Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

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The ceremonial/sacrificial laws are commonly referred to as the mosaic laws .... they were nailed to the cross

Where did YHWH break out his his law into a "ceremonial category." I've found no such scripture. Where does scripture say that this, yet undefined, "ceremonial law" was nailed to the cross?

YHWH's law is YHWH's law, Period. You can't pick and choose which ones you want to obey....well....at least without consequences. Yahshua said that nothing will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass. He didn't qualify that with, "except undefined "ceremonial" law."
 
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It was Jesus on Mt. Sinai who gave the laws.

Exodus 31
CLV(i) 1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 2 See! I call by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur of the stock of Judah. 3 I shall fill him with the spirit of Elohim, with wisdom and with understanding and with knowledge, in all work, 4 to design designs, to make them in gold, in silver and in copper, 5 and as a lapidary for filling and as an artificer in wood for making all kind of work. 6 And I, behold, I give him Aholiab son of Ahisamach of the stock of Dan. In the heart of all the wise of heart I have given wisdom, that they will make all that I have instructed you. 7 the tent of appointment and the coffer for the testimony with the propitiatory shelter which shall be on it and all the furnishings of the tent, 8 the table with its furnishings, the pure lampstand with all its furnishings and the altar of incense, 9 the altar of ascent offering with all its furnishings, the laver and its post;" 10 also the colored garments and the holy garments for Aaron, the priest, and the garments of his sons to serve as priests;" 11 then the anointing oil and the incense of spices for the holy place; according to all that I have instructed you shall they do. 12 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 13 Now you, speak to the sons of Israel saying, Surely, My sabbaths shall you keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations to know that I, Yahweh, am hallowing you. 14 Hence you will keep the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Profaners of it shall be put to death, yea death, for if anyone is doing work in it, that soul will be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, and on the seventh day is a sabbath of cessation, holy to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the sabbath day shall be put to death, yea death. 16 Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations. 17 Between Me and the sons of Israel it shall be a sign for the eon, for in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and was refreshed. 18 He gave to Moses, as He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of Elohim.
 
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Kenobi

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Exodus 31
CLV(i) 1 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 2 See! I call by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur of the stock of Judah. 3 I shall fill him with the spirit of Elohim, with wisdom and with understanding and with knowledge, in all work, 4 to design designs, to make them in gold, in silver and in copper, 5 and as a lapidary for filling and as an artificer in wood for making all kind of work. 6 And I, behold, I give him Aholiab son of Ahisamach of the stock of Dan. In the heart of all the wise of heart I have given wisdom, that they will make all that I have instructed you. 7 the tent of appointment and the coffer for the testimony with the propitiatory shelter which shall be on it and all the furnishings of the tent, 8 the table with its furnishings, the pure lampstand with all its furnishings and the altar of incense, 9 the altar of ascent offering with all its furnishings, the laver and its post;" 10 also the colored garments and the holy garments for Aaron, the priest, and the garments of his sons to serve as priests;" 11 then the anointing oil and the incense of spices for the holy place; according to all that I have instructed you shall they do. 12 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. 13 Now you, speak to the sons of Israel saying, Surely, My sabbaths shall you keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations to know that I, Yahweh, am hallowing you. 14 Hence you will keep the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Profaners of it shall be put to death, yea death, for if anyone is doing work in it, that soul will be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, and on the seventh day is a sabbath of cessation, holy to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the sabbath day shall be put to death, yea death. 16 Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations. 17 Between Me and the sons of Israel it shall be a sign for the eon, for in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and was refreshed. 18 He gave to Moses, as He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of Elohim.

When Jesus says "I AM", he is saying that he is the voice from the burning bush. The Jews would have understood the reference. That's why the Jews wanted to stone him for saying it...

"Tell them I AM has sent you." is what Jesus told Moses.

"I AM" is bad English, bad Hebrew, and bad Greek. It is not something we could ever fully comprehend in our current state. Jesus and the Father are separate. And one. It doesn't make sense in the material world. But God lives in an immaterial world.

When you recognize there are different distinct persons of God, we could easily become polytheistic, but it's more complicated than that. So God said there is only one God.

The "face of God" is the Messiah. Jacob named the place Peniel, because he saw the face of God

Yet Jesus says no one has seen the Father...
 
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HARK!

