Michael the Arch Angel = Jesus??? Again. Sorry!!!

yeshuaslavejeff

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JacksBratt

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Archangel does not mean He is an angel- Michael the archangel means "greatest of the Messengers who is like God"
Jesus Christ, He came to show the love of God. He came to die for our sins. He came as God's greatest messenger who is like God.
Archangel is a "class" of angel.. Like in the military... there are ranks and classes of angels.. Some are angels, hosts, principalities, rulers, all are supernatural created beings.

Christ is not Michael.
 
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Kaon

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I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

Michael means who is like (unto) the Most High God? This represents his power (yet it is nothing compared to the Most High God, or even the Word of God Himself).

The One known as Christ has several names: The Word of God/Son of Man/God With Us (Emmanuel)/Yehoshuah (Joshuah)/Ancient of Days (apocrypha).

I am inclined to believe Michael and the Word of God are two separate entities; Michael is a created being (no matter how magnificent), and the Word of God is not.
 
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Kaon

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Archangel is a "class" of angel.. Like in the military... there are ranks and classes of angels.. Some are angels, hosts, principalities, rulers, all are supernatural created beings.

Christ is not Michael.

Which is why Paul was being literal when he said we fight against principalities, powers (another class), rulers (another class) and spiritual wickedness in high places (i.e. heavens).
 
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mmksparbud

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There are 9 classes of angelic beings. The word chief means arch. Now stop that JW nonsense. You already admit the term archangel and/or its equivalent is used twice NOT referring to Michael. Stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

LOL!! I said the word archangel is used only twice. Only once was the word Michael not used with it---"Jesus returns with the voice of the archangel" Just address the verses I have given in post #79.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hello let me address your questions;
  • Daniel 8:25 regarding "the" Prince of princes...This is referring to Christ. Key word here is "the" Prince of princes..
  • Daniel 9:25..Messiah the Prince...it's very obvious
  • Daniel 12:1..Michael the great prince...this is Not Christ, because Christ is the one and only begotten of the Father...and Michael is one of the chief princes Not the Only One...Daniel 10:13
  • Exodus 3:1-3...regarding the angel of the Lord in the burning bush...this is Not Christ but an angel...Acts 7:30-32 according to Stephen the one in the burning bush was an angel, but it was the Lord who spoke through the angel...
  • Joshua 5:15...is also an angel...commander of the Lord's army...but is Not the Lord Himself
The Lord in the Old testament is the title of Christ....Acts 2:36....God has made Jesus both Lord and Messiah (Christ )....


So sorry---but you have them all very wrong.
Yes, Prince of Princes is Jesus that is there because someone said Jesus is not refereed to as a prince--but that is one of His titles.
Again, that is one of His names, and a title the Messiah the Prince.
Dan 12:1 it is Jesus---He is the one, the prince that stands up for His people and ushers in the time of trouble.
Exod 3 It is not an angel that God speaks through---the angel of the Lord is yet another title that belongs to Jesus. God spoke through that bush---Acts 7 does not say that it was an angel that spoke but God Himself. Again---the angel of the Lord is Jesus.

Joshua 5 is not an angel. No angel---ever---allows any man to worship; Him. Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped Him, the Captain of the Host---is the same as the Archangel--commander of all the angels---it is Jesus.

Jesus has many names throughout the OT and into the new
3. Advocate – “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” 1 John 2:1

