Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[FreeGrace2]

I showed already that it’s not a universal in Titus 2. If you have another one or two, that’s fine. I’m not going to tackle a long list, as it’s not necessary.

I don't care about Titus 2. And I AGREED that Titus 2 doesn't specifically state that Christ died for everyone.

But then I provided MANY verses that specifically state that He died for everyone.

Interesting that you should ignore that.

 

[Hammster]

I don't care about Titus 2. And I AGREED that Titus 2 doesn't specifically state that Christ died for everyone.

But then I provided MANY verses that specifically state that He died for everyone.

Interesting that you should ignore that.

I didn’t. Read my post again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I can show WHY people are cast into the lake of fire, and it doesn't include punishment.

Go right ahead.

Don't you recall from my post that I already asked for your evidence that hell is punishment for sin.

So, you first. I will be more than happy to prove your theory wrong.

This is what I asked:
"Where is the evidence that hell is punishment for the reprobate? I know this is a very common understanding, but we don't understand the Bible by democracy.

I can show WHY people are cast into the lake of fire, and it doesn't include punishment.

So, can you show that hell is punishment "for the reprobate"?"

This is what you need to address before I give my proof.

Then I asked this:
"btw, since there will be many many people in hell who actually lived very moral lives, why pick on "the reprobate"?"

I would appreciate an answer rather than another dodge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn’t. Read my post again.

Why don't you read MY post again and address all the verses that specifically STATE that Christ died for everyone?

And by "all" here, I do mean every one of the verses I quoted regarding whom Christ died for.

 

[Hammster]

So, you first. I will be more than happy to prove your theory wrong.

You said you’d be willing to show why people will be cast into the lake of fire. You didn’t say you’d do that after my argument. If you aren’t going to do this, then that’s okay. I won’t bug you about it.

 

[Hammster]

Why don't you read MY post again and address all the verses that specifically STATE that Christ died for everyone?

And by "all" here, I do mean every one of the verses I quoted regarding whom Christ died for.

Fair enough.


My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

World has many definitions. John uses at least 8. There’s no reason (outside of loyalty to tradition) to assume that works here means every single person.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath. If God’s wrath were satisfied against every individual, there would be no need to throw them into the lake of fire. Zero.

Plus, the reason John is telling them this isn’t to put forth a doctrine of universal atonement, but to comfort them that the Father loves them and has shown them by giving His Son.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps I missed some post:

For real !? Is some false teacher promoting universalism / false gospel here on this thread !? (again, not just in the threads where it is permitted , sadly ) ?

 

[renniks]

So it’s the one sin He doesn’t atone for?

If you don't think so, show me a verse that says non believers are saved...

 

[Hammster]

If you don't think so, show me a verse that says non believers are saved...

I’m asking if the sin of unbelief is atoned for. You say it’s not. I assume that you mean only for those who will never believe. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[renniks]

I’m asking if the sin of unbelief is atoned for. You say it’s not. I assume that you mean only for those who will never believe. Is that a correct assumption?

A sin that NEVER ends CANNOT be atoned for "once for all" since it has no ending point. How could CHRIST make final payment for a sin that doesn't finally end?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said you’d be willing to show why people will be cast into the lake of fire. You didn’t say you’d do that after my argument.

I guess you missed the flow of the post. I said I was very willing to prove my position, after I challenged you to prove your position.

If you aren’t going to do this, then that’s okay. I won’t bug you about it.

Well, now that I've cleared up your confusion, please proceed. Then I will show the truth. If you are willing.

You first.

Don't worry, I won't disappoint.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Why don't you read MY post again and address all the verses that specifically STATE that Christ died for everyone?

And by "all" here, I do mean every one of the verses I quoted regarding whom Christ died for."

Fair enough.

Of course. I'm always fair.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

World has many definitions. John uses at least 8. There’s no reason (outside of loyalty to tradition) to assume that works here means every single person.

This is hardly a refutation of my position or a support for yours.

I'm NOT talking about any other use by John. I AM talking about his SPECIFIC use of "world" here.

Consider the last part of the verse: "not for OURS only,but also for the those of the whole world". Here, John speaks of both believers in the words "OURS", and unbelievers, by the words "the whole world".

