LDS Is Jesus White?

[He is the way]

I find your reply here like a shell game of words or as Scripture says is: " double minded man is unstable in all his ways … like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." ~ James 1

You refer to the OT Law of Moses (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10) to substantiate your position --- only then to agree with just the opposite:

"You would be correct if the Church of Jesus Christ followed the Law of Moses and tried real hard to keep all of the commandments of the Law of Moses. Fortunately we do not." ~ Peter1000​

fyi: (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10) … is referring to the. Law. of. Moses.

Jesus also refereed to Deuteronomy:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

He also used Leviticus:

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Not everything in the Old Testament is from the just about the law of Moses especially these two commandments which are the greatest of all of the commandments. Nor does it nullify who loves Jesus and those who doesn't:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 20)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[dzheremi]

Have you ever tried to memorize large tracts of the Bible?

No. What does that have to do with JS and the BOM?

You said: "What about the 'missing' 116 pages?" The Book of Lehi is not part of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith lost the ability to translate for a time after those pages were lost.

Yes, in other words, what he had started "by the power of God" couldn't be continued where he had left off. This puts a rather big crimp in your idea that his being able to continue where he left off means something, does it not? Or this only meant to apply to the BOM as he would eventually produce it, and to his first attempt at being a prophet, seer, and revelator?

I find the whole thing a bit odd to begin with, since the Mormon religious authorities have been forced to admit in recent years that the Book of Mormon plates were not directly involved in the 'translation' process to begin with (read: he wasn't looking directly at them). In that context, why is it that suddenly being deprived of these 116 pages was such a problem? Why did he only have this magic ability to start back up again without having to have possession of the text with regard to the BOM plates?

You said: "I should hope you'd be able to start off in the same place every time without help from anyone"

Most authors are able to look at what they have written to see where they left off before continuing on with their book. Joseph Smith did not need to do that.

Again, so what? To everyone but Mormons, it's JS's story...why should it have to continue on in any particular fashion? Besides, my point was that in such a short time, it's less impressive (not more) that he should remember these things. We should expect that, unless he had some kind of traumatic head injury between one day and the next. Do you really think it's some kind of miracle that JS can remember this thing he's been working on from one day to the next? Is his memory like an Etch-A-Sketch toy that gets shaken back to an unused state every morning?

 

[Peter1000]

So what? Because he didn't have any written material in front of him that means he couldn't remember the names of things he had previously read? I haven't read a Garfield cartoon since I was a kid (~30 years ago), and I can still tell you that the main characters in that cartoon strip are Garfield the cat, Odie the dog, Jon the owner, Liz his girlfriend, and Nermal the smaller, cuter cat. What is this supposed to prove?



What about the 'missing' 116 pages? Also, if you're only working on something for 65 days, I should hope you'd be able to start off in the same place every time without help from anyone, since that's not a very long period of time, and it's not like you'd have to remember it over huge stretches during which it isn't being worked on. You'd basically be returning to it maybe once every few days, or once every week, and it's not very difficult to remember where you left off over such sort spaces, particularly if you're young and able-minded, as JS was.



No it wasn't. It was written in imitation of the KJV, but with many mistakes (in pronoun usage, for instance), in addition to a general overkill in affected 'old timey' verb endings like -eth and -est.



It really isn't. Thou couldest addeth suchas this to thine postings inasmuch as thy may wanteth, too. So whateth?



And that's fine. That's your opinion. I'm just saying that as someone who knows at least a few things about linguistics and geography, I find it hard to believe that JS discovered plates written by Moroni in the hill Cumorah. Or rather, I find it hard to not notice how similar those two things are to Moroni, capital of the Comoros.

As I wrote in reply to Steve, I'm not trying to overstate the case, I'm just saying it's noticeable and it makes me wonder.

No, what you are saying is: I am not giving JS any credit for anything having to do with a book that is 531 pages long of a history of a people that sailed out of the Red Sea around 600bc and ended up in the Americas and finished around 425ad in the Mexico City area. Complete with their religious history, how they governed, how they organized their warrior class, and fought their wars, how they migrated, how they saw Jesus Christ, how and why they disappeared from history, etc., etc., etc.

