Adventist View of Demons is False

[Within Reason]

The debate regarding what is meant in Genesis to be made in God's image long pre-dates the existence of the SDA church. Im not sure how it connects to this present discussion?

Do a small study on "image" and "likeness" in scripture, and see the relevancy of how God created the beings (both angelic and mankind, and animal).

The best presentation that I know of Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are found in this series:

If anyone knows of a better series let me know.

 

[Dale]

That is because the devils do not physically enter a person/being. What devils do is "possess" the mind/heart. A devil cast out, is not being physically removed from the person/being, but that their control over the mind/heart is being removed. For instance, see John 13:2, wherein the devil is placing ideas into the mind of Judas. Once the devil has control of the heart/mind, he has control then over the whole body, including mouth (speech), etc. It is mind upon mind (like as unto hypnosis, which is possession, the hypnotizer has control over the person, for the person submitted their will to another (which is all that possession is)). It is Truth which sets persons free, when they acknowledge the Truth.

Most misunderstand possession as found in scripture, and most misunderstand the physical nature of angels in scripture.

Within Reason,

I take it that although you identify yourself as "Protestant" in your Avatar, you are actually an SDA.

I have a question about your explanation of possession and exorcism. You say that Satan placed ideas into the mind of Judas. This is fair enough, but does the condition of a possessed person go further than this? It looks like it does. If Judas' problem is that he was possessed by Satan, why didn't Jesus exorcise Judas, casting out Satan, just as Jesus did to demons on numerous other occasions?

It looks like there is a difference between a demon tempting a person and a demon possessing a person. The question remains, if demons are physical, and not spirits, how do they have access to human spirits?

 

[Dale]

The OP asserts something about SDA doctrine that is clearly false. (The OP either knows little about SDA doctrine or is being deliberately deceptive about SDA doctrine – straw manning it) The OP uses no references to support his strawman.

Then someone points out the problem and is criticised for doing the same thing the OP did.

Can someone Provide some references to support the idea that even one SDA holds this position regarding angels and demons, then we’ll have something to talk about.

Justin: "The OP uses no references to support his strawman."

What "strawman" needs supporting?

Justin: "Can someone Provide some references to support the idea that even one SDA holds this position regarding angels and demons, then we’ll have something to talk about."

What position is that?

 

[Within Reason]

... The Gospels contradict Ellen White's assumption that demons must have actual bodies, a notion that comes from her denial of a soul. ...

As far as is shown, EGW, based her belief upon scripture, which she cited prolifically.

As for as EGW denying the existence of "a soul", this is incorrect. EGW acknowledges what the Bible says about "soul", while rejecting the dualistic Platonic philosophy of the pagan/heathen.

So, EGW continually uses the word "soul", and if typed into the Seventh-day Adventist online search of just EGW writings, we find the word "soul" used 42,224 times (though granted there are many duplicates and compilations to eliminate in that number) - Ellen G. White Writings

 

[Within Reason]

Within Reason,

...I have a question about your explanation of possession and exorcism. You say that Satan placed ideas into the mind of Judas. This is fair enough, but does the condition of a possessed person go further than this?

Yes, which is what I had stated. The ideas are planted, like seed, and then grow and bear fruit, which becomes possession. The thoughts of satan are now the thoughts of the individual, and satan (devils) moulds the person more and more into his character. The possessed person's will is submitted to the satanic will, and thus is under the total control of the devil/s, and they can then be manipulated in their speech, movement, etc. (I gave hypnosis as the common example) Satan works through mediums non-living and living (persons).

King Saul is a good example.

 

[Within Reason]

Within Reason,

I take it that although you identify yourself as "Protestant" in your Avatar ...

I also know about Catholicism, Mormonism (LDS), WTS/JW, Baptists, Methodists and many others, including Islam, etc., and can cite their material in what they teach also.

For instance, ex-SDA cite all manner of SDA material, do you count them as SDA simply because they cite and know SDA theology? What of the Catholic apologist who does the same for Baptist theology, do you count that Catholic as Baptist?

I wouldn't take my silence as either admission or non-admission on anything. You may assume what you will, but it will serve no purpose in answering your OP either way, even if I was secretly Ted Wilson himself (I am not).

 

[Within Reason]

Even the so called "Nicene Creed", acknowledges that which is "visible" and "invisible", but says nothing about aethereal. Invisibility, is not the same as aethereality. Invisible, simply means, 'not seen', and in most cases the angels (good or evil) are not seen, and remain hid from sight, covering their glory of light. Light is used, even in modern science, to attempt cloaking - Are Cloaking Devices Coming? Metalens-Shaped Light May Lead The Way

 

[eleos1954]

It's spiritual warfare .... as far as Judas ... no doubt he had many many many opportunities to repent of his sin ... like we all have ..... Judas committed blasphemy .... continuous rejection of the Holy Spirit to the point of his final and most atrocious sin ... complete betrayal of our Lord.

Ephesians 6:12
New Living Translation
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

 

[Dale]

According to Ellen White, Satan naturally has a physical body and when the wicked are raised from the dead in the Second Resurrection, he sees an opportunity.

"Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives."

Book Five of Conflict of the Ages,The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48425-29


"The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the
unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom."


Book Five of Conflict of the Ages,The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48434-37

Again, Ellen White sees Satan as having a physical body and wielding power in that fashion, as a warrior. After the dead are raised, Satan forms them into an army to storm the City of God, New Jerusalem.

