You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[CharismaticLady]

Imputed righteousness.

Is that all? Abraham obeyed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness.

What I don't agree with is the twisted way that some denominations teach imputed righteousness. It certainly doesn't match what Paul meant.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The spiritual man still sins. But the spiritual man is repentant.

What kind of sins? Sins unto death, or sins not unto death? Or both?

 

[tdidymas]

That depends on how far you take being kept. Does it mean that "when you sin God only 'sees' righteousness because Jesus blood covers us while we sin" that is heresy. But if you mean that Jesus places His Spirit in us so we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law and hate even the thought of sin, then I agree. In fact, our true assurance is written in 1 John 3:18-24

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Ok, so I get that your post is not really against OSAS, according to your response here, but rather your OP is really against antinomianism. I get it. And yes, I believe in the power and anointing of the Spirit. The verse after all says "kept by the power of God..." which means real power, not some vain fantasy. And yes, it means keeping us in a way that we are keeping God's commandments. After all, God works through us, doesn't He? Isn't this the working of the true gospel? With this in mind, do you still think OSAS (according to this definition) is heresy?
TD

 

[Hammster]

Is that all? Abraham obeyed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness.

What I don't agree with is the twisted way that some denominations teach imputed righteousness. It certainly doesn't match what Paul meant.

That’s fine. I’m not for twisted teaching myself. But Paul taught that our righteousness is not our own, but Christ’s.

 

[Hammster]

What kind of sins? Sins unto death, or sins not unto death? Or both?

Any sin. The Father disciplines His children. Sometimes the discipline is more severe than other times.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ok, so I get that your post is not really against OSAS, according to your response here, but rather your OP is really against antinomianism. I get it. And yes, I believe in the power and anointing of the Spirit. The verse after all says "kept by the power of God..." which means real power, not some vain fantasy. And yes, it means keeping us in a way that we are keeping God's commandments. After all, God works through us, doesn't He? Isn't this the working of the true gospel? With this in mind, do you still think OSAS (according to this definition) is heresy?
TD

When denominations mix OSAS with antinomianism, that is heresy, and I've seen people of the forums say their spirit is saved, but their flesh isn't.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That’s fine. I’m not for twisted teaching myself. But Paul taught that our righteousness is not our own, but Christ’s.

It is all Christ's doing. We must be born again and receive a new nature. Our only part in that process is repentance. The old sinful carnal nature Jesus kills, and gives us a new nature that loves what Jesus loves, and hates what Jesus hates.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Any sin. The Father disciplines His children. Sometimes the discipline is more severe than other times.

This is where we part ways. Both the old and new testaments show the difference between intentional (willful) sins, and unintentional sins. Intentional willful sins against God's laws are sins unto death, and a Christian doesn't have the nature to commit those. 1 John 3:1-9. We are born again and are now partakers of the divine nature. This is why only our past sins were forgiven when we came to Jesus. (the teaching of present and future sins also is part of the heresy)

 

[Mark Quayle]

That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

Did you read all of John? How about the rest of the Bible?

--from John 6
"39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Halbhh]

Who is responsible for us bearing fruit? It looks to me to be the Vinedresser.

Yes.

And. We must to "remain in" Him, so that we do bear fruit and aren't cut off and "gathered and burned". Or really, one needs to truly read every verse to get all of it. 1 through 17.

That way, we get verse 7 for example.

That total listening, through the entire things He is saying.

Imagine:

If one of us were there in person, listening, we wouldn't get up after a couple of sentences and leave.

:=)

 

[Hammster]

This is where we part ways. Both the old and new testaments show the difference between intentional (willful) sins, and unintentional sins. Intentional willful sins against God's laws are sins unto death, and a Christian doesn't have the nature to commit those. 1 John 3:1-9. We are born again and are now partakers of the divine nature. This is why only our past sins were forgiven when we came to Jesus. (the teaching of present and future sins also is part of the heresy)

You are somehow misguided. Every sin is intentional. Every sin is forgiven for those in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Yes.

And. We must to "remain in" Him, so that we do bear fruit and aren't cut off and "gathered and burned". Or really, one needs to truly read every verse to get all of it. 1 through 17.

That way, we get verse 7 for example.

That total listening, through the entire things He is saying.

Imagine:

If one of us were there in person, listening, we wouldn't get up after a couple of sentences and leave.

:=)

Then don’t just read...also understand. The Vinedresser is responsible for us bearing fruit. You’ve made it into us doing something to bear fruit. That’s not what’s being taught in 15.

 

[Halbhh]

Then don’t just read...also understand. The Vinedresser is responsible for us bearing fruit. You’ve made it into us doing something to bear fruit. That’s not what’s being taught in 15.

Ah!

You imagine I'd make that mistake??

Wow, do you believe 0% of things I've said about truly listening to full passages then?

Ok. I can't make you know me. You'd have to try to or something.

Here's a chance on this part:

We have zero power to cause ourselves to bear good fruit.

Zero.

But, we do have, by the holy Words of Christ Jesus, a choice to make -- to remain in Him.

I hope you'll get that, so you won't imagine me believing totally differently than I do.

There's just no better wording than the entirety of all 17 verses though.

I can only hope people will listen to them all.

 

[pasifika]

Yes.

And. We must to "remain in" Him, so that we do bear fruit and aren't cut off and "gathered and burned". Or really, one needs to truly read every verse to get all of it. 1 through 17.

That way, we get verse 7 for example.

That total listening, through the entire things He is saying.

Imagine:

If one of us were there in person, listening, we wouldn't get up after a couple of sentences and leave.

:=)

Hello, when you read verse 5 of John 15, will give you the answer....is not the responsibility of the "branch" to continue remain in the "vine" but is the vines responsibility to make the branch remain to Him (vine)...

