Michael the Arch Angel = Jesus??? Again. Sorry!!!

[mmksparbud]

Hello, the bible writers you referring to is Moses, Joshua?

Mostly the OT writers, and it always depends on context, of course. The term is used in the NT, and does not refer to Jesus then. It is not the same, obviously, as when it says, the Lord sent an angel.
You have to see the whole passage---such as:

1Ch_21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

the angel of the Lord in this instance is the angel that God had sent. If it says the angel of the Lord said something and then says God said---it is Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

let me state what my view is so you can see where I am coming from. maybe that will help. I grew up an SDA. I went to SDA schools, hold a degree in SDA theology. 13 years ago I started reading the history and came up against some problems that made me take a new look at what I had been taught. In 2011 I went to an evangelical church and the preached on Daniel 10. It was the first time I saw that maybe i MIGHT be in correct about Michael the Arch angel, being Jesus. After some review of the material. I came to the conclusion that he was not and I had been taught incorrectly so I dropped it. then about 6 weeks ago some one pointed out to me that my conclusion were incorrect. that vision of the man in Daniel 10 and the speaker to Daniel, may not be the same person. I had concluded that they were the same person and concluded that if they were then Michael could not be Jesus, because you cannot have Jesus help Jesus in that passage. The problem is that the speaker may not be the man in the vision so it might not disprove Jesus being Michael . My question is about the grammar, of the speaker in Daniel 10, does it indicate that they are the same person or different people, I do not know.

I believe Daniel was conversing with Gabriel. God is consistent. It was Gabriel and Daniel most of the time, so I still believe it is Gabriel. He doesn't seem to indicate it is a different person than spoke to him before.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

 

[ChetSinger]

let me state what my view is so you can see where I am coming from. maybe that will help. I grew up an SDA. I went to SDA schools, hold a degree in SDA theology. 13 years ago I started reading the history and came up against some problems that made me take a new look at what I had been taught. In 2011 I went to an evangelical church and the preached on Daniel 10. It was the first time I saw that maybe i MIGHT be in correct about Michael the Arch angel, being Jesus. After some review of the material. I came to the conclusion that he was not and I had been taught incorrectly so I dropped it. then about 6 weeks ago some one pointed out to me that my conclusion were incorrect. that vision of the man in Daniel 10 and the speaker to Daniel, may not be the same person. I had concluded that they were the same person and concluded that if they were then Michael could not be Jesus, because you cannot have Jesus help Jesus in that passage. The problem is that the speaker may not be the man in the vision so it might not disprove Jesus being Michael . My question is about the grammar, of the speaker in Daniel 10, does it indicate that they are the same person or different people, I do not know.

Here is a link that explores archangels, from a Christian point of view. The Faithlife Study Bible is, imo, a useful source for investigating the Hebrew scriptures.

Who Are the Archangels in the Bible? - Faithlife Blog

It's quite brief. I hope it's useful to you.

And if you want some Christian scholarship on angels I suggest Dr. Michael Heiser's book "Angels". He's a scholar who specializes in the Hebrew scriptures, and in angels in particular. Here's a spoiler: Michael isn't Jesus.

 

[Erik Nelson]

angels are created beings, made by God's Word

they exist inside of creation space time

they can't be the transcendent Word of God

 

[Erik Nelson]

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish to believe

supposedly, only believing in God's truths leads to freedom

all else is the Deception of the Deceiver which leads to enthrallment

if you believe what you want, you are in error, and will wind up powerless

2 Timothy 4:3 has been Decreed, but I would not go so far as to advocate for it

"the truth hurts"

 

[Erik Nelson]

1Ch_21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

the angel of the Lord in this instance is the angel that God had sent. If it says the angel of the Lord said something and then says God said---it is Jesus.

God's Word spoke to the Angel which therefore wasn't God's Word, unless He was muttering to Himself

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Erik Nelson, my comment was meant sarcastically (which I had hoped would be obvious, in context anyway, as well with the addition of my little emoji friend ... ). I suppose I should have said, you are free to believe whatever you like, and you are free to be wrong.

The point I was laboring to make was that simply believing something doesn't make it so (I was replying to a comment that IceDragon made in an earlier post).

--David

 

[Strong in Him]

All you have to do is read the bible!! Again---why did Joshua worship the captain of the host?

Where does it say he worshipped the captain of the host?
Joshua fell on his face and worshipped - as a Jew who believed in One God and who knew the 1st commandment about not giving worship to another, he would not have worshipped an angel.
Most likely that he fell on his face in reverence in the presence of the Lord's angel, and gave his worship to God for sending him a sign and/or someone to guide him.

