LDS Is Jesus White?

[twin.spin]

There is possibly another reason why the sudden so-called 'resent' from so-called prophets ….. the wool is getting thicker.

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."

Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

​

 

[twin.spin]

There is only one way back to the Father and that is through the atonement of His Son Jesus Christ. We are members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints and resent being called Mormons. We are not members of the church of Mormon. There is no such church.

Time to bring out the Mormon dictionary:

Atonement > Mormon:

1) a reference to Jesus conquering physical death for all people. By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for everyone to enter into the presence of Heavenly Father once again.

Mormons enter the Father's presence to be *judged*.

"Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged" (True to the Faith, p. 18)​

2) includes the thought of Jesus paying for their sins. However, the thought is that Mormons have to "pay"* Jesus back for such.

* Boyd K. Packer's parable of the creditor and debtor.
*the chapter on atonement in Gospel Principles.​

Atonement >Biblical Christianity:

teaches that through his voluntary sacrifice, Jesus made payment (atoned) for all sin.
Therefore, salvation is free and full in Jesus. No more payments can be made. See Hebrews 10:18.​

 

[He is the way]

There is possibly another reason why the sudden so-called 'resent' from so-called prophets ….. the wool is getting thicker.

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."

Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

View attachment 265781
​

I stay away from false prophets because I know right from wrong:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16 - 20)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[He is the way]

Time to bring out the Mormon dictionary:

Atonement > Mormon:

1) a reference to Jesus conquering physical death for all people. By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for everyone to enter into the presence of Heavenly Father once again.

Mormons enter the Father's presence to be *judged*.

"Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged" (True to the Faith, p. 18)​

2) includes the thought of Jesus paying for their sins. However, the thought is that Mormons have to "pay"* Jesus back for such.

* Boyd K. Packer's parable of the creditor and debtor.
*the chapter on atonement in Gospel Principles.​

Atonement >Biblical Christianity:

teaches that through his voluntary sacrifice, Jesus made payment (atoned) for all sin.
Therefore, salvation is free and full in Jesus. No more payments can be made. See Hebrews 10:18.​

Who will get the mercy?:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Who will inherit eternal life:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

[dzheremi]

I stay away from false prophets because I know right from wrong

 

[mmksparbud]

I stay away from false prophets because I know right from wrong:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16 - 20)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No you don't. You fell for the worst of the lot. And now, you are stuck in it and can't bare the truth that you have been fooled for all those years. JS never tested Moroni--if he existed at all. We are not to just accept any spirit. You just went along with it for you were trained as a child to accept Moroni as real. Our righteousness is greater the Pharisees---it is the righteousness of Christ. Moroni, nor JS, can not get you into the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[dzheremi]

Random, semi-related thought: Was anyone else a geography nerd as a kid, and hence already knew Moroni not as an angel but as the capital city of the Comoros (a chain of islands off the eastern coast of Africa)?

It makes me wonder if Joseph Smith also knew that. There's no reason to assume that this would've been impossible to know or find out while composing the BOM, as the islands were long known to Europeans (the Spanish had been there as early as 1503), and the city of Moroni itself was well known. The main mosque of the city was built before European contact, in 1427, so it can't be argued that this wasn't a known and settled place in JS' own time (which is usually the argument made by Mormon apologists regarding the specific BOM place names which are often said to nearly match known New England and surrounding place names).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

shalom

 

[tampasteve]

Random, semi-related thought: Was anyone else a geography nerd as a kid, and hence already knew Moroni not as an angel but as the capital city of the Comoros (a chain of islands off the eastern coast of Africa)?

It makes me wonder if Joseph Smith also knew that. There's no reason to assume that this would've been impossible to know or find out while composing the BOM, as the islands were long known to Europeans (the Spanish had been there as early as 1503), and the city of Moroni itself was well known. The main mosque of the city was built before European contact, in 1427, so it can't be argued that this wasn't a known and settled place in JS' own time (which is usually the argument made by Mormon apologists regarding the specific BOM place names which are often said to nearly match known New England and surrounding place names).

I also am definitely a geography and history nerd. It is certainly possible, but very improbable. Moroni was more or less just a local town until the late 1800s and JS was working on the BOM in the mid/early 1800s. It's a bit of a stretch to say that "the city of Moroni itself was well known". There would have been people that were familiar, but it would likely have been mostly people that needed to know for some reason, which JS does not really fit that description IMO.

 

[dzheremi]

I also am definitely a geography and history nerd. It is certainly possible, but very improbable.

