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The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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The problems are numerous. The early church (the people, and not a building) met in each other's homes and they did not seek to build a big building and designate one man to speak and run things. Unbelievers can walk in and start to praise God next to you. They may never even accept the Lord, but they just go there. But what fellowship does light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6 warns against this. Try re-reading the chapter several times to let it sink in by what Paul is really saying. Also, church has become like a big show or form of entertainment. Smoke, and lights, and hip music all are a part of worshiping God. Women come to church dressing indecently (tempting other men). Everybody comes and sings, and hears the message, and they go home. Most do not really get intimate with everyone there and get to know each other and go over each other's homes and or help the new person to follow Jesus and to live holy and to study His Word. They do not go out and help the poor, and spread the gospel in their area.
I've had the opposite experience. I've attended 3 local churches in my area, a non denominational almost mega church, a Methodist, and a Baptist congregation that meets at a high school auditorium. All of these churches have established 'small groups' programs that meet outside of church for prayer, bible study, and these groups are inclusive and the church leadership vehemently encourage membership to participate in at least one of these 'small groups.' Wasn't the early church more underground due to worries about being rounded up and executed? Also, the Orthodox on this forum are fond of pointing out that the original churches in Acts all still congregate in those cities. Those churches are still there. I was always under the impression it was a good thing to invite non believers to church, since Jesus is present when we gather in His name. Jesus didn't turn away lost sinners? But wasn't He was much harsher with the religious hypocrites of that day, calling them scathing things like 'whitewashed sepulchers?'
 
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Jesus didn't turn away lost sinners? But wasn't He was much harsher with the religious hypocrites of that day, calling them scathing things like 'whitewashed sepulchers?'
Yep. The religious who did not practice what they preached/demanded of others were those who Jesus reserved his harshest words for. Such people are still around today
 
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I've had the opposite experience. I've attended 3 local churches in my area, a non denominational almost mega church, a Methodist, and a Baptist congregation that meets at a high school auditorium. All of these churches have established 'small groups' programs that meet outside of church for prayer, bible study, and these groups are inclusive and the church leadership vehemently encourage membership to participate in at least one of these 'small groups.' Wasn't the early church more underground due to worries about being rounded up and executed? Also, the Orthodox on this forum are fond of pointing out that the original churches in Acts all still congregate in those cities. Those churches are still there. I was always under the impression it was a good thing to invite non believers to church, since Jesus is present when we gather in His name. Jesus didn't turn away lost sinners? But wasn't He was much harsher with the religious hypocrites of that day, calling them scathing things like 'whitewashed sepulchers?'

I am glad that these churches encourage to meet up in home groups. That is where these meetings should really take place. Unbelievers should not be aware of these meetings so as to attend. Evangelism is a different way or method and it is not in the form of fellowship. Again, a person who has not accepted Jesus as their Savior should not praise God next to you. They are pretending. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Their influence upon you would not be with the mind of Christ. I have been to a church before in the past that met up in a school. The problem is that they sold books, and tapes outside the service. the problem is that this church eventually grew into having a huge building with a fitness center, etc. and they later had mini sermons every week (along with the main sermon) to guilt trip people into giving money.
 
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Yep. The religious who did not practice what they preached/demanded of others were those who Jesus reserved his harshest words for. Such people are still around today

Are we not to follow the words of Jesus? Even if a believer is not perfectly obeying all of His words, is that not what a follower of Christ should be striving to do? To not seek to obey the words of Jesus is to no longer be a Christ follower. If one is not following Christ, then they are following somebody else.
 
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Neogaia777

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I am glad that these churches encourage to meet up in home groups. That is where these meetings should really take place. Unbelievers should not be aware of these meetings so as to attend. Evangelism is a different way or method and it is not in the form of fellowship. Again, a person who has not accepted Jesus as their Savior should not praise God next to you. They are pretending. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Their influence upon you would not be with the mind of Christ. I have been to a church before in the past that met up in a school. The problem is that they sold books, and tapes outside the service. the problem is that this church eventually grew into having a huge building with a fitness center, etc. and they later had mini sermons every week (along with the main sermon) to guilt trip people into giving money.
I mean no offense and I'm really not trying to argue, but, how does an unbeliever or non-believer become a believer then...?

God Bless!
 