John 15:5..."I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; Apart from Me you can DO NOTHING...

SO, reading this gives us the "branches" the knowledge that in order to: (1)remain in the vine (Christ)...
(2) bear fruit....
Is entirely the responsibility of the vine or "Christ"...

Again without Christ We Can Do NOTHING...neither connecting to Him nor Bear His life in Ours...

 

[Halbhh]

Hello, when you read verse 5 of John 15, will give you the answer....is not the responsibility of the "branch" to continue remain in the "vine" but is the vines responsibility to make the branch remain to Him (vine)...

John 15:5..."I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; Apart from Me you can DO NOTHING...

SO, reading this gives us the "branches" the knowledge that in order to: (1)remain in the vine (Christ)...
(2) bear fruit....
Is entirely the responsibility of the vine or "Christ"...

Again without Christ We Can Do NOTHING...neither connecting to Him nor Bear His life in Ours...

It appears you believe exactly as I do.

(did you hear me?)

Very often on the internet, people seem to have little ability to guess correctly what others think.

That makes sense. We aren't omniscient.

Too often, I fear, these discussions are like this: people...well, arguing against positions that other people don't actually have!

But... I do have something to say, or rather He has something: there is more than only 1 message in John chapter 15, of course. Even in the first passage, verses 1-17, there is more than only 1 message.

He has something to say, to us.

We need to really listen.

That's all I'm trying to remind people about.

We accomplish it 0% from ourselves. It isn't us that makes the good fruit happen.

(sorry for repeating myself on this over and over and over, but I keep hoping people will hear me that way)

But...there is a choice, still. God is like that -- higher than us, His thoughts higher than ours.

Have a good night! May God keep you close.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Did you read all of John? How about the rest of the Bible?

--from John 6
"39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I'm curious if you understood all of John. There is a key phrase that is in your quote in John 6. It has been misapplied to all believers, but it isn't. The phrase is "He has given Me." When those words are used, John is referring to His predestined apostles. After that he talks of those who believe their words.

I'm sure your denominations uses this next one to base their OSAS on. But if you open your spirit you will plainly see it refers to the apostles, except Judas.

John 10:
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 17:
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Not everyone is predestined either. Israel was predestined to be God's chosen people, but we know that doesn't mean they will all obey and be saved. That destroys another myth on the doctrine of predestination of all believers, calling them His elect. And out of Israel, it is the apostles that first believed that are also predestined, and given to Jesus by the Father.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Ephesians 1:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm curious if you understood all of John. There is a key phrase that is in your quote in John 6. It has been misapplied to all believers, but it isn't. The phrase is "He has given Me." When those words are used, John is referring to His predestined apostles. After that he talks of those who believe their words.

I'm sure your denominations uses this next one to base their OSAS on. But if you open your spirit you will plainly see it refers to the apostles, except Judas.

John 10:
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 17:
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Not everyone is predestined either. Israel was predestined to be God's chosen people, but we know that doesn't mean they will all obey and be saved. That destroys another myth on the doctrine of predestination of all believers, calling them His elect. And out of Israel, it is the apostles that first believed that are also predestined, and given to Jesus by the Father.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Ephesians 1:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

FWIW, I don't like OSAS. It implies to too many people too much that is contrary to Scriptures. The firm hold God has on his Elect is, nevertheless, not according to their will, but his. He has no plan B.

Also, "Reformed" is not a denomination. In addition to that, I am Reformed only by virtue of that theology generally describing what I believe. I am not a representative of that, as such. I just like it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are somehow misguided. Every sin is intentional. Every sin is forgiven for those in Christ.

I'm not the one who doesn't understand how God sees the difference. You are parroting a doctrine and not studying on your own.

A willful sin of lawlessness is against God's laws. It is a sin unto death. An unintentional sin is covered by the blood of Jesus if they are walking in the Spirit. It is called a 'trespass.' Trespasses are sins against each other, not God, Himself.

Numbers 15:27-30 (There was sacrifice to cover unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sins; they were put to death.

27 If any of you sin unintentionally, you are to offer a one-year-old female goat as a sin offering. 28 At the altar the priest shall perform the ritual of purification to purify you from your sin, and you will be forgiven. 29 The same regulation applies to all who unintentionally commit a sin, whether they are native Israelites or resident foreigners.

30 But any who sin deliberately (willfully), whether they are natives or foreigners, are guilty of treating the Lord with contempt, and they shall be put to death,

 

[CharismaticLady]

FWIW, I don't like OSAS. It implies to too many people too much that is contrary to Scriptures. The firm hold God has on his Elect is, nevertheless, not according to their will, but his. He has no plan B.

Also, "Reformed" is not a denomination. In addition to that, I am Reformed only by virtue of that theology generally describing what I believe. I am not a representative of that, as such. I just like it.

If you were a Jewish apostle, then the Reformed beliefs would apply to you; but since we aren't, then they are misapplied - such as

predestined
can never lose our salvation (snatch out of His hand)
limited atonement

Don't forget sometime we "like" what our carnal nature desires. What you like may be just what false teachers are teaching that is pleasing to your lifestyle.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you were a Jewish apostle, then the Reformed beliefs would apply to you; but since we aren't, then they are misapplied - such as

predestined
can never lose our salvation (snatch out of His hand)
limited atonement

Don't forget sometime we "like" what our carnal nature desires. What you like may be just what false teachers are teaching that is pleasing to your lifestyle.

Does it make sense to you that we should be able to undo what God has planned? In a sense, we don't know who is elect til we meet him. The fact of salvation is not real, if that is not ours. If we are saved --we will indeed be with him eternally.