The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Neogaia777]

Anyone who is for righteousness or obedience to Jesus is not going to speak against righteousness or obedience to Jesus.

Most of us are not against it, we're just against the way that most people are going about it, works of the Law, of our own "self" and our own will and strength, efforts, exertion, etc, we have found out that it does not work and actually makes things worse, makes "sin and sins worse", etc, and goes or works or operates against the new way, etc, and we want to tell other people about it, and want to do away with people who are preaching and teaching against this newfound way that we have found, but are still trying to do it the old way and are telling people that "that" is still "the way", etc, when we know it is not anymore, doesn't work, etc...

That is what we for and what we are against, etc...

The two are diametrically opposed, etc...

And we want to tell others about it, etc...

And because the two are diametrically opposed, those still in and operating in and preaching the old way, are against us and this newly newfound way that we have found, etc...

So, it's nothing personal you see, the two are just diametically opposed, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

We get frustrated with those still operating in and under the old way, and still telling others it is still the way, etc, when we know it is not anymore, doesn't work, think you guys are wasting your time, etc, teaching others a false gospel, an anti-grace, anti-love and anti-mercy/forgiveness gospel, that we know does not work anymore, and never really truly worked anyway or to begin with, etc, makes sin worse, etc, cause it's anti-love, etc, anyway, we get frustrated sometimes, and for that we do apologize, etc, but we just can't help telling people about this new way, that is the new covenant in our view, and get frustrated with those coming against it and us, etc, just because they are still operating in and under the old way still, the old covenant still, insisting that that is still the way, ect, that is not the new covenant, or new way, etc, and we know this, etc...

The old way never produces true obedience or righteousness ever, cause it is "anti" true obedience and true righteousness always, and we know this both from scripture and from experience, etc, and wish to impart that wisdom from scripture and from experience to others still trying to operate in and under the old ways, etc..

Anyway, we get frustrated sometimes, and for that we do apologize...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[bobsmename]

Its always the same, point out that people who preach righteousness of obeying the law do not practice what they preach/demand of others, and they will happily, without conscience break the moral code/law they insist everyone else must obey. They will bear false witness against you, to deflect from their hypocrisy without any qualms in doing so. People who preach righteousness of obeying the law are probably the most antinomian people I have ever come across. They simply excuse their sin as not really sin, and seek to justify breaking the law they insist everyone else must keep. As they say, there is nothing new under the sun

 

[Neogaia777]

We also have a serious intense dislike of your kind, and that is not exactly right of us either, and is probably another thing we need to apologize for...

We see you as the worst of the bunch, and major hypocrites, and we despise hypocrisy, but we should not hate you, and for that we are sorry...

It mainly just such intense frustration really, we have all "been there", and we only want what's best for you really, for we know that if you come to the end of "yourself", and your own will strength, ways, efforts, exertion, etc, is when you will truly come to Christ "in spirit and in truth" for the very first time truly for the first time, etc, but you just won't give the old ways, and that frustrates us very much, for we have already come to the ends or ourselves and our own ways, for that is what that old way is supposed to do, etc, and we already have, and have come into the new, like I said we have "been there" (already), etc, but you have not yet, and, your teaching others that that that old way is still "the way", etc, when we know it is not, etc, and will only make a person, and a person's sins worse, and will only maybe deceive them into thinking they are "better" or are doing better, and we know they are not, and we hate that, and hate to see that, etc, it works directly against what we are saying and/or teaching and are trying to preach and/or do with people, which we know is the real true way, etc, but your ways are directly opposed to it/them, etc...

I guess we should be more patient and understanding and just patiently wait for you to come to the ends or yourselves and your own will, strength, exertion, and ways, etc, and just "be here for you", when you finally do, etc...

But your also teaching others a false way that is directly opposed to the true way, so what are we supposed to do...? I don't know if you know just how frustrating that can be...?

Anyway, we are "sorry"... I guess the best thing to do is just pray for you guys I guess...? But sometimes we feel it's very necessary to confront people like you and your kind directly and rather blatantly and bluntly also, but maybe we should not maybe, IDK...?

