Why Do Unbelievers Come Here?

[cvanwey]

The reason you are being asked why you are here is because your claimed reason does not match up with your actual behavior in regards to that purist. Now, you are inclined to double down on that claim, but it still won't match your behavior; so no one is going to believe it. Somehow you have convinced yourself you are here to see if your reasons are sound, part of that's true, but you cling to your conclusion at all costs, changing your past in accordance with what is required to deny a claim, and overlooking everything to the contrary by any means necessary. Now, you are inclined to double down on your claim of being genuine, but it still won't match your behavior; so no one is going to believe it. And neither should you. What your behavior does line up with, is one who wants to convince oneself that their reasons were sound, not one want's to know if their reasons are sound. Behavior speaks louder than words ever will.

Thanks for poisoning the well. Care to hear why I think YOU respond/watch my thread(s)? Prolly not...

 

[Sanoy]

Thanks for poisoning the well. Care to hear why I think YOU respond/watch my thread(s)? Prolly not...

I'm trying to reach you, but you will not accept any voice but your own. Truly, at some point, you have to stop and ask yourself - 'why do people keep saying this about me?' 'Why do I have to make a thread to respond to the numerous doubts and accusations that are consistently made of me?' I can tell you why you have to do that, because your behavior says otherwise, and behavior speaks louder than claims. Consider, that what you think you are doing, is not actually what you are doing, and your heart has it's own intentions.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Most likely reasons for this, not because it's you, but because of the environment in general...

- You were still a 'snot-nosed' naive teen, or maybe in your early twenties, maybe/likely unsure and/or feared you might be easily 'refuted' by the 'higher' wisdom of your authoritative opponent (i.e.) professors.

Not even close, but thanks for the attempted explanation.

- The same reason as when my wife drags me to church, I don't induce discord when I repeatedly hear claims in which I don't agree. I sit there, and listen...

You might want to take a look at another thread I've just recently 'put up' here. Everyone's invited to comment there, of course.

- Maybe you did not wish to 'rock the boat.'

No, it's called common human decency and a penchant for functional discourse and peaceful co-existence (if they'll let me...............and they don't always let me. )

BUT HERE, I gather us skeptics, atheists, others, have come to a 'more sound' conclusion, after looking at various sides.

And again, here, we are given carte blanche, within 'reason', to voice our concerns in a public forum.

..........................I've never been a real big fan of carte blanche where public speech is the focus and is allowed unchecked [this includes the over doing of street preaching by some Christians].

However, I am of the mind that carte blanche is good when passively but firmly engaging and studying a variety and choice of topics. That's where it all really counts, I think.

But carte blanche on a massive, pluralistic scale in the open public? NO, from my studies, that's kind of asking for social trouble of various kinds.

 

[Silmarien]

If you hang about on here, you'll get the chance to see more of atheists, which might give you a more accurate impression of us.

This is actually not true. Coming from a pretty secular background myself, I would say that a forum like this would give someone an extremely inaccurate impression of atheists. I mean, yes, I do remember doing things like mocking the Bible with fellow atheists, but it was an occasional occurrence, not an overwhelming obsession, and I've never known anyone to aggressively pick fights with believers over it.

In real life, people adapt and grow. They learn to navigate issues like religious differences, so the sort of ungoing combative behavior that you get from atheists on a site like this is really not the norm. It's the result of the anonymous message board format, I suspect, so I wish that atheists were a bit more careful about the way they were presenting themselves on a site like this. Many Christians here might not have much contact with atheists outside of the internet, and persistent bad behavior from a few really does damage the way the whole group is perceived.

 

[cvanwey]

Before I respond, please look how easy it is to attempt to smear someone's character (i.e.) poison the well:

From post #144 of a very very very recent thread:

"Why would I want to join a discussion with someone who makes up whatever they want when it suits him? Can you think of a reason? I can't.

And then look at the fact that you volunteered to engage, without prior initiation below:

You must not be very honest now, are you

I'm trying to reach you, but you will not accept any voice but your own. Truly, at some point, you have to stop and ask yourself - 'why do people keep saying this about me?' 'Why do I have to make a thread to respond to the numerous doubts and accusations that are consistently made of me?' I can tell you why you have to do that, because your behavior says otherwise, and behavior speaks louder than claims. Consider, that what you think you are doing, is not actually what you are doing, and your heart has it's own intentions.

Now to the response...

- I actually appreciate that you are trying to reach me. But do you think you are going about it the 'correct' way? Maybe instead address my points, regardless of what you think of my character? If you can trump my points, then you can pin a feather in your cap.

- I accept other voices. Please look at the thread I just finished w/ @SPF for starters.