Nothing, you give him nothing. It's like you are trying hard to talk yourself out of believing JS.
Nothing he does amounts to anything to you, except he was a dang good false prophet.

 

[dzheremi]

No, what you are saying is: I am not giving JS any credit for anything having to do with a book that is 531 pages long of a history of a people that sailed out of the Red Sea around 600bc and ended up in the Americas and finished around 425ad in the Mexico City area. Complete with their religious history, how they governed, how they organized their warrior class, and fought their wars, how they migrated, how they saw Jesus Christ, how and why they disappeared from history, etc., etc., etc.

Nothing, you give him nothing. It's like you are trying hard to talk yourself out of believing JS.
Nothing he does amounts to anything to you, except he was a dang good false prophet.

I'm willing to give Joseph Smith credit for writing the Book of Mormon (perhaps with other people, perhaps not; perhaps based on an amalgamation of earlier sources or other inspiration, perhaps not), and starting the Mormon religion based on his claimed translation of ancient plates he claimed to have found and all this other stuff. (You know the traditional narrative; I don't need to go through every point and evaluate it.) This is actually quite a bit, because I frankly don't care about whatever he managed to produce. Basically what you have is a guy who claimed to find plates and translate them into a book without looking at them in the process by use of a magic rock in a hat. That's patently ridiculous, but I'm willing to grant that this is how the story goes, and insofar as doing so does not mean that any of it is proof of anything miraculous (because it isn't), then I'm fine with it.

What I'm not willing to do is buy into any of the Mormon apologetic claims for things that have real world explanations that do not involve God, or Joseph Smith being a true prophet (nor any kind of seer, translator, or revelator). I don't believe in those things because I am not a Mormon.

Surely this is an understandable position. I don't believe in the foreign origin stories of a religion that I do not belong to. Neither do I believe that Muhammad is a true prophet, nor that his Qur'an is a true revelation from God, or that Bahaullah is a true prophet, nor that his Kitab-i-Aqdas is a true revelation from God, etc. This is not anything weird or unfair in the slightest.

Your prophet is not a prophet, and his book is not a revelation. Nobody outside of Mormonism affirms either.

 

[He is the way]

No. What does that have to do with JS and the BOM?



Yes, in other words, what he had started "by the power of God" couldn't be continued where he had left off. This puts a rather big crimp in your idea that his being able to continue where he left off means something, does it not? Or this only meant to apply to the BOM as he would eventually produce it, and to his first attempt at being a prophet, seer, and revelator?

I find the whole thing a bit odd to begin with, since the Mormon religious authorities have been forced to admit in recent years that the Book of Mormon plates were not directly involved in the 'translation' process to begin with (read: he wasn't looking directly at them). In that context, why is it that suddenly being deprived of these 116 pages was such a problem? Why did he only have this magic ability to start back up again without having to have possession of the text with regard to the BOM plates?



Again, so what? To everyone but Mormons, it's JS's story...why should it have to continue on in any particular fashion? Besides, my point was that in such a short time, it's less impressive (not more) that he should remember these things. We should expect that, unless he had some kind of traumatic head injury between one day and the next. Do you really think it's some kind of miracle that JS can remember this thing he's been working on from one day to the next? Is his memory like an Etch-A-Sketch toy that gets shaken back to an unused state every morning?

The Book of Mormon has large tracts from the Bible which Joseph Smith would have had to memorize since he had no written material with him. He would also have to place these tracts in the proper places so they would flow in the context of the book. I could not help laughing at your portrayal of the kings English. If Joseph Smith was the author of the Book of Mormon, he would have to have been the smartest man on the earth to do that work in such a short time at such an early age with little formal training. I believe him when he said:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:25)

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 

[dzheremi]

The Book of Mormon has large tracts from the Bible which Joseph Smith would have had to memorize since he had no written material with him.

And that is impossible to do because...?

I've met people who had large sections of the Bible memorized (monks and priests), though I haven't done so myself.

He would also have to place these tracts in the proper places so they would flow in the context of the book.