We just feel like you guys are making people "twice and much a candidate for hell" or "twice as much in danger of going and being on their way to hell" when you insist on teaching and convincing others that the old way(s) is/are still the way(s) still, etc,when we know that they are most certainly not anymore, etc, like I said, very, very frustrating...

You guys just flat out refuse to "enter into God's rest", when it is openly available to you now, but you just will not enter into it, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[bobsmename]

Jesus was harassed by the religious of his day who wanted to cling to righteousness of obeying the law. They constantly accused him of ignoring the law
Stephen, the first Christian martyr was arrested and stoned to death by these same people. One of the charges against him, he was ignoring the law
Paul wrote: Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision/ie law, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11

The offence of the cross is righteousness apart from law. People want the credit for their salvation, they want the praise. It is not theirs to have.
What happened 2000 years ago still happens today, nothing has changed sadly in this regard.

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus was harassed by the religious of his day who wanted to cling to righteousness of obeying the law. They constantly accused him of ignoring the law
Stephen, the first Christian martyr was arrested and stoned to death by these same people. One of the charges against him, he was ignoring the law
Paul wrote: Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision/ie law, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11

The offence of the cross is righteousness apart from law. People want the credit for their salvation, they want the praise. It is not theirs to have.
What happened 2000 years ago still happens today, nothing has changed sadly in this regard.

It's so very sad, make me sad, etc...

They just will not enter into God's rest... And yeah, some of them might still want the credit and praise and "glory" maybe, etc, and from men maybe, etc, guess I hadn't or don't even consider that anymore since it's a non-issue for me now and has been for a very long time now, etc, I don't even think about it anymore, etc...

But/and/or/because if it is "self-glory" or glorification, and not to mention if it is false and fake or a lie, what is it really worth really...?

Anyway, It's very, very sad, makes me sad, etc...

I'm sad for them, and that's the worst part, and I don't think they even realize it, etc, nor care, etc...

But I/we do, etc...

And care about it "for them", etc, when they don't seem to care at all about it, etc...

Their focus is entirely on "other things" things that are not at all good for them ever, etc...

Anyway, It's very sad and makes me sad, etc...

God Bless!

 

[bobsmename]

It's so very sad, make me sad, etc...

They just will not enter into God's rest... And yeah, some of them might still want the credit and praise and "glory" maybe, etc, and from men maybe, etc, guess I hadn't or don't even consider that anymore since it's a non-issue for me now and has been for a very long time now, etc, I don't even think about it anymore, etc...

But/and/or/because if it is "self-glory" or glorification, and not to mention if it is false and fake or a lie, what is it really worth really...?

Anyway, It's very, very sad, makes me sad, etc...

I'm sad for them, and that's the worst part, and I don't think they even realize it, etc, nor care, etc...

But I/we do, etc...

And care about it "for them", etc, when they don't seem to care at all about it, etc...

Their focus is entirely on "other things" things that are not at all good for them ever, etc...

Anyway, It's very sad and makes me sad, etc...

God Bless!

Maybe I should feel sadder for them than I do. But all I can see is the people who do not see through them. Trusting souls who believe these people do practice what they preach, and they get crushed as people did in Jesus day when he walked this earth.
No wonder so many churches are half empty, if all people get preached are words that bear no reflection on the lives of the people who are preaching them. And words that ignore the sacrifice Christ made for those who would come to him

 

[Neogaia777]

It's so very sad, make me sad, etc...

They just will not enter into God's rest... And yeah, some of them might still want the credit and praise and "glory" maybe, etc, and from men maybe, etc, guess I hadn't or don't even consider that anymore since it's a non-issue for me now and has been for a very long time now, etc, I don't even think about it anymore, etc...

But/and/or/because if it is "self-glory" or glorification, and not to mention if it is false and fake or a lie, what is it really worth really...?

Anyway, It's very, very sad, makes me sad, etc...

I'm sad for them, and that's the worst part, and I don't think they even realize it, etc, nor care, etc...

But I/we do, etc...

And care about it "for them", etc, when they don't seem to care at all about it, etc...

