Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

[BBAS 64]

Again you have mis comprehended what Eph 1:4 says.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Notice He chooses us IN HIM. In WHO? In Christ. We have to be in Christ before the Father chooses us for something. But what is that something He chooses us for? Not salvation.He chooses us to be holy and blameless. What does that mean?

Before the foundation of the world the Father made a pact with the Son that those who follow the Son and become "IN HIM" will be seen as holy and blameless. In other words Jesus the Son is a filter that God the Father looks through to us. We are not holy and blameless but sinners. That is what the Father has predestined.

Verse 5 - The Father also agreed to adopt us as Sons.

So we as individual human beings choose to follow Christ and we be seen as Holy and blameless and we will adopted sons. Nothing about salvation here.

This is where Paul talks about salvation.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Good day, Steven

Re-post my question in case you missed it...

Good Day, Steven

Very focused here to you statement " Verse 5 - The Father also agreed to adopt us as Sons."

What version are you using and where in the text is the proposition to the Father to agree to, and who makes such proposition to the Father for His agreement??

I would like to see the text from scripture and the grammar of the proposition made to the father.

Also can you explain your view of adoption?

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Sorry but I don't agree.

Good Day, Steven

That is quite OK that you do not agree, can you show the noun pronoun assignment and relationships within the text of Peter grammatically please?

Where do you feel the video violated the intent of the author grammatically?

in Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I will reply to my own post.

The love of God brings us to repentance. Can we resist God's love. Yes! Do our free will play a part in repentance? I believe so. What does the scripture say? It says we can choose to repent. Why else would Jesus tell us to repent if we had no choice in the matter? To me it's a mystery why someone is saved another isn't when God's will is salvation for everyone.

Good Day, Zoidar

Scriptures says we can chose to repent ok where explictly?

"Why else would Jesus tell us to repent if we had no choice in the matter?"

Not an answer but a wrong implication of commands.

Do you suppose that Lazarus had the free will not to come forth. Because Jesus told him to, do you presuppose he had the ability to do so.

Jn 11 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

I do not recall addressing "free-will agency".. But would be more than happy to do so.

If you recall you stated that God predestined based upon a knowledge of who would repent..

I submit to you that indeed is true because he is the one who grants/give repentance.

For the explicit purpose of leading to the knowledge of truth. Do you agree with that?


2 Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In Him,

Bill

Good day Bill,

Depends what you mean by knowledge of truth. How can we repent without believing that Christ is who he says he is? We can't. If you mean personally knowing Christ in heart, then repentance comes first. I believe God grants repentance, but not that it necessarly means He grants repentance without our cooperation.

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

Scriptures says we can chose to repent ok where explictly?

"Why else would Jesus tell us to repent if we had no choice in the matter?"

Not an answer but a wrong implication of commands.

Do you suppose that Lazarus had the free will not to come forth. Because Jesus told him to, do you presuppose he had the ability to do so.

Jn 11 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

In Him,

Bill

Explictly, that we can choose to repent? Don't know if there is any, but lots of invitations to repent. It seems illogical to me that an allknowing God would tell someone to repent that He knows can't do it.

Does the Bible explictly say the Holy Spirit is God? I don't think you'll find it. Yet we believe it.

First off, Lazarus was most likely allready saved, so it was not a matter of salvation but resurrection. It was a miracle. A lame man, can he choose to walk? No, but Jesus performed miracles and walked he did. Does that mean he was saved, no but that he was healed.

 

[renniks]

Yes it was Gods doing.. that denial was ordained by God ...

Hogwash.

 

[renniks]

The very act of being "just willing" turns salvation into a choice and amounts to works righteousness. It is God who saves us, it is he who enters our heart, opens our eyes, changes our view of him. It's not something we do on our own, we are utterly incapable because we are blinded by sin. Arminianism is the desperate, last ditch effort to give mankind control over his salvation. It's completely contrary to scripture and indicates an utter refusal to trust God.

Lol, nonsense. Being willing is not a work. It doesn't merit salvation or cause it. But it is the condition God has set. How can anyone call faith a work? That's absurd.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Lol, nonsense. Being willing is not a work. It doesn't merit salvation or cause it. But it is the condition God has set. How can anyone call faith a work? That's absurd.

Faith isn't a work, unless you believe that your willingness allows you to be saved. Then your act of being willing, itself a choice, is in fact a work. For those of us who believe in sovereign grace, it is God who is willing and who changes hearts not the willingness or will of man, as made clear by Eph 1, Rom. 9 etc.