 

[Justin BT]

If anyone knows of a better series let me know.

made you sharing the one hour video to allow us to search for the spot where the ‘false SDA doctrine of angels and demons’ is described? Or to show that the SDA doctrine is not false?

We’re you expecting everyone to spend an hour watching it? Perhaps you could provide a link to the ‘false doctrine’ part?

 

[Within Reason]

According to Ellen White, Satan naturally has a physical body and when the wicked are raised from the dead in the Second Resurrection, he sees an opportunity.

"Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives."

Book Five of Conflict of the Ages,The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48425-29


"The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the
unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom."


Book Five of Conflict of the Ages,The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48434-37

Again, Ellen White sees Satan as having a physical body and wielding power in that fashion, as a warrior. After the dead are raised, Satan forms them into an army to storm the City of God, New Jerusalem.

True, but this was already admitted with the citation I provided earlier. Satan is a celestial (heavenly) being. All the angels are celestial beings, having celestial bodies.

Notice what Jesus and Paul stated:

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

Jesus stated that in the respective resurrection, the saints would have physical glorified bodies, as the angels do, and Paul re-iterates this, saying that those glorified bodies would be like Jesus own resurrected and glorified body.

Where is EGW, or even Seventh-day Adventists wrong for this position?

 

[Justin BT]

Wait, Are you asserting that Post-resurrection Jesus and angels have the same type of body?

This is not SDA theology at all.

 

[Justin BT]

Again, Ellen White sees Satan as having a physical body and wielding power in that fashion, as a warrior. After the dead are raised, Satan forms them into an army to storm the City of God, New Jerusalem.

Ellen white doesn’t say Satan takes on a human physical body here at all. At least not in the way Jesus did. Or are you asserting it’s controversial that Satan might be able to appear to humans in any form at all?

 

[Within Reason]

made you sharing the one hour video to allow us to search for the spot where the ‘false SDA doctrine of angels and demons’ is described? Or to show that the SDA doctrine is not false?

We’re you expecting everyone to spend an hour watching it? Perhaps you could provide a link to the ‘false doctrine’ part?

I do not expect anyone to do anything. I simply provided the reference.

If you want something more specific, in writing, you might try "The Truth About Angels" (book - here), or this single chapter on the subject:

The Great Controversy, Chapter 31, The Agency of Evil Spirits

Those are the best places that I know that are easy to search. Other works that might be included to consider are "Patriarchs and Prophets" (first few chapters), "Early Writings", and "Story of Redemption", as related to the OP on Angels/Devils and their nature.

 

[Within Reason]

Wait, Are you asserting that Post-resurrection Jesus and angels have the same type of body?

This is not SDA theology at all.

Please read more carefully.

 

[Justin BT]

Please read more carefully.

I am trying to understand you. Please write more precisely.

Also, You haven’t answered my question.

 

[Within Reason]

I am trying to understand you. Please write more precisely.

Also, You haven’t answered my question.

I certainly did:

Jesus stated that in the respective resurrection, the saints would have physical glorified bodies, as the angels do, and Paul re-iterates this, saying that those glorified bodies would be like Jesus own resurrected and glorified body.

Please read carefully, in that the difference is in the words "physical glorified bodies" as angels have, and "glorified bodies ... like Jesus own resurrected and glorified body". Both Angels and Mankind would then have glorified bodies, but each having their own nature. A dog and cat both have physical bodies, but both of differing flesh natures, as was stated in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Justin BT]

Yes, 1 Cor 15:40 explicitly states that heavenly and earthly bodies are different. It goes on to say that the bodies are no more the same than the sun compared to the moon or the stars.

So much so that the glory/splendor/brightness/praiseworthyness of the heavenly type of body is also different to the earthly type.

Where is the controversial element to this? Would not SDA’s and Christians throughout history agree on this?

 

[DNB]

The bible describes death as sleep .... many many many verses .... Jesus himself describes death as sleep

The bible teaches we are not immortal in any way, shape or form ... that does not happen until Jesus returns (at the last trump) and the 1st resurrection happens.

It is summed up here by Paul, although there is many many verses that supports his summation

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,cso that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

and here

1 Corinthians 15

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” ...

You are entirely correct on this issue, Eleos, and I commend you on qualifying your position with the quintessential Biblical passages on this issue. These texts are as didactic as they come, as far as the resurrection from the dead is concerned. Soul Awake proponents are always obligated to use implicit verses, to justify their views.
Plus, you supplemented your proof-text with explaining the ubiquitous, figurative use of sleep, to convey a dormant state of the dead until the 2nd Coming.

Outside of that, as far as I know, I hold to no other SDA doctrine, whatsoever.

 

[DNB]

EGW has stated in Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1, page 27.2:

"... I was then shown Satan as he was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede backward. I saw that he had demeaned himself so long, that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me [28] tremble, it was so full of evil, and Satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {1SG 27.2} ..."​

Well, this is just diabolical nonsense, no pun intended, at all! Ellen White is entirely deluded and filled with a lying spirit. No revelation, that is on par with Scripture, has been revealed to man since the Book of Revelation. And anyone who dares to add to it, stands accursed. She is declaring that it has been revealed to her, the anatomy and disposition of Satan, something not imparted, to such a detail, in Scripture.
She fabricated the whole depiction, to the point that it is full of nothing but stereotypes and clichés, that it ultimately sounds ridiculous.
She sounds frivolous, silly and immature. And worse, defiant in her audacity to make such extraordinary claims, and to allege that the inspiration came from God.
SDA people, be on your guard.​