BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Der Alte]

Well they claim (or he claims) it's literal. I've never read it myself and can't vouch for it, much less am I deciding it is the end all, be all authority. On the other hand though, I might be impressed (not that you care, right..) if you could bring forth a Bible translation without any universalist verses.

I don't know of any Bible that has Universalist verses. I might consider UR if anyone can show me any verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself state unequivocally that all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike. I have already posted several verses where Jesus is speaking verses like "these shall go away into eternal punishment." and I cannot find one single verse where Jesus said anything that even suggests UR.

 

[Jord Simcha]

I don't know of any Bible that has Universalist verses. I might consider UR if anyone can show me any verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself state unequivocally that all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike. I have already posted several verses where Jesus is speaking verses like "these shall go away into eternal punishment." and I cannot find one single verse where Jesus said anything that even suggests UR.

If you disagree that Colossians 1:20 for example is a universalist verse then I'm still curious how you explain it without diverting the discussion towards a hell verse.

I believe none are righteous. When God says all He doesn't need to specify.

Eternal in your quote might be mistranslated. I refer to Jonah 2:6, forever and eternal might not always be forever and eternal in the English translations.

 

[FineLinen]

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.____________________________________________?

2.____________________________________________?

3.____________________________________________?

4.____________________________________________?

5.____________________________________________?

“I see Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.” - Mother Teresa

 

[Der Alte]

If you disagree that Colossians 1:20 for example is a universalist verse then I'm still curious how you explain it without diverting the discussion towards a hell verse.
I believe none are righteous. When God says all He doesn't need to specify.
Eternal in your quote might be mistranslated. I refer to Jonah 2:6, forever and eternal might not always be forever and eternal in the English translations.

.....I have addressed your proof texts in this thread and they were mostly ignored.
As for "eternal might be mistranslated". I have done a study of the words aion/aionios, translated eternity/eternal in this thread my post [#668], [<link]this thread. And using only Bible verses I show that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal.
I have also done a similar study on olam and ad in the OT.
.....Now about those verses where aion refers to something that is not eternity or aionios refers to something that is not eternal?
.....Have you ever heard someone say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse?" or "That person is as big as a house?" That is called hyperbole using exaggeration for emphasis.
.....When Jonah was inside the whale was Jonah speaking "Thus saith the Lord?" Or was he a man on the verge of death, crying out in panic? Would a man in that situation be thinking logically? Might Jonah's time inside the whale expecting to die seem like an eternity to him?
.....That verse in Jonah which is Hebrew is not a good choice for trying to prove that Greek words in the NT translated eternity/eternal are mistranslated.
.....Colossians 1:20 states Jesus' purpose "to reconcile" and we both know that everyone is not reconciled in this life. Also there is not one single verse which states unequivocally that anyone will be reconciled after death.
.....See my post [#680][<link] this thread where Paul who wrote Colossians states in three different letters there are many people who have no part in the kingdom of heaven. How can Paul mean in one verse everyone will be reconciled and say in 3 other verses that many people have no part in the kingdom of God?
.....ETA: From post #680 [link above] where I address your proof text Col 1;20
Col 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc.
The converse of vs. 23 is “if you do NOT continue in your faith NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20]

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: It is wonderful to hear how "quite" obvious our Father's word is. It does not require an anointing of the Holy Spirit, just read?

Your two questions=

1. Are you one of the ones who are identified as an overcomer in the Revelation?

2. What does it mean to be "hurt" by the Second Death?

1. Yes! God makes the decision, though.
2. It means you won't be touched by it---you won't die.

 

[Jord Simcha]

I have addressed your proof texts in this thread and they were mostly ignored.
As for "eternal might be mistranslated". I have done a study of the words aion/aionios, translated eternity/eternal in this thread my post [#668], [<link]this thread. And using only Bible verses I show that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal.
I have also done a similar study on olam and ad in the OT.
How about those verses where aion refers to something that is not eternity or aionios refers to something that is not eternal?
Have you ever heard someone say "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse?" or "That person is as big as a house?" That is called hyperbole using exaggeration for emphasis.
When Jonah was inside the whale was Jonah speaking "Thus saith the Lord?" Or was he a man on the verge of death, crying out in panic? Would a man in that situation be thinking logically? Might Jonah's time inside the whale expecting to die seem like an eternity to him?
That verse in Jonah which is Hebrew is not a good choice for trying to prove that Greek words in the NT translated eternity/eternal are mistranslated.
Colossians 1:20 states Jesus' purpose "to reconcile" and we both know that everyone is not reconciled in this life. Also there is not one single verse which states unequivocally that anyone will be reconciled after death.
See my post [#680][<link] this thread where Paul who wrote Colossians states in three different letters there are many people who have no part in the kingdom of heaven. How can Paul mean in one verse everyone will be reconciled and say in 3 other verses that many people have no part in the kingdom of God?
ETA: From post 280 where I address your proof text Col 1;20
Col 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc.
The converse of vs. 23 “if you do NOT continue in your faith NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20][/color]

I addressed most of your points.