I've already pointed out that to prove "world" here only refers to elect people, you've got to show it IN THE CONTEXT. So your statement fails on that point.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath. If God’s wrath were satisfied against every individual, there would be no need to throw them into the lake of fire. Zero.

Uh, excuse me, but who ever said the verse is about God being propitiated "against every individual"? That's just an assumption or presumption.

God was satisfied (propitiated) by Christ's sacrifice on behalf of OUR (believer's) sins, and not onluy that, but for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

What you haven't shown in THIS context is that "whole world" only means "the elect", as you presume it does.

Plus, the reason John is telling them this isn’t to put forth a doctrine of universal atonement, but to comfort them that the Father loves them and has shown them by giving His Son.

Still doesn't come close to supporting your view.

Where does John indicate anywhere in the context that by "whole world" he DIDN'T mean everyone in humanity?

Now, I gave a whole lot of verses. Is this your only response?

 

[Hammster]

A sin that NEVER ends CANNOT be atoned for "once for all" since it has no ending point. How could CHRIST make final payment for a sin that doesn't finally end?

Okay. So limited atonement it is then.

 

[Hammster]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Why don't you read MY post again and address all the verses that specifically STATE that Christ died for everyone?

And by "all" here, I do mean every one of the verses I quoted regarding whom Christ died for."

Of course. I'm always fair.


This is hardly a refutation of my position or a support for yours.

I'm NOT talking about any other use by John. I AM talking about his SPECIFIC use of "world" here.

Consider the last part of the verse: "not for OURS only,but also for the those of the whole world". Here, John speaks of both believers in the words "OURS", and unbelievers, by the words "the whole world".

I've already pointed out that to prove "world" here only refers to elect people, you've got to show it IN THE CONTEXT. So your statement fails on that point.


Uh, excuse me, but who ever said the verse is about God being propitiated "against every individual"? That's just an assumption or presumption.

God was satisfied (propitiated) by Christ's sacrifice on behalf of OUR (believer's) sins, and not onluy that, but for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

What you haven't shown in THIS context is that "whole world" only means "the elect", as you presume it does.


Still doesn't come close to supporting your view.

Where does John indicate anywhere in the context that by "whole world" he DIDN'T mean everyone in humanity?

Now, I gave a whole lot of verses. Is this your only response?

Well, I explained it. I never said I’d make you believe it.

 

[renniks]

Okay. So limited atonement it is then.

Lol, not limited in the sense that the reformed use "limited". In fact, to called it limited atonement is a misnomer, because all sin is atoned for but it's conditional on belief.

 

[Hammster]

Lol, not limited in the sense that the reformed use "limited". In fact, to called it limited atonement is a misnomer, because all sin is atoned for but it's conditional on belief.

You just said that all sin isn’t atoned for.

 

[renniks]

You just said that all sin isn’t atoned for.

It really gets down to splitting hairs. It's just an argument about the meaning of words, which is not really productive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay. So limited atonement it is then.

No, it isn't then.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, I explained it. I never said I’d make you believe it.

Could you identify the post # since I obviously didn't see anything of the sort.

If you are referring to your "explanation" of 1 John 2:2, I already explained why it failed.

Unless you can show in context that "all", "whole world", etc, cannot mean all of humanity, you have no support for your theory at all.

And there's nothing in the context of 1 John 2:2 that forces "whole world" to mean less than all of humanity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hammster,

In post #467, I provided 9 verses that plainly say that Christ died for everyone. So far, you only attempted to explain 1 of them, which you failed in that attempt. You didn't show any evidence from the context that "whole world" in 1 Jn 2:2 cannot mean less than everyone.

There are 8 more verses to explain and prove that the key words cannot mean everyone in humanity. Are you up to it?

There is also a second issue at hand that you haven't addressed yet.

In post #469 I said this:

"Also, the fact that hell is punishment for the reprobate, so it would be unjust for the Father to punish the Son for sins that the reprobate will be punished for."

I challenged you to provide verses that teach that hell is "punishment for the reprobate". I then promised to provide clear evidence that those who will be cast into hell are cast there for a different reason. And sin has nothing to do with it.

Are you up to it?