 

[renniks]

Faith isn't a work, unless you believe that your willingness allows you to be saved. Then your act of being willing, itself a choice, is in fact a work. For those of us who believe in sovereign grace, it is God who is willing and who changes hearts not the willingness or will of man, as made clear by Eph 1, Rom. 9 etc.

Funny I've read all those and never came to the conclusion that faith was irresistibly planted in people. Of course our willingness is necessary before God does the work of salvation. Why would we be told to increase our faith if it was all Gods doing? Why are some commended for their faith and some chastised for lack of faith? You are still claiming faith is a work. And it's still nonsense.

 

[zoidar]

...

There is something more and important to say. We can be believe in the fact that Jesus died for our sins and rose again and be good theologians and still not be born again. That's a truth that is hard for us to hear, but unless we have the Holy Spirit we can not see the Kingdom of God.

I have heard I was saved when I started to believe in the truth of the cross. I don't believe I was. First I believed, then I repented and got born again and saved. Som here on CF believes my initial belief was the regeneration, but the regeneration took place after repentance not before.

I also like to add, salvation has very little to do with theology, but a lot to do with repentance.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Funny I've read all those and never came to the conclusion that faith was irresistibly planted in people. Of course our willingness is necessary before God does the work of salvation. Why would we be told to increase our faith if it was all Gods doing? Why are some commended for their faith and some chastised for lack of faith? You are still claiming faith is a work. And it's still nonsense.

If that's the conclusion you reach just be honest, you believe in a salvation by works wherein we must be willing in order to be saved.

 

[BBAS 64]

Explictly, that we can choose to repent? Don't know if there is any, but lots of invitations to repent. It seems illogical to me that an allknowing God would tell someone to repent that He knows can't do it.

Does the Bible explictly say the Holy Spirit is God? I don't think you'll find it. Yet we believe it.

First off, Lazarus was most likely allready saved, so it was not a matter of salvation but resurrection. It was a miracle. A lame man, can he choose to walk? No, but Jesus performed miracles and walked he did. Does that mean he was saved, no but that he was healed.

Good Day, Zoidar

It is not illogical the validity of the command is not based on someones ability to keep said command.
The vailidity of the command is based on the objective authority of the one giving the command. In a very real way this was the error Pelagius the heretic.

Jesus told Lazarus to come forth (command)
Jesus said come to him... in John 6 he said no man can come to me

The ten commandments include with in that law a means and structure of sacrifice because God knew we could not keep them.


I would commend to you Owens work on the trinity.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

It is not illogical the validity of the command is not based on someones ability to keep said command.
The vailidity of the command is based on the objective authority of the one giving the command. In a very real way this was the error Pelagius the heretic.

Jesus told Lazarus to come forth (command)
Jesus said come to him... in John 6 he said no man can come to me

The ten commandments include with in that law a means and structure of sacrifice because God knew we could not keep them.


I would commend to you Owens work on the trinity.

In Him,

Bill

We have a different understanding of the ten commandments. We are to keep them and we can. Jesus lays out the heart of the ten commandments in the sermon on the plain and sermon on the mount. Then he says:

Matthew 7
“24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall.”

The only one who could keep the commandments perfectly is of course Jesus, keep them we can, perfectly we can't.

 

[renniks]

If that's the conclusion you reach just be honest, you believe in a salvation by works wherein we must be willing in order to be saved.

There's no works in faith. Of course we have to be willing, based on about a million verses that say we have to believe in order to be saved.

 

[Redwingfan9]

There's no works in faith. Of course we have to be willing, based on about a million verses that say we have to believe in order to be saved.

To will is to work.

 

[renniks]

To will is to work.

Chapter and verse, please?

 

[Redwingfan9]

Chapter and verse, please?

It's called the English language. You don't get to redefine words to suit your theology.

 

[renniks]

It's called the English language. You don't get to redefine words to suit your theology.

? Seems like that's what you are doing. Re defining Faith as a work? I think you need to go read Galatians.

 

[rnmomof7]

Explictly, that we can choose to repent? Don't know if there is any, but lots of invitations to repent. It seems illogical to me that an allknowing God would tell someone to repent that He knows can't do it.

Scripture says God GRANTS repentance ... a man can only repent himself as man repents

 

[rnmomof7]

We have a different understanding of the ten commandments. We are to keep them and we can. Jesus lays out the heart of the ten commandments in the sermon on the plain and sermon on the mount. Then he says:

Matthew 7
“24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall.”

The only one who could keep the commandments perfectly is of course Jesus, keep them we can, perfectly we can't.

We must keep in mind that the Law was given to the Jews, not gentiles. Jesus was a jew and He was speaking to Jews..