Again, this is something out of the ordinary how? He would obviously want his book to make sense whether it was from God or not, so I don't see how that's proof of anything.

If Joseph Smith was the author of the Book of Mormon

What do you mean 'if'? Is that not what the first edition said?

"By Joseph Smith, Junior, Author and Proprietor"

(From the Library of Congress collections.)

he would have to have been the smartest man on the earth

How does that follow?

to do that work in such a short time at such an early age with little formal training.

You don't need formal training to memorize the Bible or to make up stories about American Indians coming from Jerusalem.

I believe him when he said:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:25)

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

Okay. I don't believe him, but I do agree with Mark Twain when he wrote of the Book of Mormon the following:

ALL men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two--he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.
​

(From Roughing It, chapter 16)

​

 

[He is the way]

And that is impossible to do because...?

I've met people who had large sections of the Bible memorized (monks and priests), though I haven't done so myself.



Again, this is something out of the ordinary how? He would obviously want his book to make sense whether it was from God or not, so I don't see how that's proof of anything.



What do you mean 'if'? Is that not what the first edition said?

"By Joseph Smith, Junior, Author and Proprietor"

(From the Library of Congress collections.)



How does that follow?



You don't need formal training to memorize the Bible or to make up stories about American Indians coming from Jerusalem.



Okay. I don't believe him, but I do agree with Mark Twain when he wrote of the Book of Mormon the following:

ALL men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two--he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.
​

(From Roughing It, chapter 16)

​

You said: "I've met people who had large sections of the Bible memorized (monks and priests), though I haven't done so myself."

Monks and priests, not young farm boys.

You said: "By Joseph Smith, Junior, Author and Proprietor"

It was the only way he could have lawfully published the Book of Mormon.

"
At first glance, this might seem like Joseph made contradictory claims about his role in bringing forth the Book of Mormon.3 This conclusion, however, is not warranted for many reasons. It has long been recognized that designating Joseph Smith as the “author and proprietor” of the Book of Mormon in the first edition was done to conform to copyright law.4 In fact, the copyright page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon features the exact phrase used on the title page to describe Joseph Smith:

In conformity to the act of the Congress of the United States, entitled, “An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned;” and also the act, entitled, “An act supplementary to an act, entitled, ‘An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned, and extending the benefits thereof to the arts of designing, engraving, and etching historical and other prints.”5

As observed by Miriam A. Smith and John W. Welch, “Joseph fits comfortably . . . within the broad legal meaning of the word author” by nineteenth century legal standards. “Musical composers, cartographers, etchers, engravers, and designers were all authors within the meaning of that term in [a 1790 copyright] statute” in effect at the time. Additionally, “A translator also qualified, for copyright purposes, as the author of a book he had translated. Indeed, other translators [of the time] called themselves ‘authors.’”6

From: Was Joseph Smith the “Author” of the Book of Mormon?

I am very very surprised you didn't know this.

Strange you would use Mark Twain who said this about the Bible:

"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
- Letters from the Earth"

"When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn't know.
- Mark Twain's Notebook"

From: Mark Twain quotations - Bible

 

[dzheremi]

You said: "I've met people who had large sections of the Bible memorized (monks and priests), though I haven't done so myself."

Monks and priests, not young farm boys.

I don't see your point here. Joseph's being a young farm boy does not exclude him from being able to memorize things.

Here's an Egyptian toddler reciting prayers in Coptic, a language which died as a native tongue probably c. 14th century AD:

If I were to follow your logic, I would hail this as miraculous, because how could a child of such young age learn/retain/know such things? It must be by the power of God...or, y'know, his family taught him, since you can hear his dad (?) tell him to pray the "Our Father" prayer (Je Peniot). So it's not miraculous after all; it's a combination of learning, probably through repetition, and having good recall. Good parenting, you might say.

Say, speaking of good parenting, didn't the Smith's have a family Bible? Lds.org.uk's article on The life of Joseph Smith states (emphases added): "The teenaged Joseph Smith Jr. and his siblings labored to help their father on the farm and did not receive much formal education. They did, however, frequently read from the Holy Bible as a family [...] Joseph Smith's study of the Bible led him to pray..."