4. Author and Perfecter of Our Faith “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:2

5. Authority “Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18

6. Bread of Life “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” John 6:35

7. Beloved Son of God“And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17

8. Bridegroom “And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” Matt. 9:15

9. Chief Cornerstone “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22

10. Deliverer – “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess.1:10

11. Faithful and True“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Rev.19:11

12. Good Shepherd - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11

13. Great High Priest“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” Heb. 4:14

14. Head of the Church“And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church.” Eph. 1:22

15. Holy Servant “…and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:29-30

16. I Am“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58

17. Immanuel “…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14

18. Indescribable Gift“Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.” 2 Cor. 9:15

19. Judge“…he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42

20. King of Kings“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Rev. 17:14

21. Lamb of God – “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29

22. Light of the World"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

23. Lion of the Tribe of Judah“Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev. 5:5

24. Lord of All“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11

25. Mediator “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5

26. Messiah “We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).” John 1:41

27. Mighty One “Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16

28. One Who Sets Free“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36

29. Our Hope “…Christ Jesus our hope.” 1 Tim. 1:1

30. Peace“For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,” Eph. 2:14

31. Prophet – “And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Mark 6:4

32. Redeemer“And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25

33. Risen Lord “…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1 Cor. 15:3-4

34. Rock“For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4

35. Sacrifice for Our Sins “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 1 John 4:10

36. Savior “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11

37. Son of Man “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10

38. Son of the Most High“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.” Luke 1:32

39. Supreme Creator Over All “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…” Col. 1:16-17

40. Resurrection and the Life “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” John 11:25

41. The Door“I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9

42. The Way “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

43. The Word “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

44. True Vine - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1

45. Truth “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

46. Victorious One“To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21

47. – 50. Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6

All this…and so much more
Again, El Shaddai---Shaddai: (masc.: שדי / shad'dai) MT: BREAST~s~me RMT: My breasts. Strong's: #7706

It means Mighty breasts---God is not a woman---this is in reference to how He is a nourishing God.

If He can be called Mighty breasts---He can be called Michael!
There are much more than 50 names---why get upset about Michael?
 
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mmksparbud

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I believe Michael the archangel is simply a created angel, and not Jesus Christ not only for biblical reasons but by pure logic alone. Again, the Son of God already has a name. It's Jesus, and not Michael. Do you think a believer can cast out demons in the name of Michael?
Well said and 100% accurate. The Hebrew means, "Who is like God?" And the answer is, "Nobody!"

The original language does not contain a question mark---it is a statement---there was no punctuation in Hebrew.

Don't know---never tried it---can a believer caste out demons in the other over 50 names of God/Jesus?
How about casting out a demon in the name of any of those in post #106? Let me know if it works.
 
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mmksparbud

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He came as God's Son who IS God.
Jesus Christ was, is and always will be God. The universe was created through him, John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16. He is higher than the angels, Hebrews 1:3. He is before all things, Colossians 1:17 and is the Alpha and Omega, Revelation 22:13.


Absolutely!! And He also has about 75 other names! Why get uptight about Michael?
 
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mmksparbud

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Archangel is a "class" of angel.. Like in the military... there are ranks and classes of angels.. Some are angels, hosts, principalities, rulers, all are supernatural created beings.

Christ is not Michael.

Michael is not an angel---He is archangel which means commander of all angels. Doesn't mean He Himself is one. Michael is Jesus---uncreated---just another title, or name of Jesus.
 
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mmksparbud

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Absolutely!! And He also has about 75 other names! Why get uptight about Michael?

All his other names are in Scripture.
There is no verse at all which says that he is Michael. The angel said to Mary, "his name WILL be Jesus", not "his name already is Michael", or even "his name will be Michael."

No Scriptural evidence has been given to show that the Son of God was also an angel called Michael.
 
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mmksparbud

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All his other names are in Scripture.
There is no verse at all which says that he is Michael. The angel said to Mary, "his name WILL be Jesus", not "his name already is Michael", or even "his name will be Michael."

No Scriptural evidence has been given to show that the Son of God was also an angel called Michael.


Yes! His name is Jesus! I do not call Him by any of the other 75 or more names He is called by. Does not in any way mean that Michael is an angel, a created being--He is Archangel---Commander of the angels.
And Joshua bowed down, took off his shoes and worshipped the Captain of the host---another name for archangel, commander of the angels!
 
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I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

Do you accept the scriptures? It is the Scriptures that say -

Jesus is the seed of Abraham...

Jesus is the seed of David...

Jesus is the seed of two Genealogical lists in the New Testament, dealing with Old Testament persons; AND

Scripture tells us -
"

Heb 7: 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Did you see that - "our Lord sprang out of Juda; "[Heb 7:14]

My point is simple- it tells us all we can possibly learn about the whereabouts of Jesus in the Old Testament, He was in the loins of His forefathers - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc, Judah, David, Mary;

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."[Gal 3:16]

Jesus was in the loins of a whole bunch of forefathers; He was not an angel; He was not in Genesis with Abraham speaking to God, but was "with Abraham" because he was "in Abraham's loins."

That should clear up a whole lot of misleading doctrines and creeds.

Great question.
 
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pasifika

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So sorry---but you have them all very wrong.
Yes, Prince of Princes is Jesus that is there because someone said Jesus is not refereed to as a prince--but that is one of His titles.
Again, that is one of His names, and a title the Messiah the Prince.
Dan 12:1 it is Jesus---He is the one, the prince that stands up for His people and ushers in the time of trouble.
Exod 3 It is not an angel that God speaks through---the angel of the Lord is yet another title that belongs to Jesus. God spoke through that bush---Acts 7 does not say that it was an angel that spoke but God Himself. Again---the angel of the Lord is Jesus.