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Are we not to follow the words of Jesus? Even if a believer is not perfectly obeying all of His words, is that not what a follower of Christ should be striving to do? To not seek to obey the words of Jesus is to no longer be a Christ follower. If one is not following Christ, then they are following somebody else.[/QUOTE

In your own life, , you often fail to live as you know you should live. So no matter how much scripture you selectively quote, ultimately you do not rely on obeying the law to be righteous before God, you rely on God's unfailing love for you, an unfailing love shown by Christ dying for your sins. Sot he reality of your life is the same as mine, a righteousness of Christ dying for you.
Do you not know, that is no longer an external law for the believer, engraved in stone and written in ink? It is a law within them, an internal law, it is in their hearts and minds. What is in your heart, you in your heart obviously want to follow, so your question, bearing that in mind is needless
 
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Are we not to follow the words of Jesus? Even if a believer is not perfectly obeying all of His words, is that not what a follower of Christ should be striving to do? To not seek to obey the words of Jesus is to no longer be a Christ follower. If one is not following Christ, then they are following somebody else.
In your own life, , you often fail to live as you know you should live. So no matter how much scripture you selectively quote, ultimately you do not rely on obeying the law to be righteous before God, you rely on God's unfailing love for you, an unfailing love shown by Christ dying for your sins. So the reality of your life is the same as mine, a righteousness of Christ dying for you.
Do you not know, that it is no longer an external law for the believer, engraved in stone and written in ink? It is a law within them, an internal law, it is in their hearts and minds. What is in your heart, you in your heart obviously want to follow, so your question, bearing that in mind is pointless
 
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So we have established that though you lay the condition of eternal life on obeying Christ's commands, you yourself do not even try and obey many of them

Matthew 19:17 says, "...but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
27 And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
28 And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live."
(Luke 10:25-28).

Notice that Jesus did not correct the Lawyer and say, "Wrong lawyer!!!!" "You cannot love God and love your neighbor as a part of eternal life!" "Just believe in me and do not worry about your sin!" But is that what Jesus said? Surely not. Jesus said to the lawyer, you have answered right (or correctly), do this, and you shall live.

But the problem was (like many today), the lawyer did not believe the very words of Scripture that he was quoting. The lawyer mocked and asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
 
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Matthew 19:17 says, "...but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
27 And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
28 And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live."
(Luke 10:25-28).

Notice that Jesus did not correct the Lawyer and say, "Wrong lawyer!!!!" "You cannot love God and love your neighbor as a part of eternal life!" "Just believe in me and do not worry about your sin!" But is that what Jesus said? Surely not. Jesus said to the lawyer, you have answered right (or correctly), do this, and you shall live.

But the problem was (like many today), the lawyer did not believe the very words of Scripture that he was quoting. The lawyer mocked and asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
Is it loving your neighbour as yourself to demand of him what you do not demand of yourself to inherit eternal life? It isn't is it, that's why I don't do it. I want to obey Jesus
 
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Neogaia777

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Matthew 19:17 says, "...but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
27 And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
28 And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live."
(Luke 10:25-28).

Notice that Jesus did not correct the Lawyer and say, "Wrong lawyer!!!!" "You cannot love God and love your neighbor as a part of eternal life!" "Just believe in me and do not worry about your sin!" But is that what Jesus said? Surely not. Jesus said to the lawyer, you have answered right (or correctly), do this, and you shall live.

But the problem was (like many today), the lawyer did not believe the very words of Scripture that he was quoting. The lawyer mocked and asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
See @Hazelelponi post about the rich young ruler in this thread (below).

The man was not mocking Jesus either, Jesus actually wanted to show the rich young ruler that He was not actually keeping and obeying the Laws that he said he was, or professed to following and keeping and obeying, not inwardly anyway... Again see @Hazelelponi post here (below)...

Jesus adding to the law

God Bless!
 
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In your own life, , you often fail to live as you know you should live.

Again, you don't know my heart, and life. So you make accusation without any knowledge about me. Again, you are not using Scripture to make your case here. You are going off your experience and not off what the Word of God says, dear sir. I will trust the words of Jesus and seek to always obey them and to follow Jesus. You can go in the other direction of not following Jesus if you want. But I will trust in the Lord.

You said:
So no matter how much scripture you selectively quote,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. Are you hearing the Word?
It appears to me that you are rejecting whole chunks of words by Jesus, and you are discouraging others from following Jesus by implying that it is impossible to do what He requires of us.

You said:
ultimately you do not rely on obeying the law to be righteous before God,

You are correct. I do not seek to obey the Law of Moses. I believe the 613 laws of Moses was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, and we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Do you believe that?

You said:
you rely on God's unfailing love for you, an unfailing love shown by Christ dying for your sins. So the reality of your life is the same as mine, a righteousness of Christ dying for you.