As far as you saying hyperbole concerning's Jonah's eternity, can't this be true of the damnation as well then?

I believe Revelation 22:17 is proof that salvation after death is possible. My interpretation of the Bible is that they that are saved have drunk of this water already and shall not thirst again, so it must be the unsaved that are invited.

You are right that there are conditions to being saved. You have to have faith. I believe that's what we'll be telling the unsaved during and/or after the lake of fire.

I didn't mean to mix up the Hebrew and Greek words, but as far as I understand the meanings of both ohlam and aion(ios) are the same and both ambiguous, as in that they mean either eternal or age-lasting, the latter being a secondary meaning. The genius of God's word perhaps that it is ambiguous.

 

[Der Alte]

I addressed most of your points.
As far as you saying hyperbole concerning's Jonah's eternity, can't this be true of the damnation as well then?
I believe Revelation 22:17 is proof that salvation after death is possible. My interpretation of the Bible is that they that are saved have drunk of this water already and shall not thirst again, so it must be the unsaved that are invited.
You are right that there are conditions to being saved. You have to have faith. I believe that's what we'll be telling the unsaved during and/or after the lake of fire.
I didn't mean to mix up the Hebrew and Greek words, but as far as I understand the meanings of both ohlam and aion(ios) are the same and both ambiguous, as in that they mean either eternal or age-lasting, the latter being a secondary meaning. The genius of God's word perhaps that it is ambiguous.

No you did not address most of my points.
When God, Himself and/or Jesus, Himself, is speaking about man's eternal fate they do not use hyperbole.
I addressed Rev 22;17 at length and proved you wrong in my previous post, you ignored it.
So you think dead people will be running around evangelizing after they die? That contradicts Jesus who said the night comes when no man can work.
Lots of people make up their own interpretations and meanings for what the Bible says as you are doing..
I could prove from scripture that olam and ad both mean eternal/eternity but you would ignore it as you did my study of aion/aionios. "Age lasting" is not even a word anywhere but in writings by UR-ites.

 

[Jord Simcha]

No you did not address most of my points.
When God, Himself and/or Jesus, Himself, is speaking about man's eternal fate they do not use hyperbole.
I addressed Rev 22;17 at length and proved you wrong in my previous post, you ignored it.
So you think dead people will be running around evangelizing after they die? That contradicts Jesus who said the night comes when no man can work.
Lots of people make up their own interpretations and meanings for what the Bible says as you are doing..
I could prove from scripture that olam and ad both mean eternal/eternity but you would ignore it as you did my study of aion/aionios. "Age lasting" is not even a word anywhere but in writings by UR-ites.

You didn't prove me wrong; you evaded several questions, like, who else would the Bride of Christ be inviting to drink of the water, etc.

Will you be dead during the judgment? I certainly don't think I will be. Or after.

A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org is a source that agrees on aionion with me but isn't UR-ite.

 

[Der Alte]

You didn't prove me wrong; you evaded several questions, like, who else would the Bride of Christ be inviting to drink of the water, etc.
Will you be dead during the judgment? I certainly don't think I will be. Or after.
A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org is a source that agrees on aionion with me but isn't UR-ite.

No CARM does not agree with you CARM says it does mean eternal in many verses. You claim it always means age -lasting.
I don't see anyone called the bride of Christ in Revelation.
So you think that Christians will be running around evangelizing during the judgement? That contradicts Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die after this the judgement. No evangelizing between death and judgement.

 

[mmksparbud]

You didn't prove me wrong; you evaded several questions, like, who else would the Bride of Christ be inviting to drink of the water, etc.

Will you be dead during the judgment? I certainly don't think I will be. Or after.

A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org is a source that agrees on aionion with me but isn't UR-ite.

Nobody will be dead during the judgement---the 2nd death occurs after judgement and is for the wicked. Jesus returns for the saved only. That is the 1st resurrection. Those of the 1st resurrection will not be in the 2nd death in the lake of fire.

