The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Kenny'sID]

In order to intelligently answer your question you must answer my question first:

Are you asking how one who is born again of the Spirit and a new creation retains God’s Grace?

Thanks just the same.

 

[Neogaia777]

Simple yes or no question...Since salvation is a free gift, then are you saying we need do nothing to retain it after being saved by grace alone?

Are you saying "we" should be able to "tell" or know for sure among one another or each other?

And what about "all in God's own good timing"?

Are you saying we should be able to tell or judge one another in that aspect also?

Isn't that a little bit "presumptuous" of us?

I'm not saying that true fellowship with Christ and God is not followed up by these things, just that my point is more in and with us being able to tell, and judge, and know, "the heart", (of others, etc) and "God's own good timing with and individual" as well, etc...

But either way, it is not "us" or our own works or will or self-effort or whatever that does it ever, nor "should do it" ever, but only God's and God's alone (will, work, effort, etc) (in and with, and through and with a person, etc)...

To think "anything otherwise" is us claiming to be God, etc... And, we would somehow be getting credit, or glory, for our own saving or salvation, and God says He shares His glory with no one, or no mere man who is just simply just a mere man, etc...

And what do you think God thinks about a man, who is just a mere man, "playing God" or putting himself is God's own place or position or in the place of God...?

To do, or be doing some of these things I am talking about, is to put yourself in the place of God, that belongs only to God and God alone...

How do you think He feels about that...?

We are called to Love, and show people the same kind of "Grace" that God has and does show us in our error (thank God)... Let God be the judge of another person, we are called to Love and give (extend) Grace, etc, the same Grace God shows or extends to us in our error, etc...

Unless you don't think you "need that", then just go ahead and keep judging I guess, but he who deals out his judgment without Grace (Mercy, Love, etc) may not get any back from God maybe, etc... or maybe not if it goes on too long anyway... or regardless/irregardless maybe anyway, etc...

You have (all) been warned...

God Bless!

 

[topher694]

Thanks just the same.

Cop out, but it's always the same, you avoid questions that force you to deal with the truth. We get why you were afraid to answer. Nothing you haven't done before. That's OK I think we can all just assume then, that you were making false claims, and that is the reason you evaded the question. I mean it takes false claims to defend false doctrine. But I've gotta wonder, why even join the discussion if you can't answer a few simple questions directly?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I HAVE ANSWERED ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS BRO that James quote is the first verse you have used in this discussion.... read the entire chapter of James and notice the context. I make false accusations when j cant combat a claim? You havent made a claim! It seems as if youre a faith + works guy. If thats true you deny the books hebrews, Galatians, romans, ephesians and all of the gospels all for one verse in james

I think I already explained, sending me to read a chapter is not an answer, my question was simple, and you simply won't answer it, but thanks anyway...

You havent made a claim! It seems as if youre a faith + works guy.

Can you please clear that up?

Also you didn't answer the question in the post you just replied too either, if that was intentional...thanks again. And if not, here it is in case you missed it.

Then if someone is saved, has a positive lifestyle change then the change goes negative, and they choose to fall back into the world/sin, are they still saved or have they lost their salvation?

One more question to drive my point home:

In the following verse you never responded to, in spite of your wanting me to post scripture....

James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Is a man justified by faith alone, or are works also required?

If you're not going to answer, that's fine, biu the question was to you and the answer needs to come from you, and I'll consider being sent to read scripture as means to avoid answering, just that...avoidance/a refusal to answer. I shouldn't have to explain any of that stuff, the concept of answering a question is pretty clear to most people.

 

[Neogaia777]

Man judges by outward appearance, but only God, "ONLY GOD", knows the heart...

And His own good timing(s) (full overall plans, etc) (in their own good timing(s), etc) (and every single "detail" of those plans, etc) for another person, (in full detail) etc...

We do not, etc, and never do, etc...

God Bless!

 

[timothyu]

You should 100% be obedient to God and his word BUT do not think that obedience can save/justify you

Not without the Kingdom it can't. Jesus' Gospel was the Kingdom.

Christianity took to teaching salvation while ignoring it. Why? Because they were too busy building their own earthly kingdoms to want to show off the hypocrisy.

 

[fwGod]

Do you care less about those in the churches who are habitually sinning?

The phrase "habitually sinning" is a general statement that apparently refers to 'babes in Christ' as well? The term should be changed to excuse the babes in Christ who have not yet reached maturity to even change their spiritual diapers.

For these the apostle John says in 1Jn.5:16-17 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

The only one's who habitually defiantly practice sins without repentance are those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. They are decidedly different from those who've accepted Jesus as their Savior yet they still struggle with addictions or yielding to weaknesses of the flesh.