I am very very surprised you didn't know this.

I did know that stuff about copyright, and you are missing the point entirely, which is that legally speaking, yes, Joseph is the author. As I've written already in response to Peter, I am more than willing to grant JS whatever he wants to claim regarding his 'translation' work (that doesn't mean it's even slightly believable to anybody who knows anything about languages or how translation works, but that's another topic), in that I believe that the work that is known as the Book of Mormon is something that originates by his work, whether you want to call it a translation, or the word of God, or a fantasy novel or whatever. So of course legally he is the author. That's entirely my point. JS did write the BOM. The only place where you and I differ is that you claim that what he wrote was a translation of ancient gold plates (which as far as anyone knows never existed) written in Reformed Egyptian (which doesn't exist), representing a true revelation from God to JS (which is obviously a religious claim which nobody who isn't Mormon is buying). That's all separate from whether or not he is the author. He very clearly is, whether you resort to the kind of apologetics you are doing here which still give some room for it to also be a 'holy' translation, or whether you are a non-Mormon who thinks that's all hokum but sees no reason not to credit the man as he has already credited himself, while denying that his translation was from God (or even in fact a translation; I've spent pretty much my entire life translating this and that, and I can tell you that I've spent exactly zero seconds of my life with my face in a hat, looking at magical rocks).

Strange you would use Mark Twain who said this about the Bible

Not nearly as strange as you bringing this up as though it has any relevance to his thoughts on the Book of Mormon, which is what we're talking about. If you want to talk about the Bible instead, that's a different conversation entirely, and you are free to have it with someone in the appropriate thread (not here).

 

[mmksparbud]

This is a correct statement, but I believe God looks at both. He is concerned what we do on the outside and on the inside. For instance, if we say we really really believe in him, but do not what he says, then he knows our heart is far from him.
But if we really really believe in him and do not what he wants us to do, but later we repent and we go out and do what he wants us to do, then he know our hearts are close to him.

So the outward gives a look at the inward. Now I guess there are times when we can put on a show of good works, only to do so for our own personal gain, so that our hearts are really far from him, but we look like believers. That is possible, and I am sure that happens. But I believe that is a rare occurrence. Why go out and do work for Jesus, when you really do not believe anyway? LIke I say, very rare.

The inward determines what the outlook will be. Bottom line, it is the heart that God will see and if the good works do not match up with the heart---the good works mean nothing.

 

[mmksparbud]

Monks and priests, not young farm boys.

Get real, there are dirt poor literate families who end up with a child that has a photographic memory, that memory, allowed him to go through college eventually, and become a doctor. I worked with him. He could have used his intellect to do sinister acts instead, but he became a doctor. I have a bother that was considered retarded---never did very well in school, everything came hard to him---but he could play the piano by ear and could carve intricate beautiful things and became the owner of his own dental lab, making teeth--for famous people---He did them for Sammy Davis Jr and his wife amongst many others. He made more money than all of us out together. He could have gone a different route. Being a young farm boy does not mean stupid, he was very cunning, not stupid. He was smart, but used that intellect to con people. You forget, the prophetess of my church had no more than a 3rd grade education and wrote over a 100 books and has some in the Library of Congress. You can't tell me that young, uneducated and very poor people can't do anything, God can work with the poorest and most literate---and so can Satan---test the spirits and JS never did.

 

[mmksparbud]

I find the whole thing a bit odd to begin with, since the Mormon religious authorities have been forced to admit in recent years that the Book of Mormon plates were not directly involved in the 'translation' process to begin with (read: he wasn't looking directly at them). In that context, why is it that suddenly being deprived of these 116 pages was such a problem? Why did he only have this magic ability to start back up again without having to have possession of the text with regard to the BOM plates?

Good question---Moses broke the original 10 commandment stones---God wrote up a second set.

 

[mmksparbud]

Have you read the Book of Mormon?

I've said I prayed before and after and I am convinced it is not of God. Told you several times I read the thing and the other books. Not of God.