Their focus is entirely on "other things" things that are not at all good for them ever, etc...

Anyway, It's very sad and makes me sad, etc...

God Bless!

I don't think they realize it's a sadness that we bear for them, that they refuse to see or face or carry themselves, that would bring them to true repentance and into a real true relationship with Christ for the first time, instead of just faking it or having to fake it, etc...

Maybe it's just too much for them, IDK...?

But we will bear it for them, we will pick up not only our own cross and follow after Him (Jesus) but theirs as well... it's just so sad though, so very tragic, that they refuse to even see let alone bear or carry or pick their own crosses and truly follow after Him, and maybe lighten our load as well maybe...

I don't think they even know or care that we are doing that, carrying a or the or very thing that would lead them to true repentance, and into a real relationship with Him (Jesus) for the first time, etc, instead of only just saying they do, but when they actually don't or aren't or are just "faking it", etc...

Anyway, I wish they knew, I wish they would open their eyes, I wish they would carry their own load, and bear and carry their own cross(es), etc, not because we're mad that we are carrying it, but just because, it not only could be, but actually is and would be the real true source that would actually really truly save them, etc, and I mean really save them and not just be a lie or all lies, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Maybe I should feel sadder for them than I do. But all I can see is the people who do not see through them. Trusting souls who believe these people do practice what they preach, and they get crushed as people did in Jesus day when he walked this earth.
No wonder so many churches are half empty, if all people get preached are words that bear no reflection on the lives of the people who are preaching them. And words that ignore the sacrifice Christ made for those who would come to him

I very much have a real "heart for them", but I think most of them could care less, just so very sad, tragic, etc...

I mourn for them when they should be mourning for themselves...

Might just be too much for them though, and if it is, I guess I'll bear it for them till the end, just don't know if my bearing it will save them though, and if it does not, that is a very much highly regretable and very, very sad thing indeed...

Nothing seems to get through to them ever, not even deeply heartfelt intensely passionate pleas, etc...

They seem to not care less no matter what, and I feel like I have tried quite literally "everything", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[bobsmename]

I very much have a real "heart for them", but I think most of them could care less, just so very sad, tragic, etc...

It seems, people who demand of others to be righteous before God what they do not demand of themselves couldn't care a less about the warning of Jesus:

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

I truly do not see how, such professing Christians cannot heed such a warning, their eternity is at stake. To demand of others what you do not demand of yourself to inherit eternal life is just hammering nails into your own coffin if we believe Jesus words

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

What do I believe is happening when the Eternal Security proponent or Belief Alone Proponent tells us their life experience of how they struggled to keep the Law and they could not do it, and they thought they were hypocrites for trying to do so and their solution was to simply believe in Jesus alone as the remedy or cure?

I have heard these testimonies before. So what is happening?

Well, I do not believe they are saying they have overcome grievous sin because most Belief Alone Proponents proponents I have talked have a problem when I tell them we have to keep God's laws. If they were keeping God's laws via by their method of believing in Jesus alone, they would not condemn me for saying we must keep God's laws (if they are also keeping God's laws as a part of their version of the gospel). This is why I believe they commit grievous sin on some level. Some of them still lie, look at women in lust, hate, and swear, etc. and think they are saved while doing so because they have a belief alone on Jesus. They think they are no longer hypocrites because they do not have to tell others to live righteously when they are not living righteously (for they feel it is impossible to live righteously in this life). Yet, Paul says to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfect holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). They think the way to live righteously is not in what we do but is in what Jesus did for them alone on the cross and by the life that He lived. Yet, 1 John 3:7 says, he that does righteousness is righteous. They will say that I am bearing false witness that they have not overcome sin. But why do these same individuals ask us Conditional Salvationists (like myself) if we obey certain teachings of Jesus as if to imply that we cannot possibly keep them? A person who has overcome sin would not imply so as to speak against the standard of righteousness that Jesus gave us.