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When Jesus says "I AM", he is saying that he is the voice from the burning bush. The Jews would have understood the reference. That's why the Jews wanted to stone him for saying it...

"Tell them I AM has sent you." is what Jesus told Moses.

That's quite a speculative stretch on your part. Scripture does not reveal the reason that they picked up stones.

Here is what scripture does say:


(CLV) Ex 3:14
Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just was I am coming to be. And He |said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be, He has sent me to you.

In the very next verse:

(CLV) Ex 3:15
And Elohim said further to Moses: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac and the Elohim of Jacob, He has sent me to you. This is My Name for the eon, And this the Remembrance of Me for generation after generation.


"I AM" is bad English, bad Hebrew, and bad Greek. It is not something we could ever fully comprehend in our current state. Jesus and the Father are separate. And one. It doesn't make sense in the material world. But God lives in an immaterial world.

I can easily make sense of this. It's really not complicated at all. YHWH says that a husband and wife are one. Does this make sense to you? That covenant is between the man, the woman, and YHWH, in a kadosh union. They are joined as one. That doesn't mean that the wife is the husband. Do you see?

When you recognize there are different distinct persons of God, we could easily become polytheistic, but it's more complicated than that. So God said there is only one God.

I try not claim to speak for YHWH, as to why he says what he says. I do let scripture speak for itself.

(CLV) Ro 15:6
that, with one accord, with one mouth, you may be glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


(CLV) Jn 17:3
Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.


(CLV) 1Co 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(CLV) 1Co 8:6
nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.

(CLV) 1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,


(CLV) 1Pt 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,

(CLV) Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,

(CLV) 1Co 15:24
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

The "face of God" is the Messiah. Jacob named the place Peniel, because he saw the face of God

Yet Jesus says no one has seen the Father...

We were talking about Moses. Remember? Let's not get sidetracked.

Again, it's clear that that Moses saw YHWH. I don't pretend to understand everything in the Bible; but this is clear:


(CLV) Ex 33:21
Then Yahweh said: Behold! There is a place by Me, and you will station yourself on the rock.

(CLV) Ex 33:22
So it will come to be when My glory passes by that I will place you in a fissure of the rock. And I will overshadow on you with My palm until I pass by.

(CLV) Ex 33:23
Then I will take away My palm, and you will see My back, yet My face shall not appear.
 
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lsume

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Another commonly misinterpreted verse from Paul.

In just a few verses before this in Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul defined The Law of Righteousness. It might sound like a good thing. It's not. Paul presents at least 8 types of law in his letter to the Romans.

I did a study on Romans 9 here:Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9

This is where Paul defines The Law of righteousness.


Continued from: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8

Romans 9 (CLV)

1 The truth am I telling in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifying together with me in holy spirit, 2 2 That my sorrow is great, and unintermittent pain is in my heart -" 3 for I myself wished to be anathema from Christ - for my brethren, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, whose is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the legislation and the divine service and the promises;" 5 whose are the fathers, and out of whom is the Christ according to the flesh, Who is over all, God be blessed for the eons. Amen!" 6 Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;" 7 neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called." 8 That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed." 9 For the word of the promise is this: At "this seasonI shall come "and there will be for Sarah a son." 10 Yet, not only so, but Rebecca also is having her bed of one, Isaac, our father." 11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling, 12 it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior, 13 According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate." 14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!" 15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying." 16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." 17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth." 18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening." 19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention? 20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus? 21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? 22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, 23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -" 24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also." 25 As He is saying in Hosea also: I shall be calling those who are not My people "My people,And she who is not beloved "Beloved, 26 And it shall be, in the place where it was declared to them, 'Not My people are you,'There "they shall be called 'sons of the living God.'" 27 Now Isaiah is crying over Israel, If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue shall be saved, 28 for "a conclusive and concise accounting the Lord will be doing on the earth." 29 And according as Isaiah declared before, "Except the Lord of hosts conserved us a seed, As Sodom would we become, And to Gomorrah would we be likened."

Paul demonstrates that just as Abraham didn't recieve YHWH's favor through bloodline; but through faith; so it is today, for all who are called to hear and, in faith, submit to his commands.

The Covenant is extended to all now; as it has be been since Abraham.


30 What, then, shall we be declaring? That the nations who are not pursuing righteousness overtook righteousness, yet a righteousness which is out of faith."