Try reading again the imputation of Christ's sacrifice to a believer's life in 1 John 1:7. We not only need to have faith in His blood (God's grace) (Romans 3:25), but we also need to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

You said:
Do you not know, that it is no longer an external law for the believer, engraved in stone and written in ink? It is a law within them, an internal law, it is in their hearts and minds. What is in your heart, you in your heart obviously want to follow, so your question, bearing that in mind is pointless

Paul is referring to the Law of Moses when he talked about the engraving on stones because there were no "Ten Commandment" tablets given to us in the New Covenant. God did not give us another set of written words directly like He did with Moses. The New Covenant was established by the working of the Son of God, and His followers, which was then later recorded or written down afterwards.
 
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Neogaia777

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See @Hazelelponi post about the rich young ruler in this thread (below).

The man was not mocking Jesus either, Jesus actually wanted to show the rich young ruler that He was not actually keeping and obeying the Laws that he said he was, or professed to following and keeping and obeying, not inwardly anyway... Again see @Hazelelponi post here (below)...

Jesus adding to the law

God Bless!
Sorry, I got the rich young ruler and the lawyer confused for a second, but the example and @Hazelelponi quoted post is still good though...

And I'm just talking about people who claim to keep and/or perfectly obey all the rules in general, etc...

Or questioned Jesus further, cause they both did, etc...

And neither one was "mocking" Jesus just because of that either, I think Jesus loves people who will dare to question Him further, etc, except with some of the Pharisees maybe, mainly because of their reasons or motivations for doing so, kind of got on Jesus nerves sometimes, etc...

Sorry I got them confused for a second though, my bad...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Sorry, I got the rich young ruler and the lawyer confused for a second, but the example and @Hazelelponi quoted post is still good though...

And I'm just talking about people who claim to keep and/or perfectly obey all the rules in general, etc...

Or questioned Jesus further, cause they both did, etc...

And neither one was "mocking" Jesus just because of that either, I think Jesus loves people who will dare to question Him further, etc, except with some of the Pharisees maybe, mainly because of their reasons or motivations for doing so, kind of got on Jesus nerves sometimes, etc...

Sorry I got them confused for a second though, my bad...

God Bless!
And with the Lawyer, it should maybe read, "seek to endeavor to do this, and/or seek out what this truly means and be doing it/them, and you shall live", or be saved and/or have eternal life, etc...

Cause we all know he was not doing it perfectly at that time that Jesus said it to him, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Hazelelponi said:
Jesus wasn't adding anything..

The Bible makes claims on where sin comes from - it comes from the heart and mind.

Genesis 8:21
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Isaiah 55:7
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

The first commandment is to love the Lord our God with all your heart, soul and strength.

The rich young ruler said he did this - what Jesus shows is that the truth reveals that there IS something he loved more, and therefore failed at actually fulfilling that commandment in its truest sense.

We all fail, not just the ruler, we all fall short of the Glory of God, and the truth of our heart reveals this failure.

The hope we see, was the entire point of the exercise, as Jesus said "With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."

What is impossible for us God will overcome. It's impossible for us to follow the law - because sin is more than action, it's your hearts intent and desire.

We can follow a set of rules, but are we following them when our daydreams are evil continually? It is from man's heart that sin lives, and just washing hands can't cleanse that heart.

It requires direct intervention by God...

So Jesus wasn't adding stuff on, He was showing us what truly following the law means, and what it requires to successfully fulfill it.

Legalism can't cut it, the only way to fix man, is to fix his heart.

Psalm 51:10 "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me."

First, nobody is suggesting that we do not seek forgiveness with Jesus Christ whereby we will receive a new heart with new desires. Most Christians who believe we need Sanctification as a part of Justification are not saying we should not have an unregenerate heart. Surely we must first be born again by God (Which is only possible when we surrender our lives to Him).

Second, this view on Matthew 19 does not say, "We all fail, etc, etc." Those are your words that interjected into the text that does not exist. The whole point of why Jesus said what He did to the rich young ruler was not that it was futile to keep His commandments, but that is exactly what He desired of His disciples to do. Read the end of Matthew 19. It does not sound like Jesus was making a point on the futility of keeping His commands. In fact, He teaching them the exact opposite. For the disciples at that time (not us exactly) He was commanding them to forsake all things as a part of eternal life. To a degree, I believe we as believers need to surrender and or dedicate all things in time to the Lord. Everything we own should be in focus to God's Kingdom. Everything we do should be done as if unto the Lord.