 

[dzheremi]

L. Ron Hubbard flunked out of the college physics course he took (especially funny since he later portrayed himself as a leading physicist or some such nonsense in one of his books), was declared unfit to be a commander in the army in WWII after accidentally shelling a Mexican island (oops), and was involved with a magic sex-cult that wanted to impregnate a woman to bring forth the literal anti-Christ...and despite all that he still managed to found a 'religion' that has a net value of approximately $1.75 billion dollars.

Again applying LDS logic would have me absolutely wowed by that (how could that happen?????), except for all the satanic sex cult magic stuff...I mean, that's nothing like JS' money digging, peep stones, and other backwoods folk magic stuff, cos he talked about Jesus a lot! But the principle remains the same: we have an underwhelming, basically incompetent, academically sub-par young man who has a miraculous experience (in Hubbard's case, it was supposedly curing himself with the mental exercises that would become Dianetics, the precursor to his Scientology religion) which nobody can really question let alone independently verify, and from that eventually goes on to found a religion which nobody inside of it can really question let alone independently verify.

Yet L. Ron Hubbard is obviously not a prophet. Huh. Strange.

 

[He is the way]

I don't see your point here. Joseph's being a young farm boy does not exclude him from being able to memorize things.

Here's an Egyptian toddler reciting prayers in Coptic, a language which died as a native tongue probably c. 14th century AD:


If I were to follow your logic, I would hail this as miraculous, because how could a child of such young age learn/retain/know such things? It must be by the power of God...or, y'know, his family taught him, since you can hear his dad (?) tell him to pray the "Our Father" prayer (Je Peniot). So it's not miraculous after all; it's a combination of learning, probably through repetition, and having good recall. Good parenting, you might say.

Say, speaking of good parenting, didn't the Smith's have a family Bible? Lds.org.uk's article on The life of Joseph Smith states (emphases added): "The teenaged Joseph Smith Jr. and his siblings labored to help their father on the farm and did not receive much formal education. They did, however, frequently read from the Holy Bible as a family [...] Joseph Smith's study of the Bible led him to pray..."



I did know that stuff about copyright, and you are missing the point entirely, which is that legally speaking, yes, Joseph is the author. As I've written already in response to Peter, I am more than willing to grant JS whatever he wants to claim regarding his 'translation' work (that doesn't mean it's even slightly believable to anybody who knows anything about languages or how translation works, but that's another topic), in that I believe that the work that is known as the Book of Mormon is something that originates by his work, whether you want to call it a translation, or the word of God, or a fantasy novel or whatever. So of course legally he is the author. That's entirely my point. JS did write the BOM. The only place where you and I differ is that you claim that what he wrote was a translation of ancient gold plates (which as far as anyone knows never existed) written in Reformed Egyptian (which doesn't exist), representing a true revelation from God to JS (which is obviously a religious claim which nobody who isn't Mormon is buying). That's all separate from whether or not he is the author. He very clearly is, whether you resort to the kind of apologetics you are doing here which still give some room for it to also be a 'holy' translation, or whether you are a non-Mormon who thinks that's all hokum but sees no reason not to credit the man as he has already credited himself, while denying that his translation was from God (or even in fact a translation; I've spent pretty much my entire life translating this and that, and I can tell you that I've spent exactly zero seconds of my life with my face in a hat, looking at magical rocks).



Not nearly as strange as you bringing this up as though it has any relevance to his thoughts on the Book of Mormon, which is what we're talking about. If you want to talk about the Bible instead, that's a different conversation entirely, and you are free to have it with someone in the appropriate thread (not here).

Memorizing a prayer and large tracts of the Bible is not the same thing. The Book of Mormon was written in 65 days and is over 500 pages long. I know for a fact that it could not have been accomplished without God's help.

Who is Mark Twain that I would put any serious consideration into what he said? I already know that many of the things he said were out of tune with God.

As for seer stones I am sure you haven't spent any time using the Urim and Thummim either. Neither have I. But it was used by the high priest:

U·rim and Thum·mim
/ˈ(y)o͝orim,o͞oˈrēm and ˈTHəmim,to͞oˈmēm/
noun
HISTORICAL

1. two objects of a now unknown nature, possibly used for divination, worn on the breastplate of a Jewish high priest.