For such as these the Grace of God abounds toward them for they are truly saved and of whom the Lord knows as His.

News Flash ...
It is very possible for BACs to be deceived into believing in "grace-only"!

Do you really discern who might be doing that? Since you can't tell the habitually sinning babes in Christ from defiantly sinning sinners.

Those who are recently born again Christians, are 'babes in Christ' who are like natural babies who make messes that they have no maturity to control. As with natural children they grow best to maturity without hangups when they are raised by loving yet disciplinary parents. Yet the parent who only gives harsh discipline will really screw up that kid's life.

All Christians are to mature in God's love by practice to have their senses/consciences trained to discern the difference between good and evil (Heb.5:14). To wake unto righteousness and sin not (1Cor.15:34). To overcome all evil with good (Rom.12:21).

Until then, they should be prayed for that their sins be forgiven them.

It's not a fair fight ...
God's still small voice ... VS ... Satan + the flesh + the church!

It is a great burden to be the voice of God to all Christians who follow satan through 'habitually sinning' /your view.

Those of hyper-grace were once under great condemnation by the letter of the law minded preacher, due to their sins so they quickly grabbed the 'life preserver' of that grace, to keep from drowning in the murky water that the letter of the law preached to them had put them in.

The way that you are presenting their wrongs of relying on grace is simply more sin heaped upon the other sins.

Have some mercy and pray for them to not be in one ditch of sin and condemnation or the other ditch of hyper-grace, but to get in the middle of road and and thereby be 'stuck in the middle' with Jesus by whom we can boldly approach the throne of grace to find mercy and help in time of need (Heb.4:16).

 

[timothyu]

There are those Christians or even others who use God to justify their actions, and there are those who change their nature to suit the will of God. Two opposing human forces surrounding the same God. Such is the effect of the knowledge of good and evil. Man can't be depended on to know which is which or want to be told accordingly.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Since salvation is a free gift, then are you saying we need do nothing to retain it after being saved by grace alone?

My answer is yes.

Here is what Jesus says must be done by us (remember you just said we need do nothing) and on top of that, what will happen to us if we do the opposite of good, evil.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So since you say we need do nothing and Jesus clearly says we must do good, does that mean, you're saying we need do nothing, includes we need not do as Christ said or be obedient to him? Or that Jesus was simply wrong and you're right? Or both?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Are you saying "we" should be able to "tell" or know for sure among one another or each other?

And what about "all in God's own good timing"?

Are you saying we should be able to tell or judge one another in that aspect also?

Isn't that a little bit "presumptuous" of us?

I'm not saying that true fellowship with Christ and God is not followed up by these things, just that my point is more in and with us being able to tell, and judge, and know, "the heart", (of others, etc) and "God's own good timing with and individual" as well, etc...

But either way, it is not "us" or our own works or will or self-effort or whatever that does it ever, nor "should do it" ever, but only God's and God's alone (will, work, effort, etc) (in and with, and through and with a person, etc)...

To think "anything otherwise" is us claiming to be God, etc... And, we would somehow be getting credit, or glory, for our own saving or salvation, and God says He shares His glory with no one, or no mere man who is just simply just a mere man, etc...

And what do you think God thinks about a man, who is just a mere man, "playing God" or putting himself is God's own place or position or in the place of God...?

To do, or be doing some of these things I am talking about, is to put yourself in the place of God, that belongs only to God and God alone...

How do you think He feels about that...?

We are called to Love, and show people the same kind of "Grace" that God has and does show us in our error (thank God)... Let God be the judge of another person, we are called to Love and give (extend) Grace, etc, the same Grace God shows or extends to us in our error, etc...

Unless you don't think you "need that", then just go ahead and keep judging I guess, but he who deals out his judgment without Grace (Mercy, Love, etc) may not get any back from God maybe, etc... or maybe not if it goes on too long anyway... or regardless/irregardless maybe anyway, etc...

You have (all) been warned...

No, you are pretending my question is another question....again, so it's clear you choose not to answer any questions either. Thanks once again

 

[Neogaia777]

Here is what Jesus says must be done by us (remember you just said we need do nothing) and on top of that, what will happen to us if we do the opposite of good, evil.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So since you say we need do nothing and Jesus clearly says we must do good, does that mean, you're saying we need do nothing, includes we need not do as Christ said or be obedient to him? Or that Jesus was simply wrong and you're right? Or both?

Only we do not do it, and those who think we or they do, are actually not doing it, etc, and are even a much worse sinner, etc...

Self-deceived, etc...