Why do they believe this way and or why did they have this kind of experience in struggling to keep God's laws? The first problem is that they do not understand that we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses, as a whole or contract (Which is what Paul was talking about). Paul was referring to those Christians who thought they first needed to be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and then see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). If one makes circumcision the basis for their salvation then they are making the Law the foundation of their faith and how they are saved (Which is wrong). So it is true, that Paul was addressing the problem of trying to overcome sin via the Law alone without God's grace in Romans 7:14-24. But Paul was referring to the Law of Moses, and he was referring to Law Alone Salvationism or trust in the Law Alone without first placing his faith in Jesus Christ. Paul spoke as a Pharisee who was under the Law of Moses before he became a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. Most (not all) Eternal Security Proponents and or Belief Alone Proponents believe that Romans 7:14-24 is referring to Paul giving us his experience as a Christian (Which means Paul is daily struggling with sin and his solution is to simply believe in Jesus and not worry about sin anymore - even when they do sin).

What they fail to understand is that Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Eternal Security proponents think walking after the flesh means to think in a human way. They use the verse that says the carnal mind as proof of their interpretation. But Paul says that the works of the flesh are various sins in Galatians 5:19-21. The carnal mind is a sinful mind that seeks to justify sin. Why else would Jude 1:4 warn us against those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality?

George Sodini thought he was saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. George Sodini thought he could sin and still be saved because he believed all his future sin was paid for. Yet, George Sodini committed mass murder, and then suicide and he wrote in his suicide letter that he was still saved. Even his own church said he was saved despite what he did. This to me is the true fruit of Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism. Sure, there are many in Eternal Security who think this kind of guy was never saved or never knew God and or never was born again. But when I talk with these same Eternal Security proponents, they also tell me that they do not lose salvation by sin. They also tell me that the "sin unto death" in 1 John 5:16-17 is referring to physical death and not spiritual death and God is taking the believer home to Heaven early because they are committing a certain sin like gluttony, drunkenness, etc.

Just do a YouTube search on "Dan Corner vs. Mark Driscoll." You will see the double message that the Belief Alone Proponent preaches. For at times, they may appear to be for the standard of holy living, and at other times they are not for that.

Second problem is that they do not understand that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). They do not understand that God's grace does not teach us not to worry about sin anymore but it teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (and not the next world).

Third problem that they do not understand is that there are ways according to the Bible to overcome grievous sin (or sins that the Bible explicitly states that will lead to spiritual death) in this life. God gives us the solution in His Word to overcome grievous sin or sins of clear condemnation. Yes, we also need to pray and ask God for help, as well. We cannot do anything without the Lord. In fact, employing the methods within His Word to overcome grievous sin (is abiding by what God desires us to do). The solution is not ignoring sin or making light of sin while we have a belief alone on Jesus. I do not believe any believer has overcome grievous sin by having a belief alone on Jesus (as the basis for their method of overcoming sin). The only way they can say that they do overcome sin is that Jesus overcomes for them (When in reality they have not actually overcome themselves).

 

[timothyu]

No wonder so many churches are half empty, if all people get preached are words that bear no reflection on the lives of the people who are preaching them.

Of how the traditional ways of man are backwards to the Kingdom? the world of man is built upon self while the Kingdom is built upon others? How much does the world hate you for this message? It should as it runs contrary to the default thinking of man.

 

[Emsmom1]

As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

 

[Ilikecats]

As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

Works are evidence of salvation. You aren’t saved by them.
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10

 

[bobsmename]

As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

You are right, there are verses to support osas, and verses that suggest otherwise. And the bible does not contradict itself does it. I often turn to the parable of the sower here, it seems a good reference to me. In the second example, people made a shallow commitment, they started out on the path, but when persecution came because of the word, they fell away. So no osas for them. However, in the third example, people on the path kept getting sidetracked from the path by worldly things. Jesus only said these people did not mature in the faith, they did not walk away, you can say they had osas. You only mature by practicing right from wrong. So for me, it depends on the individual, and the commitment they in their heart make to Christ. And only God knows the heart. So for some osas is true, for others it is not. If you take a hard and fast view for all, as you say, you will run into trouble with scripture one way or the other., And yes, you can make a full commitment but keep getting sidetracked from the path

 

[bobsmename]

As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

Also, it is rather ironic, that many protestants, who much rail against the catholic church, have far more in common with that church than they realise, according to their stated doctrine,

 

[HatGuy]

I do not believe he is saying he overcame grievous sin. I got the impression that he was suggesting that we cannot obey Jesus and that his solution is to simply believe in Jesus alone for salvation (and not worry about his sin anymore because Jesus paid for it all). For he was asking me if I did certain teachings by Jesus (suggesting or implying that it is impossible to obey them).