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=uri....69i57j0l5.11123j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Yes only members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe the things we believe and only Oriental Orthodox believe the things that Oriental Orthodox believe. That is no surprise.

 

[He is the way]

Get real, there are dirt poor literate families who end up with a child that has a photographic memory, that memory, allowed him to go through college eventually, and become a doctor. I worked with him. He could have used his intellect to do sinister acts instead, but he became a doctor. I have a bother that was considered retarded---never did very well in school, everything came hard to him---but he could play the piano by ear and could carve intricate beautiful things and became the owner of his own dental lab, making teeth--for famous people---He did them for Sammy Davis Jr and his wife amongst many others. He made more money than all of us out together. He could have gone a different route. Being a young farm boy does not mean stupid, he was very cunning, not stupid. He was smart, but used that intellect to con people. You forget, the prophetess of my church had no more than a 3rd grade education and wrote over a 100 books and has some in the Library of Congress. You can't tell me that young, uneducated and very poor people can't do anything, God can work with the poorest and most literate---and so can Satan---test the spirits and JS never did.

Yes there are prodigies and savants. I do not believe that Joseph Smith had a photographic memory. Nor do I believe he had the gift of being able to use the king's English enough to dictate the Book of Mormon in the king's English.

Satan is not divided against himself:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:26 - 28)

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Joseph Smith did know how to test spirits.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes there are prodigies and savants. I do not believe that Joseph Smith had a photographic memory. Nor do I believe he had the gift of being able to use the king's English enough to dictate the Book of Mormon in the king's English.

Satan is not divided against himself:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:26 - 28)

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Joseph Smith did know how to test spirits.

Not divided against himself? No----

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
JS did not test Moroni.

Telling lies about God is exactly what Satan is all about. JS never even tried to caste Moroni out, never tested him. It doesn't have to be God that dictates a book of lies---but the greatest liar of all most certainly can. And God doesn't use the Kings English to speak to modern man. He speaks to the man in his own language of the time. He certainly isn't going to speak to a man in China in modern
English! What would be the point? He speaks in order to be understood. He isn't gong to give that Chinese man a book from some ancient New Guinea and tell him to decipher it through some magic stones in a hat.

The stones that JS used were not the Urim and Thummim. They did not go into a hat---they were worn on the ephod, one was for no and the other for yes--they would light up with the glory of God.

Each stone had the names of 6 of the tribes of Israel. ​

Exo 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
Lev 8:8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

 

[He is the way]

Not divided against himself? No----

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
JS did not test Moroni.

Telling lies about God is exactly what Satan is all about. JS never even tried to caste Moroni out, never tested him. It doesn't have to be God that dictates a book of lies---but the greatest liar of all most certainly can. And God doesn't use the Kings English to speak to modern man. He speaks to the man in his own language of the time. He certainly isn't going to speak to a man in China in modern
English! What would be the point? He speaks in order to be understood. He isn't gong to give that Chinese man a book from some ancient New Guinea and tell him to decipher it through some magic stones in a hat.

The stones that JS used were not the Urim and Thummim. They did not go into a hat---they were worn on the ephod, one was for no and the other for yes--they would light up with the glory of God.

Each stone had the names of 6 of the tribes of Israel. ​

Exo 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
Lev 8:8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

You said: "Telling lies about God is exactly what Satan is all about. JS never even tried to caste Moroni out, never tested him. It doesn't have to be God that dictates a book of lies:

Yes we know how Satan works and tries to make people think that Joseph Smith was deceived. People also called Jesus a deceiver. People do not like to be told the truth:

(New Testament | Matthew 27:62 - 64)

62 ¶ Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

You said: "The stones that JS used were not the Urim and Thummim. They did not go into a hat---they were worn on the ephod, one was for no and the other for yes--they would light up with the glory of God."