Have fallen into a trap, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There are those Christians or even others who use God to justify their actions, and there are those who change their nature to suit the will of God. Two opposing human forces surrounding the same God. Such is the effect of the knowledge of good and evil. Man can't be depended on to know which is which or want to be told accordingly.

"We" change our nature...?

God Bless!

 

[HatGuy]

Here is what Jesus says must be done by us (remember you just said we need do nothing) and on top of that, what will happen to us if we do the opposite of good, evil.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So since you say we need do nothing and Jesus clearly says we must do good, does that mean, you're saying we need do nothing, includes we need not do as Christ said or be obedient to him? Or that Jesus was simply wrong and you're right? Or both?

Did you see the rest of the post? It answers your question.

The scripture you quoted also hints at what I said in the previous post - note the few verses above it.

24 Amen, Amen, I tell you: Anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He is not going to come into judgment but has crossed over from death to life.

25 “Amen, Amen, I tell you: A time is coming and is here now when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out. Those who have done good will rise to live, but those who have practiced evil will rise to be condemned. 30 I can do nothing at all on my own. I judge only as I hear. And my judgment is just, for I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Jesus first establishes the principle of faith (vs 24), then the importance of listening to his words (vs 25) and then good works follow (vs 28).

This order is exactly as I outlayed when I answered the question. Faith creates good works. We don't do anything to retain salvation. Note in vs 24 there are no ifs or buts. Vs 28 does not read in this context as a threat but as a matter of fact - those who cross over from death to life listen and do good works.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, you are pretending my question is another question....again, so it's clear you choose not to answer any questions either. Thanks once again

I did directly answer your question actually, but you missed it.

Must not have even read my whole post I guess...?

Oh well...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

The phrase "habitually sinning" is a general statement that apparently refers to 'babes in Christ' as well? The term should be changed to excuse the babes in Christ who have not yet reached maturity to even change their spiritual diapers.

Nearly positive he doesn't mean babies, but those who make a habit (habitually) of doing the most basic of sins, living in those sins and such.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Did you see the rest of the post? It answers your question.

The scripture you quoted also hints at what I said in the previous post - note the few verses above it.

24 Amen, Amen, I tell you: Anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He is not going to come into judgment but has crossed over from death to life.

25 “Amen, Amen, I tell you: A time is coming and is here now when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out. Those who have done good will rise to live, but those who have practiced evil will rise to be condemned. 30 I can do nothing at all on my own. I judge only as I hear. And my judgment is just, for I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Jesus first establishes the principle of faith (vs 24), then the importance of listening to his words (vs 25) and then good works follow (vs 28).

This order is exactly as I outlayed when I answered the question. Faith creates good works. We don't do anything to retain salvation. Note in vs 24 there are no ifs or buts. Vs 28 does not read in this context as a threat but as a matter of fact - those who cross over from death to life listen and do good works.

You all are making it impossible to know what you are saying, that is why I ask all the simple question that cut right to the chase, yet you refuse to answer them.

You said we need do nothing, and Jesus said we need do good or else. So since you refuse to answer when I questioned you on that, I'm afraid I'm going to have to Go with Jesus on this one.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I did directly answer your question actually, but you missed it.

Must not have even read my whole post I guess...?

Oh well...

God Bless!

Show me.

Only we do not do it, and those who think we or they do, are actually not doing it, etc, and are even a much worse sinner, etc...

Do not do what? I don't understand that post, unless you are actually saying Christ is expecting more from us than we can do, and we are all going to hell?

 

[fwGod]

Nearly positive he doesn't mean babies, but those who make a habit (habitually) of doing the most basic of sins, living in those sins and such.

Who are you speaking of.. the Christians who struggle with sin? Who hasn't? Or, is some Christian among us so mature that they do not sin on any topic?

 

[HatGuy]

You all are making it impossible to know what you are saying, that is why I ask all the simple question that cut right to the chase, yet you refuse to answer them.

You said we need do nothing, and Jesus said we need do good or else. So since you refuse to answer when I questioned you on that, I'm afraid I'm going to have to Go with Jesus on this one.

Show me where Jesus said "do good, or else." That was not in the scripture you posted.

Provide a counter exegesis on John 5:24-29 - perhaps that would help.

Show me how faith does not produce good works.

Unless you can prove with scripture and reason your position, I find your position unbiblical and have zero reason to believe it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Cop out, but it's always the same, you avoid questions that force you to deal with the truth. We get why you were afraid to answer. Nothing you haven't done before. That's OK I think we can all just assume then, that you were making false claims, and that is the reason you evaded the question. I mean it takes false claims to defend false doctrine. But I've gotta wonder, why even join the discussion if you can't answer a few simple questions directly?

LOL

What questions? Show me.