 

[Jord Simcha]

No CARM does not agree with you CARM says it does mean eternal in many verses.

False. He agrees that it's ambiguous. (then goes on to claim what you say, like I said, not an UR-ite)

Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.

To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is

"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right.

You claim it always means age -lasting.

False again. I specificly said it was the secondary meaning.

I don't see anyone called the bride of Christ in Revelation.

Is that an indication you don't read my posts...? Again, Revelation 22:17

So you think that Christians will be running around evangelizing during the judgement? That contradicts Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die after this the judgement. No evangelizing between death and judgement.

death, judgement, lake of fire, gospel

 

[Jord Simcha]

Pretty long read on aionios: Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

 

[FineLinen]

1. Yes! God makes the decision, though.
2. It means you won't be touched by it---you won't die.

God our Father does indeed make the decision of who among His chosen qualifies as an overcomer, AKA a follower of the Lamb in the whithersoever.

Being "hurt" by the Lake of all lakes, however, is a present tense experience for those elect ones who die over and over and over again>>>>"I die daily."

Only the overcomer is NOT hurt by the Lake: they have already been hurt daily.

 

[FineLinen]

"After all, even though we all die, and we're all like water being spilled on the ground that cannot be recovered, nevertheless God doesn't take away life, but carries out His plans so as not to cast away permanently from Him those who are presently estranged."

“The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the ‘final perfection’ yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God.” –V. Gelesnoff

Make zero mistake: our God swallows death, all thanatos in victory!

 

[mmksparbud]

God our Father does indeed make the decision of who among His chosen qualifies as an overcomer, AKA a follower of the Lamb in the whithersoever.

Being "hurt" by the Lake of all lakes, however, is a present tense experience for those elect ones who die over and over and over again>>>>"I die daily."

Only the overcomer is NOT hurt by the Lake: they have already been hurt daily.

The 2nd death is just that---the 2nd death. It is not a forced 2nd life or anything else----death---cease to exist.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The false gospels are more popular in the world than the truth is - it tickles their ears....

The 2nd death is just that---the 2nd death. It is not a forced 2nd life or anything else----death---cease to exist.

Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those ... - Bible Hub
Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those workers of evil, those mutilators of the flesh!
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. of dogs. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Isaiah 56:10,11 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber…

 

[FineLinen]

The 2nd death is just that---the 2nd death. It is not a forced 2nd life or anything else----death---cease to exist.

Not "just that" in the slightest degree. The Lake of Theos radiates with theion and theioo. All death is swallowed up in Life, His Life.

"All of us must die eventually. Our lives are like water spilled out on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God does not just sweep life away; instead, He devises ways to bring us back when we have been separated from Him."

 

[mmksparbud]

Not "just that" in the slightest degree. The Lake of Theos radiates with theion and theioo. All death is swallowed up in Life, His Life.

"All of us must die eventually. Our lives are like water spilled out on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God does not just sweep life away; instead, He devises ways to bring us back when we have been separated from Him."

You can believe whatever you wish. Death is still death. You don't make the decisions, God does. He said the 2nd death. His word is what matters and what He says ---- is. He doesn't lie or tell 1/2 truths.

You listen to mans' ideas, not God's truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But God does not just sweep life away; instead, He devises ways to bring us back when we have been separated from Him."

But those who preach or teach or bring a false gospel he does indeed and in truth sweep away, forever gone, accursed for the false gospel, and more severely for all the deception to others, causing even just one child to slip, brings severe punishment to those who share the false gospel, and not life. No resurrection with Jesus. Only resurrection to judgment, and condemned already for their unbelief, as written.

 

[FineLinen]

You can believe whatever you wish. Death is still death. You don't make the decisions, God does. He said the 2nd death. His word is what matters and what He says ---- is. He doesn't lie or tell 1/2 truths.

You listen to mans' ideas, not God's truth.

My dear lady: When you were a wee girl of 7 the Lord Jesus Christ first touched me with His love and grace. Little did I know then the expansive dimensions where He dwells in the outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable unknown. I still cannot define Pi to the last digit. The Author & Finisher of Pi can only be known by ephphatha. Our blind eyes & deaf ears must be opened.

"After all, even though we all die, and we're all like water being spilled on the ground that cannot be recovered, nevertheless God doesn't take away life, but carries out his plans so as not to cast away permanently from him those who are presently estranged."