No one is saying that the seer stone in the hat was part of the Urim and Thummim, although Joseph Smith did have the Urim and Thummim and used it to translate the first 116 pages of Lehi which were lost. I believe that as Joseph Smith worked very hard to do God's work, God blessed him with greater abilities. God blesses grace for grace:

(New Testament | John 1:16)

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

(New Testament | Luke 2:52)

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:10)

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "Telling lies about God is exactly what Satan is all about. JS never even tried to caste Moroni out, never tested him. It doesn't have to be God that dictates a book of lies:

Yes we know how Satan works and tries to make people think that Joseph Smith was deceived. People also called Jesus a deceiver. People do not like to be told the truth:

(New Testament | Matthew 27:62 - 64)

62 ¶ Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

You said: "The stones that JS used were not the Urim and Thummim. They did not go into a hat---they were worn on the ephod, one was for no and the other for yes--they would light up with the glory of God."

No one is saying that the seer stone in the hat was part of the Urim and Thummim, although Joseph Smith did have the Urim and Thummim and used it to translate the first 116 pages of Lehi which were lost. I believe that as Joseph Smith worked very hard to do God's work, God blessed him with greater abilities. God blesses grace for grace:

(New Testament | John 1:16)

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

(New Testament | Luke 2:52)

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:10)

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

You are free to believe whatever you want. Bottom line---JS never tested Moroni, Moroni is not an angel of the Lord and nothing he said is true.

 

[dzheremi]

Memorizing a prayer and large tracts of the Bible is not the same thing.

I never implied that they were. My point is that Mormon logic of "I don't see how a person who is of JS' station could do this thing, therefore it's from God", if applied to other things, would make a lot of other things that aren't miracles/from God into something other than what they are, too.

The Book of Mormon was written in 65 days and is over 500 pages long. I know for a fact that it could not have been accomplished without God's help.

You don't know that. You don't know anything, as far as Mormon claims are concerned. You believe them to be true. You believe that this couldn't be accomplished without God's help, but that's not a reason why anyone should follow you in that belief.

To me, it is totally possible to write 500+ pages of nonsense that doesn't have to mean anything or be connected to anything in real life (or be grammatically correct or have any punctuation) in 65 days. Heck, probably under 65 days now that we have computers and don't have to use old style inkwells or whatever.

Besides, how many of those 500 pages were filled with "it came to pass" phrases ("and it came to pass", "it came to pass", "for it came to pass", etc.) alone? Apparently such phrasing is 2.5% of the total words in the book.

Just for fun, I created a little macro in Word to see how many pages it would take to house all 1,165 instances of "and it came to pass". Turns out that in 11 point Calibri font, you can fit three instances of "and it came to pass" (no capitals, standard spacing) per line, hence 90 instances per page. At this rate, it takes almost 13 pages for "and it came to pass" alone! 1,165 / 90 = 12.94444

The only other phrase in the list with any large frequency ("it came to pass", no "and") fits 6 times per line, hence 180 times per page, adding another 1 1/4 page of just that, since there are 228 instances of that in the BOM. 228/180 = 1.26666

I'm sure JS really needed God's help to write nearly 15 pages of two phrases that are basically the same.

It's like Mormons have an even lower opinion of JS than non-Mormons do.

Who is Mark Twain that I would put any serious consideration into what he said?

When did I ever write that you would or should?

As for seer stones I am sure you haven't spent any time using the Urim and Thummim either. Neither have I. But it was used by the high priest:

U·rim and Thum·mim
/ˈ(y)o͝orim,o͞oˈrēm and ˈTHəmim,to͞oˈmēm/
noun
HISTORICAL

1. two objects of a now unknown nature, possibly used for divination, worn on the breastplate of a Jewish high priest.

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=uri....69i57j0l5.11123j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Yep. And JS wasn't a Jewish high priest, and there is no consensus on what the objects were used for. I'm going to guess that the Jewish high priests did not put them in a hat so as to translate unheard of languages.

 

[He is the way]

You are free to believe whatever you want. Bottom line---JS never tested Moroni, Moroni is not an angel of the Lord and nothing he said is true.

How do you know that Joseph Smith did not test the angel Moroni?

(New Testament | Revelation 14:6)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,