I agree that it is improbable, and didn't post that to suggest that he did, only like you say that it is possible. (Keep in mind that the context for this kind of question is not "Joseph Smith knew all of these things unless the defenders of the BOM prove otherwise", but rather the common apologetic of the Mormons that nobody could have known XYZ back then -- presumably including JS -- so therefore the BOM is true/an actual historical document/from God/etc.)

Moroni was more or less just a local town until the late 1800s and JS was working on the BOM in the mid/early 1800s.

Ah, but the same is just as much the case with regard to the cities of the Americas and especially the Middle East that BOM-defending geographers say substantiate their book's narrative, so either it is possible to point to Nahom (an archaelogical site in Yemen) and say that this is evidence of BOM place names existing in the real world long before JS (as they do) and possible to point to Moroni as evidence of BOM personal names existing in the real world long before JS, or nobody should making these kinds of arguments. The difference between someone like me and the BOM apologists is that I recognize I'm suggesting something very far-fetched.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that "the city of Moroni itself was well known". There would have been people that were familiar, but it would likely have been mostly people that needed to know for some reason

Isn't that true of absolutely everything? Especially the further back you go in time? JS couldn't have gotten lost down a Wikipedia/YouTube hole, after all.

which JS does not really fit that description IMO.

The cynic in me wants to say that he had to name his BOM characters something, and the more obscure relative to his times, the easier to say it was from God...

 

[He is the way]

I agree that it is improbable, and didn't post that to suggest that he did, only like you say that it is possible. (Keep in mind that the context for this kind of question is not "Joseph Smith knew all of these things unless the defenders of the BOM prove otherwise", but rather the common apologetic of the Mormons that nobody could have known XYZ back then -- presumably including JS -- so therefore the BOM is true/an actual historical document/from God/etc.)



Ah, but the same is just as much the case with regard to the cities of the Americas and especially the Middle East that BOM-defending geographers say substantiate their book's narrative, so either it is possible to point to Nahom (an archaelogical site in Yemen) and say that this is evidence of BOM place names existing in the real world long before JS (as they do) and possible to point to Moroni as evidence of BOM personal names existing in the real world long before JS, or nobody should making these kinds of arguments. The difference between someone like me and the BOM apologists is that I recognize I'm suggesting something very far-fetched.



Isn't that true of absolutely everything? Especially the further back you go in time? JS couldn't have gotten lost down a Wikipedia/YouTube hole, after all.



The cynic in me wants to say that he had to name his BOM characters something, and the more obscure relative to his times, the easier to say it was from God...

Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes in 65 days without using any written material. He also started exactly where he left off each time without any help from anyone. It was also written in the kings English which is a major feet in and of itself. He did many things in his short lifetime that in my opinion would have been impossible without God's help.

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes in 65 days without using any written material. He also started exactly where he left off each time without any help from anyone. It was also written in the kings English which is a major feet in and of itself. He did many things in his short lifetime that in my opinion would have been impossible without God's help.

It didn't need to be with God's help.. Since Moroni was not tested, it could have easily been with Satan's help. God speaks in the language of the person He is talking to, at the time He was speaking to Him. He never uses an ancient dead language that needs to be interpreted (writing on the wall was the only time, and Daniel did not need a stone in a hat to decipher it, and that was not written to a prophet). God wouldn't of used the KJV (complete with mistakes from that version!!) Did JS still need the stone in the hat to read the KJV? It is no feet to copy the KJV. You weren't there, you have to take the word of someone who was not in the same place as JS. JS could have had sheets of the KJV hidden all over the place in his little cubicle, even in his hat! Nobody deciphers an old dead language into a KJV---they decipher into the language of His day and culture. Makes zero sense. Esp. that God would speak in the Kings' English, but include the mistakes found only in the KJV of that time. No---this is not of God. Pick up any Mark Twain book to see how English would have been spoken at that time in America and you will see how it should have been written. If God speaks to your prophets today---does he still use the King's English? Everything I've read sounds in the English of the time. None of your other prophets speak in the Kings English. Why would He have spoken only to JS in that? The English used by BY was not the Kings English. Does you current prophet use it? It all literally screams "fake!!" We have a prophet---not a shingle one of her over 100 books reads in the KJV---it is in the English used in America in her time. Just like your succeeding prophets wrote. And when they wanted to quote the bible, they copied from a KJV, just as anyone else would have done.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes in 65 days without using any written material. He also started exactly where he left off each time without any help from anyone. It was also written in the kings English which is a major feet in and of itself. He did many things in his short lifetime that in my opinion would have been impossible without God's help.

