read Romans 11.
[...]

Today's Jews are technically gentiles

You write as if Jews didn't belong to Israel. They do.
Jews are Jews. Even today. Very simple. No need to redefine the Jew.

Modern-day Israel is not biblical Israel.

That's a direct claim. But you didn't back it up!

Israel is Israel.

Thomas

 

[Dave L]

Scripture proves you wrong:
Romans 11:26.

Israel is the entity that the Bible defines as Israel. Very simple here. No need to redefine Israel here, Dave.

unless you are a Jew, you're a gentile. Gentile believer.

You write as if Jews didn't belong to Israel. They do.
Jews are Jews. Even today. Very simple. No need to redefine the Jew.


That's a direct claim. But you didn't back it up!

Israel is Israel.

Thomas

Jesus removed unbelieving Israel from Israel in Romans 11. Only by faith will any become reattached.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[thomas_t]

Jesus removed unbelieving Israel from Israel in Romans 11. Only by faith will any become reattached.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

Romans 11 is the olive. But you didn't show that the olive is Israel as you say it is.
In my opinion it's just a flaw made by the proponents of replacement theology (I mean those saying that the church has replaced Israel).
Replacement theology is conjecture.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 11 is the olive. But you didn't show that the olive is Israel as you say it is.
In my opinion it's just a flaw made by the proponents of replacement theology (I mean those saying that the church has replaced Israel).
Replacement theology is conjecture.

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[claninja]

Who is Jesus? Is He not a man and God? Is He not a Jew, of the physical linage of Abraham

Correct, thus the promise to Abraham were to Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.

The Jews will have their promises fulfilled in Christ on the basis that Jesus is a physical Jew. It is His to give in keeping the promise made to Abraham.

Don't forget the gentiles.

Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

 

[claninja]

You're not capable of reading the Bible for proof?

If I were capable of reading where the Bible explicitly and clearly mentions a literal temple building during a literal earthly 1,000 year reign, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I have yet been able to find it in my Bible. So please provide the verse that clearly and explicitly mentions a literal temple building during a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, so that I can know that you are interpreting scripture correctly.

Compare the measurements of Ezekiel's temple with John's temple.

The measurements and description prove they are two different temples.

There can be no mistake about it!

Incorrect. Different measurements don't prove they are about different subjects The measurement of the original tabernacle was not the exact same as the one in heaven, and yet the Bible declares it was only a "copy". The original tabernacle was simply a shadow pointing to the true literal spiritual reality under Christ and the new covenant.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God.

So Just because the Ezekiel temple has different measurements than the New Jerusalem, does not mean it is different. Thus the Ezekiel temple, albeit different in size than the New Jerusalem, was a shadow of new Jerusalem, just like the original tabernacle, albeit a different size than the true one in heaven, was "copy" of the heavenly one.

However, if they are in fact different buildings, then please answer:

Do you believe God will dwell in a literal Ezekiel temple forever?

Ezekiel 47:3 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

Or does God dwell in the New Jerusalem forever?