How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

[1Reformedman]

God gives us the grace to be able to make a truly free decision to bind ourselves to him. That's what faith is: an act of the will by which we freely adhere to God, who has revealed himself to us. You appear to be falsely pitting grace against faith.

When is one's will free to make that decision? Before or after regeneration?

 

[1Reformedman]

Grace has no conditions to meet. If it does it changes into law.

Correct Dave, because Grace means FAVOR that cannot be earned.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God gives us the grace to be able to make a truly free decision to bind ourselves to him. That's what faith is: an act of the will by which we freely adhere to God, who has revealed himself to us. You appear to be falsely pitting grace against faith.

To whom are you responding here?

 

[1Reformedman]

Correct Dave, because Grace means FAVOR that cannot be earned.

Hey was that you who just sent me the message about this thread on the other forum?

 

[1Reformedman]

.

 

[1Reformedman]

God gives us the grace to be able to make a truly free decision to bind ourselves to him. That's what faith is: an act of the will by which we freely adhere to God, who has revealed himself to us. You appear to be falsely pitting grace against faith.

uh saving faith is the result of God's saving Grace, not the cause.

 

[Mark Quayle]

They see the gospel as law. And law cannot save.

I like that. Well put.

Even when they respond emotionally to the heart's recognition of the goodness of God, they still have not met the horror of their sin, and so do not understand the goodness.

Any way I hear conversion stories, any way I envision or arrange the heart's response to the Gospel, I cannot find a legitimate reason why MY decision is the turning point. We love him BECAUSE he first loved us. It is a result, and not even a grateful response intellectually decided at experiencing his love, but rather the act of a changed heart. Simple.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Free-will....there is a difference between having the ability to choose Jesus as ones Lord and Savior (salvation) and choosing which pair of sox to wear that day.

True that/ but for the fact that our choosing is not salvation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hey was that you who just sent me the message about this thread on the other forum?

No, it was me.

 

[chilehed]

When is one's will free to make that decision?

When God provides the grace to make it so.

To whom are you responding here?

The OP, who seems to be drawing a false opposition between grace and free will.

 

[1Reformedman]

No, it was me.

whats up!! I did not know you were here. Cool beans!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

All souls have free will to choose salvation or reject it. That is the foundational free will.

Even from an atheistic point of view, that is illogical. You seem to be claiming sovereignty, which no reasonable person can claim after thinking a bit.

First: We are all influenced in one way or another by our surroundings, our nature, etc.
Second: Logically, for multiple persons to be sovereign is self-contradictory.
Third: For any one person to be absolutely sovereign, is to be causeless First Cause. Otherwise, they can only claim to be subject to chance, which is self-contradictory by definition of "chance".

 

[1Reformedman]

When God provides the grace to make it so.

The OP, who seems to be drawing a false opposition between grace and free will.

I doubt that Dave is doing any such thing. Question. What theological views do you hold?

 

[Halbhh]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

The term "free will" isn't typically being used to refer to the gift and transformation such as freedom in Christ.

Instead what most people mean to refer to with the words "free will" is to say God made us at least in part actually able to choose some things -- instead of us being similar to puppets or robots. That we are not controlled, and we are not fated.

Free Will :the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate

 

[Mark Quayle]

whats up!! I did not know you were here. Cool beans!!

Paulo also posts here from time to time, though mostly on the atheist accessible forum. If you go there, be careful --they are quick to report virulent expression.

 

[chilehed]

uh saving faith is the result of God's saving Grace, not the cause.

I didn't say anything that sounds remotely otherwise.

 

[1Reformedman]

The term "free will" isn't typically being used to refer to the gift and transformation such as freedom in Christ.

Instead what most people mean to refer to with the words "free will" is to say God made us at least in part actually able to choose some things -- instead of us being similar to puppets or robots. That we are not controlled, and we are not fated.

Free Will :the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate

well here's the problem I see with that argument. The bible says the lost one cant understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14), his mind is not subject to the law of God and indeed it can't be so subject (Romans 8:7-8). So, since his mind is not subject to the law of God and he cannot understand spiritual things wherein the lost one's natural moral ability does he find the spiritual ability to choose Christ while he is still IN BONDAGE to the old nature which has been radically corrupted by sin?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I didn't say anything that sounds remotely otherwise.

As to your St Francis quote (and I assume you agree with him in some respect), his presumptions seems to be that God wouldn't allow the church to wander in error for centuries --or at least, if it did, what makes anyone who disagrees with the church's precepts possibly reliable? His logic seems a bit off to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism teaches that ALL SHOULD Believe, but that only the regenerated will believe.

Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense.
Should denotes a possibility.

 

[MDC]

I disagree with that claim. Reformed people (who you refer to as Calvinists) and non-Reformed people (who you refer to as Arminianists) do not teach two different gospels, nor do they have two different Gods (there's only 1). Both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. There is ONE main difference between the two theologies and that is they heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Really? Well I completely disagree with your opinion.