And it's just a major coinky-dink that the KJV errors just "happen" to also appear in the BOM?

What's even more fishy is the "without using any written material" part. There are these "golden plates" written in "Reformed Egyptian", yet JS never used the plates??? Instead, he supposedly uses rocks in a hat to make this "translation". What good were the plates then, if they ever existed? Furthermore, there is the problem of JS not being able to move forward with his "translation" process if what he saw in the hat was not written down correctly. Yet, there are thousands of errors with the original manuscript that has since been "corrected". Now that's a head scratcher.

That the lds cannot see the holes in credibility of this story is amazing to me.

 

[Peter1000]

Up to a point---:
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Yes, you will have works---but they do not save you--they are the end product of salvation. They follow naturally from a changed heart that loves God and all that God has created. You can not make up a list of "works to be saved by"---The works that follow will be those that the changed heart will do and that the Holy Spirit will lead you to do. God alone can judge the heart.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can do all sorts of wonderful works, but when done with the unchanged heart, will mean nothing in the eyes of God. In other words, Mother Theresa's many acts of kindness and self denial are wonderful, but if she did them in order to be saved, without any real love for God or man--they mean nothing to God and He alone will know.

The same goes for keeping the commandments. If not done out of a changed heart that loves God and man---they add up to nothing.

God is not interested in those who look good on the outside, but only in what is going on in the heart.

There is nothing else in this world that can save you but a heartfelt relationship with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and if you do not know the real ones----you do not know and worship the real God and that will get you nowhere also. Like I said---even the rocks can keep the commandments!

God is not interested in those who look good on the outside, but only in what is going on in the heart.

This is a correct statement, but I believe God looks at both. He is concerned what we do on the outside and on the inside. For instance, if we say we really really believe in him, but do not what he says, then he knows our heart is far from him.
But if we really really believe in him and do not what he wants us to do, but later we repent and we go out and do what he wants us to do, then he know our hearts are close to him.

So the outward gives a look at the inward. Now I guess there are times when we can put on a show of good works, only to do so for our own personal gain, so that our hearts are really far from him, but we look like believers. That is possible, and I am sure that happens. But I believe that is a rare occurrence. Why go out and do work for Jesus, when you really do not believe anyway? LIke I say, very rare.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Interesting. That's not the criteria I remember God using to chose David as king. But that was probably a mistranslation or something.

 

[He is the way]

It didn't need to be with God's help.. Since Moroni was not tested, it could have easily been with Satan's help. God speaks in the language of the person He is talking to, at the time He was speaking to Him. He never uses an ancient dead language that needs to be interpreted (writing on the wall was the only time, and Daniel did not need a stone in a hat to decipher it, and that was not written to a prophet). God wouldn't of used the KJV (complete with mistakes from that version!!) Did JS still need the stone in the hat to read the KJV? It is no feet to copy the KJV. You weren't there, you have to take the word of someone who was not in the same place as JS. JS could have had sheets of the KJV hidden all over the place in his little cubicle, even in his hat! Nobody deciphers an old dead language into a KJV---they decipher into the language of His day and culture. Makes zero sense. Esp. that God would speak in the Kings' English, but include the mistakes found only in the KJV of that time. No---this is not of God. Pick up any Mark Twain book to see how English would have been spoken at that time in America and you will see how it should have been written. If God speaks to your prophets today---does he still use the King's English? Everything I've read sounds in the English of the time. None of your other prophets speak in the Kings English. Why would He have spoken only to JS in that? The English used by BY was not the Kings English. Does you current prophet use it? It all literally screams "fake!!" We have a prophet---not a shingle one of her over 100 books reads in the KJV---it is in the English used in America in her time. Just like your succeeding prophets wrote. And when they wanted to quote the bible, they copied from a KJV, just as anyone else would have done.

Have you read the Book of Mormon?

 

[dzheremi]

Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes in 65 days without using any written material.

So what? Because he didn't have any written material in front of him that means he couldn't remember the names of things he had previously read? I haven't read a Garfield cartoon since I was a kid (~30 years ago), and I can still tell you that the main characters in that cartoon strip are Garfield the cat, Odie the dog, Jon the owner, Liz his girlfriend, and Nermal the smaller, cuter cat. What is this supposed to prove?

He also started exactly where he left off each time without any help from anyone.

What about the 'missing' 116 pages? Also, if you're only working on something for 65 days, I should hope you'd be able to start off in the same place every time without help from anyone, since that's not a very long period of time, and it's not like you'd have to remember it over huge stretches during which it isn't being worked on. You'd basically be returning to it maybe once every few days, or once every week, and it's not very difficult to remember where you left off over such sort spaces, particularly if you're young and able-minded, as JS was.