Three, Legalism is a term that goes thrown around a lot falsely. Yet, would you call Jesus a Legalist because He said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments? (Matthew 19:17). Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. I don't know about you, but I would prefer to hear the words of Jesus and follow Him in what He says then to be destroyed. Just because somebody claims to be a believer or they just have a belief in Him alone for salvation (with no visible fruit) does not mean anything to GOD.

Four, the heart is the issue, but I do not think we agree on how that works. Jesus said, "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35). So a person needs to have a new heart whereby they will bring forth only good treasure out of their hearts towards God and others.


Side Note:

I am replying to you here because another poster suggested your post as if it was insightful (of which I do not agree).
 
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Again, you don't know my heart, and life. So you make accusation without any knowledge about me. Again, you are not using Scripture to make your case here. You are going off your experience and not off what the Word of God says, dear sir. I will trust the words of Jesus and seek to always obey them and to follow Jesus. You can go in the other direction of not following Jesus if you want. But I will trust in the Lord.



Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. Are you hearing the Word?
It appears to me that you are rejecting whole chunks of words by Jesus, and you are discouraging others from following Jesus by implying that it is impossible to do what He requires of us.



You are correct. I do not seek to obey the Law of Moses. I believe the 613 laws of Moses was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, and we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Do you believe that?



Try reading again the imputation of Christ's sacrifice to a believer's life in 1 John 1:7. We not only need to have faith in His blood (God's grace) (Romans 3:25), but we also need to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7).



Paul is referring to the Law of Moses when he talked about the engraving on stones because there were no "Ten Commandment" tablets given to us in the New Covenant. God did not give us another set of written words directly like He did with Moses. The New Covenant was established by the working of the Son of God, and His followers, which was then later recorded or written down afterwards.
I know you do not follow all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels, nor do you even try to. Yet you appear to say righteousness before God depends on obeying them.
I have already conclusively shown the law paul referred to as being the ministration of death and condemnation/the letter that kills was the ten commandments. However:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us," so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code Rom7:4-6

You believe the above does not refer to the Ten Commandments/the moral law. Let us see. In the following five verses Paul gave a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law. This is what he wrote:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law was: Thou shalt not covet. One of the Ten Commandments and part of the moral law. Verse 5 confirmed in verse8
 
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I'll make one more attempt to drive my point home about the many defense deceptions used here/elsewhere and as I proved earlier, way way too often, using this one as example. If the Perfectionism doctrine is applied to non OSAS, and you do make your case that obtaining Perfectionism is not possible, then you have in reality, won /done nothing relevant because as far as I know (yet to be seen) non OSAS, never claimed Perfectionism as their thing, I know I didn't. it's simply something that was made up, using the fact we feel it is necessary to obey God/Christ.

The OP implies perfectionism as it does not mention salvation by faith.

The OP implies a belief that salvation is attained through obedience, not faith alone.

I made the point repeatedly that only faith leads to obedience, not obedience on its own. Only faith produces good works anyway, so the right way to go about getting good works is by encouraging faith, not using fear.

There's no deceit in claiming that the OP implies perfectionism. I even said that it might not be the intention, but that's how it comes off.

I'm critiquing the method and its delivery.

How is such a critique deceitful? Is this a forum or a platform? Do people come here to preach, or discuss? I have a right to critique the method and instead of clearing up the miscommunication, you resort to ad hominem and try and discredit me by claiming I'm deceitful.

If perfectionism is not in your or the OP theology, why not say so?

And if it is not, why be so defensive about it? Why not simply say "No, that's not the intention." But instead you just keep defending it, and not politely either.

If perfectionism is your theology, why not say so too?

I don't need to defend my actions as there is no deceit intended, nor do I really ever see value in doing so in a forum as it just distracts from the OP. Either discuss the theology at hand or ignore my posts, as I'm tired of a useless back and forth.
 
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I know you do not follow all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels, nor do you even try to. Yet you appear to say righteousness before God depends on obeying them.
I have already conclusively shown the law paul referred to as being the ministration of death and condemnation/the letter that kills was the ten commandments. However:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us," so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code Rom7:4-6

You believe the above does not refer to the Ten Commandments/the moral law. Let us see. In the following five verses Paul gave a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law. This is what he wrote:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law was: Thou shalt not covet. One of the Ten Commandments and part of the moral law. Verse 5 confirmed in verse8

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."


However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."


However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
I don't read long posts. Despite your attempts to the contrary through copy/pasting, It is quite clear what Paul wrote, believers must die to the law, and the example he gave as to why this was so is: Thou shalt not covet
 
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