The text does not say that he worshipped the angel.
If he had tried, I am sure the angel would have stopped him; as you said, angels do not receive worship.

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does it say he worshipped the captain of the host?
Joshua fell on his face and worshipped - as a Jew who believed in One God and who knew the 1st commandment about not giving worship to another, he would not have worshipped an angel.
Most likely that he fell on his face in reverence in the presence of the Lord's angel, and gave his worship to God for sending him a sign and/or someone to guide him.

The text does not say that he worshipped the angel.
If he had tried, I am sure the angel would have stopped him; as you said, angels do not receive worship.

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua took off his shoes and bowed down and worshipped the captain of the hosts---if it were an angel---the angel would have stopped him from worshipping him---not told him to take off his shoes for the gpund was holy---it was Holy because of the presence of Jesus---the captain of the host. No one else ws there. Your evaluation is not consistent with the facts.

​

 

[Neogaia777]

I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

All the (Holy) Angels are part of God's body and "extensions of Himself", but not literally Him Himself... They (the Holy Ones/Angels) do not ever do their own will and may not even have a will of their own, etc... God acts through them, etc... Jesus is God, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Strong in Him]

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship,

Where does it say that Joshua gave his worship TO the angel?
If an angel appeared to me, I'd fall on my face too - but I'd worship GOD.
Where does the text say that Joshua was worshipping the angel?

When Moses took his shoes off at the burning bush, he did not worship the bush.

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does it say that Joshua gave his worship TO the angel?
If an angel appeared to me, I'd fall on my face too - but I'd worship GOD.
Where does the text say that Joshua was worshipping the angel?

When Moses took his shoes off at the burning bush, he did not worship the bush.

LOL! Nobody else was there!! He bowed down and worship the captain of the host---Only God can make the ground holy and He was the only one there! Empty air does not a holy ground make. Captain of the host was Jesus. Deny it all you want. Doesn't change it any.
There was no bush there---and Moses worshiped who was in the burning bush

Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

You can say the angel of the Lord was not God all you want. God doesn't posses angels, neither do any of God's angels posses any human, only evil angels posses people--or any object.

Believe whatever you want.

 

[Neogaia777]

LOL! Nobody else was there!! He bowed down and worship the captain of the host---Only God can make the ground holy and He was the only one there! Empty air does not a holy ground make. Captain of the host was Jesus. Deny it all you want. Doesn't change it any.
There was no bush there---and Moses worshiped who was in the burning bush

Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

You can say the angel of the Lord was not God all you want. God doesn't posses angels, neither do any of God's angels posses any human, only evil angels posses people--or any object.

Believe whatever you want.

God possesses (or inhabits) His angels, and so it will also be with us if and when we become, if we ever do, like some of His angels as well... This is why I said they were "extensions" of Him (God), but not literally Him (God), if you want to get all "technical" about it, etc...

God forgave or overlooked this kind of ignorance in the OT, but not in or after Christ or in or after the New, etc... John in revelation was about to worship a Holy One (or angel) (or one of God's Holy One's) as God, or as a representative or God, and what did the angel say to Him at that time, or after the time or Christ...?

God Bless!

 

[Strong in Him]

LOL! Nobody else was there!!

God was.

 

[Neogaia777]

God was.

God Himself was "in that angel"...

But not in the fallen ones, they have been separated from Him...

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

God was.

Yes!!! Captain of the host!!

 

[mmksparbud]

God possesses (or inhabits) His angels, and so it will also be with us if and when we become, if we ever do, like some of His angels as well... This is why I said they were "extensions" of Him (God), but not literally Him (God), if you want to get all "technical" about it, etc...

God forgave or overlooked this kind of ignorance in the OT, but not in or after Christ or in or after the New, etc... John in revelation was about to worship a Holy One (or angel) (or one of God's Holy One's) as God, or as a representative or God, and what did the angel say to Him at that time, or after the time or Christ...?

God Bless!

God does no such thing.

 

[Neogaia777]

God does no such thing.

God does not inhabit His Holy Angels...?

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes!!! Captain of the host!!

Jesus is more than any mere angel, He was God...

He was in the angel though...

Or let me ask you this...? Do you believe Jesus was created being...? Yes or No...?

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus is more than any mere angel, He was God...

He was in the angel though...

Or let me ask you this...? Do you believe Jesus was created being...? Yes or No...?

God Bless!

Absolutely not. He always was with God from eternity. Have a Happy Thanksgiving---bye.