The testimony is showing that we need God's power to walk in obedience, and our own willpower / strength / resolve / etc. is unable to truly break the power of sin.

You've quite rightly stated before that we are unable to live in obedience without God's power, Spirit and grace. This is a great testimony that shows that point.

Perhaps it would be good to mention that "easy-believism" is the idea that mental assent to Christ is good enough, which is untrue and not the same thing as "faith alone". The latter states that only through faith (trust) in Christ are we able to overcome. The full gamut of salvation includes both justification and sanctification, and "faith alone" proponents are simply saying that only trust in Christ brings justification AND sanctification and holiness. It's only Christ and trust in Christ which makes a human obey Christ.

The kind of "believe" the Bible proclaims is the kind where a child believes their father and thus does what their father says. Faith like a child means obedience.

But obedience cannot and will not happen without trust in God. No one can do what Jesus says without believing what He says first. Easy believism is more like shallow agreement, but faith says, "If you say don't do this, I won't. But if I can't stop doing it, please come in your power and change me!"

The necessity of obedience is not in dispute, at least in my theology. The method through which obedience is achieved, however, has been the main debate for me. It is not achieved through willpower or Law, and not through threats and fear. The Law of Christ is lived out by faith / trust in Jesus, not willpower or resolve, not fear.

 

[bobsmename]

The testimony is showing that we need God's power to walk in obedience, and our own willpower / strength / resolve / etc. is unable to truly break the power of sin.

You've quite rightly stated before that we are unable to live in obedience without God's power, Spirit and grace. This is a great testimony that shows that point.

Perhaps it would be good to mention that "easy-believism" is the idea that mental assent to Christ is good enough, which is untrue and not the same thing as "faith alone". The latter states that only through faith (trust) in Christ are we able to overcome. The full gamut of salvation includes both justification and sanctification, and "faith alone" proponents are simply saying that only trust in Christ brings justification AND sanctification and holiness. It's only Christ and trust in Christ which makes a human obey Christ.

The kind of "believe" the Bible proclaims is the kind where a child believes their father and thus does what their father says. Faith like a child means obedience.

But obedience cannot and will not happen without trust in God. No one can do what Jesus says without believing what He says first. Easy believism is more like shallow agreement, but faith says, "If you say don't do this, I won't. But if I can't stop doing it, please come in your power and change me!"

The necessity of obedience is not in dispute, at least in my theology. The method through which obedience is achieved, however, has been the main debate for me. It is not achieved through willpower or Law. The Law of Christ is lived out by faith / trust in Jesus, not willpower or resolve.

I like this verse:
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. Rom1:5

 

[HatGuy]

I like this verse:
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. Rom1:5

Nice!

 

[Neogaia777]

As a new believer, I've read this thread with interest. I have a question (sincere, not snarky)-what is the difference between the salvation spoken of by Bible Highlighter (grace + works, as I understand it) and the soteriology of the Catholic Church?
Also, if OSAS isn't true, then is it fair to say that we are saved by grace but STAY saved by our own works? In which case, we don't really receive eternal life by faith alone-but maybe the possibility of eternal life (if our works are good)? It's a confusing topic for me because there are verses that suggest OSAS is true and verses that suggest it is not. And since the bible can't contradict itself (right?), I must be missing something.

No good works, and/or sin in your life, could maybe be a "risk" to someone's salvation "maybe", but no one except God can know or judge for sure, etc...

But, we can be sure that He (God) does judge righteously and truly justly, and I'm sure He does that on and individual, case by case basis, knowing every detail of all of those each individually in full, etc...

Hope that helps.

God Bless!