Joshua 5 is not an angel. No angel---ever---allows any man to worship; Him. Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped Him, the Captain of the Host---is the same as the Archangel--commander of all the angels---it is Jesus.

Jesus has many names throughout the OT and into the new
3. Advocate – “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” 1 John 2:1

4. Author and Perfecter of Our Faith “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:2

5. Authority “Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18

6. Bread of Life “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” John 6:35

7. Beloved Son of God“And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17

8. Bridegroom “And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” Matt. 9:15

9. Chief Cornerstone “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22

10. Deliverer – “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess.1:10

11. Faithful and True“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Rev.19:11

12. Good Shepherd - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11

13. Great High Priest“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” Heb. 4:14

14. Head of the Church“And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church.” Eph. 1:22

15. Holy Servant “…and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:29-30

16. I Am“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58

17. Immanuel “…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14

18. Indescribable Gift“Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.” 2 Cor. 9:15

19. Judge“…he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42

20. King of Kings“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Rev. 17:14

21. Lamb of God – “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29

22. Light of the World"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

23. Lion of the Tribe of Judah“Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev. 5:5

24. Lord of All“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11

25. Mediator “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5

26. Messiah “We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).” John 1:41

27. Mighty One “Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16

28. One Who Sets Free“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36

29. Our Hope “…Christ Jesus our hope.” 1 Tim. 1:1

30. Peace“For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,” Eph. 2:14

31. Prophet – “And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Mark 6:4

32. Redeemer“And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25

33. Risen Lord “…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1 Cor. 15:3-4

34. Rock“For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4

35. Sacrifice for Our Sins “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 1 John 4:10

36. Savior “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11

37. Son of Man “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10

38. Son of the Most High“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.” Luke 1:32

39. Supreme Creator Over All “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…” Col. 1:16-17

40. Resurrection and the Life “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” John 11:25

41. The Door“I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9

42. The Way “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

43. The Word “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

44. True Vine - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1

45. Truth “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

46. Victorious One“To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21

47. – 50. Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6

All this…and so much more
Again, El Shaddai---Shaddai: (masc.: שדי / shad'dai) MT: BREAST~s~me RMT: My breasts. Strong's: #7706

It means Mighty breasts---God is not a woman---this is in reference to how He is a nourishing God.

If He can be called Mighty breasts---He can be called Michael!
There are much more than 50 names---why get upset about Michael?
Hello, sorry if what I said is wrong maybe that why so many beliefs out there claiming they are right in their own mind...well that is why we have a forum to address those differences among us Christians....

I didn't read all you've written but I think the main question to put an answer to the OP and to all your questions is....was the Son (Christ ) in the Old testament? ??
 
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Original Happy Camper

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The presentation? < shrugs > If it says Michael is Jesus, it is wrong regardless of presentation. If it disagrees with Scripture in any point, that point is wrong, regardless of presentation. If it agrees with Scripture, not opposed to God's Plan and Purpose, then that part is good and can be accepted.

did you read it?
 
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Adventist Heretic

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Do you accept the scriptures? It is the Scriptures that say -

Jesus is the seed of Abraham...

Jesus is the seed of David...

Jesus is the seed of two Genealogical lists in the New Testament, dealing with Old Testament persons; AND

Scripture tells us -
"

Heb 7: 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Did you see that - "our Lord sprang out of Juda; "[Heb 7:14]

My point is simple- it tells us all we can possibly learn about the whereabouts of Jesus in the Old Testament, He was in the loins of His forefathers - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc, Judah, David, Mary;

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."[Gal 3:16]

Jesus was in the loins of a whole bunch of forefathers; He was not an angel; He was not in Genesis with Abraham speaking to God, but was "with Abraham" because he was "in Abraham's loins."

That should clear up a whole lot of misleading doctrines and creeds.

Great question.
not the question asked. please answer the question and only the question. I am not looking for a doctrinal study from you or any one else on this forum. I am asking 1 question. How many people are in 10 what dose the grammar say. that is all
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
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did you read it?
Didn't have to.
Called a SDA attender I know has been with the SDA a few decades,
who 'admitted' some SDA think wrong, but she herself doesn't - she doesn't know why they do.
 
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