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

The Law of Faith
God's Law (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life



31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

Paul has added another law, to this letter, in this chapter:

The Law of Righteousness


Letting one's pride withdraw the honor due to YHWH. It's not unlike elevating one's self above the Father.

The Law of Righteousness
The Law of Sin and Death

It should be pointed out here that the stumbling stone isn't the keeping of the Torah. The righteous keep the law (Torah); but they do it through faith in YHWH. The stumbling block is believing that it is through your power, not YHWH's; that your salvation comes from your own works (The Law of Righteousness) . Yahshua gave all the glory to YHWH. It was YHWH working through him that performed the miracles. Yahshua set the example for us.





Hallelu YAH! Hallelu Yahshua!




Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)



Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 10
You might take notice in that I did not offer up an interpretation. You quickly took a defensive position. My prayer is that you read my reply again. Maybe someone else offered an interpretation of the verses.
 
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Kenobi

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That's quite a speculative stretch on your part. Scripture does not reveal the reason that they picked up stones.

33 The Jews answered Him, "For an ideal act we are not stoning you, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, are making yourself God."

I pulled from your version, it's not really speculation...

The union of man and woman is a picture of our union with God. Not really a good picture for the Trinity.

I'd be interested to see how your version translated who rose Jesus from the dead. I'll have to look it up later, but for transparency, maybe you can get a head start on me.

Romans 6:4
John 10:18
Romans 8:11

I guess also John 1:1. I know Jehovah witnesses translate it like Jesus is a god, little g. (Even though the Greek word is theos, theos in both places)
 
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HARK!

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You might take notice in that I did not offer up an interpretation.

I went back and read it again; and when I did, I recalled that at the time of my response; that you hadn't offered up an interpretation. I apologize if you were offended by my taking the opportunity to use your post, to bring clarity to that verse.

Shalom
 
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HARK!

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33 The Jews answered Him, "For an ideal act we are not stoning you, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, are making yourself God."

I pulled from your version, it's not really speculation...

That was a false accusation. I pray that you aren't sustaining it.

I'd be interested to see how your version translated who rose Jesus from the dead. I'll have to look it up later, but for transparency, maybe you can get a head start on me.

Romans 6:4
John 10:18
Romans 8:11

I guess also John 1:1. I know Jehovah witnesses translate it like Jesus is a god, little g. (Even though the Greek word is theos, theos in both places)

The CLV is a literal version. I was a KJV guy before I switched. I became annoyed with all of the mistranslation bias in the KJV, and regularly having to take time to research, to get to the truth of a matter. I should also mention that I'm certainly not a JW. I do take time to discuss truth with them, every time they approach me. They always leave thinking, when I put them on overload. I've never left one standing there. To my knowledge they don't use the CLV.

Ive caught textual criticism errors, and bias in the CLV; but so far it's closer to the truth than the other translations that I have closely examined.

(CLV) Ro 6:4
We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we/ also should be walking in newness of life.

(CLV) Jn 10:18
Not one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."

(CLV) Ro 8:11
Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home i in you.

(CLV) Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
 
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Kenobi

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That was a false accusation. I pray that you aren't sustaining it.

Which is more speculative I wonder... Saying they were hearing Jesus properly, or they weren't? I'm genuinely curious how you would reconcile that.

Edited because my phone jumbled the words :D

I love word studies. As literal, or not literal, as a version you find, you're still dealing with a translation, and English is clumsy...

John10:30 "I and the Father are one"

Since this is what caused the Jews to pick up stones, let's see if we can hear Jesus properly or not ourselves....

The word "one" is actually not talking about one as in union. The word literally means one, like the number 1. "I and my father, whom I keep talking about are not 2, but 1" is how I take it, and how the Jews took it as well. And how many Christians still today take it. It's not a false accusation being sustained... It's a statement that is a stumbling block for many.
 
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HARK!

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Which is more speculative I wonder... Saying they were hearing Jesus properly, or hearing they weren't? I'm genuinely curious how you would reconcile that.

Let's not speculate. What did Yahshua say?

(CLV) Jn 10:32
Jesus answered them, "Many ideal acts I show you from My Father. Because of what act of them are you stoning Me?"

Who is the God and father of Yahshua? YHWH Right out of the gate Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH. He was falsely accused.

(CLV) Jn 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not °written in your law, that I say you are gods'?