It was also written in the kings English

No it wasn't. It was written in imitation of the KJV, but with many mistakes (in pronoun usage, for instance), in addition to a general overkill in affected 'old timey' verb endings like -eth and -est.

which is a major feet in and of itself.

It really isn't. Thou couldest addeth suchas this to thine postings inasmuch as thy may wanteth, too. So whateth?

He did many things in his short lifetime that in my opinion would have been impossible without God's help.

And that's fine. That's your opinion. I'm just saying that as someone who knows at least a few things about linguistics and geography, I find it hard to believe that JS discovered plates written by Moroni in the hill Cumorah. Or rather, I find it hard to not notice how similar those two things are to Moroni, capital of the Comoros.

As I wrote in reply to Steve, I'm not trying to overstate the case, I'm just saying it's noticeable and it makes me wonder.

 

[twin.spin]

Who will get the mercy?:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Who will inherit eternal life:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

I find your reply here like a shell game of words or as Scripture says is: " double minded man is unstable in all his ways … like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." ~ James 1

You refer to the OT Law of Moses (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10) to substantiate your position --- only then to agree with just the opposite:

"You would be correct if the Church of Jesus Christ followed the Law of Moses and tried real hard to keep all of the commandments of the Law of Moses. Fortunately we do not." ~ Peter1000​

fyi: (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10) … is referring to the. Law. of. Moses.

 

[Peter1000]

Random, semi-related thought: Was anyone else a geography nerd as a kid, and hence already knew Moroni not as an angel but as the capital city of the Comoros (a chain of islands off the eastern coast of Africa)?

It makes me wonder if Joseph Smith also knew that. There's no reason to assume that this would've been impossible to know or find out while composing the BOM, as the islands were long known to Europeans (the Spanish had been there as early as 1503), and the city of Moroni itself was well known. The main mosque of the city was built before European contact, in 1427, so it can't be argued that this wasn't a known and settled place in JS' own time (which is usually the argument made by Mormon apologists regarding the specific BOM place names which are often said to nearly match known New England and surrounding place names).

So there is an island in an island chain that is called Comoros and it has a capital city named Moroni?
The thing that comes to my mind is that this area was settled by people that left the area of Central America, who knew about the real Cumorah and the city of Moroni, and named their new settlements after the ones they left.

Is that possible? Interesting though.

 

[He is the way]

So what? Because he didn't have any written material in front of him that means he couldn't remember the names of things he had previously read? I haven't read a Garfield cartoon since I was a kid (~30 years ago), and I can still tell you that the main characters in that cartoon strip are Garfield the cat, Odie the dog, Jon the owner, Liz his girlfriend, and Nermal the smaller, cuter cat. What is this supposed to prove?



What about the 'missing' 116 pages? Also, if you're only working on something for 65 days, I should hope you'd be able to start off in the same place every time without help from anyone, since that's not a very long period of time, and it's not like you'd have to remember it over huge stretches during which it isn't being worked on. You'd basically be returning to it maybe once every few days, or once every week, and it's not very difficult to remember where you left off over such sort spaces, particularly if you're young and able-minded, as JS was.



No it wasn't. It was written in imitation of the KJV, but with many mistakes (in pronoun usage, for instance), in addition to a general overkill in affected 'old timey' verb endings like -eth and -est.



It really isn't. Thou couldest addeth suchas this to thine postings inasmuch as thy may wanteth, too. So whateth?



And that's fine. That's your opinion. I'm just saying that as someone who knows at least a few things about linguistics and geography, I find it hard to believe that JS discovered plates written by Moroni in the hill Cumorah. Or rather, I find it hard to not notice how similar those two things are to Moroni, capital of the Comoros.

As I wrote in reply to Steve, I'm not trying to overstate the case, I'm just saying it's noticeable and it makes me wonder.

You said: "What is this supposed to prove?"

Have you ever tried to memorize large tracts of the Bible?

You said: "What about the 'missing' 116 pages?" The Book of Lehi is not part of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith lost the ability to translate for a time after those pages were lost.

You said: "I should hope you'd be able to start off in the same place every time without help from anyone"

Most authors are able to look at what they have written to see where they left off before continuing on with their book. Joseph Smith did not need to do that.

You said:
"It really isn't. Thou couldest addeth suchas this to thine postings inasmuch as thy may wanteth, too. So whateth?

LOL you crack me up.