(CLV) Jn 10:35
If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled),

He who? YHWH. Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH.

(CLV) Jn 10:36
are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that `You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, `Son of God am I?


Who is the Father? He is the God and father of Yahshua, YHWH. Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH. Here he says who he is. "Son of God am I"

(CLV) Jn 10:37
If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me.

Enough said.


Now what was not said.

Yahshua never said that he was The God. He never said that he was the Father. He never said he was YHWH.
 
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Kenobi

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Let's not speculate. What did Yahshua say?

(CLV) Jn 10:32
Jesus answered them, "Many ideal acts I show you from My Father. Because of what act of them are you stoning Me?"

Who is the God and father of Yahshua? YHWH Right out of the gate Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH. He was falsely accused.

(CLV) Jn 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not °written in your law, that I say you are gods'?

(CLV) Jn 10:35
If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled),

He who? YHWH. Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH.

(CLV) Jn 10:36
are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that `You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, `Son of God am I?


Who is the Father? He is the God and father of Yahshua, YHWH. Yahshua is not claiming to be YHWH. Here he says who he is. "Son of God am I"

(CLV) Jn 10:37
If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me.

Enough said.


Now what was not said.

Yahshua never said that he was The God. He never said that he was the Father. He never said he was YHWH.

Aw diss we both had more to say haha! I edited my post just FYI
 
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HARK!

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I love word studies. As literal, or not literal, as a version you find, you're still dealing with a translation, and English is clumsy...

So is Greek.


The word "one" is actually not talking about one as in union.

(CLV) Gn 2:24
Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother; he will cling to his wife, and both of them will be one flesh.

What does echad mean in this verse?
 
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Kenobi

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So is Greek.




(CLV) Gn 2:24
Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother; he will cling to his wife, and both of them will be one flesh.

What does echad mean in this verse?

Also number one! True that!

So let me ask you directly.

Jesus is not God?
 
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HARK!

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So let me ask you directly.

Jesus is not God?

I would prefer not to allow you to create anymore confusion for onlookers, than you already have.

Before I answer, will you concede that Yahshua is not YHWH?

Will you concede that it was not Yahshua who gave the law on Mt. Sinai; but that it was YHWH, as the scripture clearly states?
 
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Kenobi

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I would prefer not to allow you to create anymore confusion for onlookers, than you already have.

Before I answer, will you concede that Yahshua is YHWH?

Will you concede that it was not Yahshua who gave the law on Mt. Sinai; but that it was YHWH, as the scripture clearly states?

It's not confusion. I'm not really sure what you're asking honestly.

You're asking me to concede what I've been saying? That Jesus is YHWH? I don't really think it's conceding if I've been saying that all along... Yahweh gave the laws on Mt Sinai. Yahweh is the first and the last, alpha and Omega. Psalm 107, Yahweh calms the storms, and the psalm paints a picture very much like the one where Jesus was on the boat calming the storms... Hence why the disciples were more frightened after the storm was calmed.

I never really understood the "Before I answer" thing some people do... I've been operating under the assumption you don't believe they're the same, and was interested in getting a clear answer to make sure there was no confusion. Clarity has been my goal this whole time, and I won't resort to stating what I think yours are, because it's unfruitful.
 
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Jesus is setting up the way to distinguish the OT law given by God to Moses and the NT law of Christ.

Jesus considered the Law of Moses to be a subset of God's law, but not the entirety of God's law which would include the Law of Christ.

Only the Jews were to follow the Law that God gave to Moses, and only they would be judged by it up to the time of the cross.

Now all men are called to follow the Law of Christ and all men will be judged by this law.
 
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Jesus is setting up the way to distinguish the OT law given by God to Moses and the NT law of Christ.

Jesus considered the Law of Moses to be a subset of God's law, but not the entirety of God's law which would include the Law of Christ.

Only the Jews were to follow the Law that God gave to Moses, and only they would be judged by it up to the time of the cross.

Now all men are called to follow the Law of Christ and all men will be judged by this law.

Can you prove any of this with scripture?
 
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Peter J Barban

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Can you prove any of this with scripture?
I don't want to write a long post only to have people dismiss it. Let's just start with Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

Christ is setting up his law as superior to Moses' Law. Not that Christ is superior to God, for, in fact, Christ is Yahweh, the I Am who spoke to Moses. But Christ's new law is superior to the old.
 
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