- People don't say this about (me) per se. They ask this of non-believers. Please read the OP title and description.

I hope you will find this response, and find it well.

Thanks

 

[Sanoy]

Before I respond, please look how easy it is to attempt to smear someone's character (i.e.) poison the well:

From post #144 of a very very very recent thread:



And then look at the fact that you volunteered to engage, without prior initiation below:

You must not be very honest now, are you



Now to the response...

- I actually appreciate that you are trying to reach me. But do you think you are going about it the 'correct' way? Maybe instead address my points, regardless of what you think of my character? If you can trump my points, then you can pin a feather in your cap.

- I accept other voices. Please look at the thread I just finished w/ @SPF for starters.

- People don't say this about (me) per se. They ask this of non-believers. Please read the OP title and description.

I hope you will find this response, and find it well.

Thanks

You aren't smearing my character, I still hold to that statement. Why would anyone have a discussion with someone under those conditions?

I am not entering into the content because your behavior makes it pointless to do so. I just quoted two contradictory statements you made about your past. Neither do you listen to your respondents. Until you can remend that behavior, engaging in any sort of content would be a fruitless and colossal waste of time. I have seen no will from you to amend your behavior, only to speak over it. I'd love to have a fruitful conversation with you but it's not possible under present conditions, so all I can do is try and reach you.

 

[cvanwey]

You aren't smearing my character, I still hold to that statement. Why would anyone have a discussion with someone under those conditions?

I'm not necessary trying to. I'm pointing out an inconsistency of yours. And demonstrating that you are doing so to 'tell others' not to engage with me. Tisk tisk... I demonstrated that I can certainly do so with you as well. Quite easily. Now see below...

I am not entering into the content because your behavior makes it pointless to do so.

Why is it a 'contest'? I've pointed out how you are inconsistent, and continue to be so. This is fact. Otherwise, I would see no responses from @Sanoy here, or anywhere in my threads.

I just quoted two contradictory statements you made about your past.

I just provided a contradictory statement, without much effort. But is it really this simple????? Or is it instead that (you) 'want' it to be 'everything', to assassinate my character?

Neither do you listen to your respondents. Until you can remend that behavior, engaging in any sort of content would be a fruitless and colossal waste of time.

What I find 'fruitless', is way back when, and no, I'm not going to find the actual exchange, I asked you to rephrase a statement, because it appeared incoherent, and you stated 'no'. I then responded in the way I interpreted it. You then kept repeating the same statement. I answered one way, you meant another. That's fruitless. If anything, it would then be you whom does not listen And because of that, we now have an example of you accusing me of not listening.

And as I learned long ago... Some people wish NOT to exchange in text, because the actual meaning can get lost in translation.

I have seen no will from you to amend your behavior, only to speak over it. How many times must you be informed by others before you will consider that your pursuit has gone awry?

My purpose here is to do what the forum thread is intended. If you disagree, make a better case, or stop responding.

 

[cvanwey]

This is actually not true. Coming from a pretty secular background myself, I would say that a forum like this would give someone an extremely inaccurate impression of atheists. I mean, yes, I do remember doing things like mocking the Bible with fellow atheists, but it was an occasional occurrence, not an overwhelming obsession, and I've never known anyone to aggressively pick fights with believers over it.

In real life, people adapt and grow. They learn to navigate issues like religious differences, so the sort of ungoing combative behavior that you get from atheists on a site like this is really not the norm. It's the result of the anonymous message board format, I suspect, so I wish that atheists were a bit more careful about the way they were presenting themselves on a site like this. Many Christians here might not have much contact with atheists outside of the internet, and persistent bad behavior from a few really does damage the way the whole group is perceived.

Though I do agree with much of what you said here, may I add....

I doubt many doubters go around provoking or initiating topics of possible conflict, and inviting discord, outside this arena.

Here, if a believer is so inclined, can see where some atheists have a place to voice their objections, etc...

As for myself, I reserve such questions for here.

And as has also been stated on multiple occasions:

"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith"

 

[Sanoy]

I'm not necessary trying to. I'm pointing out an inconsistency of yours. And demonstrating that you are doing so to 'tell others' not to engage with me. Tisk tisk... I demonstrated that I can certainly do so with you as well. Quite easily. Now see below...



Why is it a 'contest'? I've pointed out how you are inconsistent, and continue to be so. This is fact. Otherwise, I would see no responses from @Sanoy here, or anywhere in my threads.



I just provided a contradictory statement, without much effort. But is it really this simple????? Or is it instead that (you) 'want' it to be 'everything', to assassinate my character?



What I find 'fruitless', is way back when, and no, I'm not going to find the actual exchange, I asked you to rephrase a statement, because it appeared incoherent, and you stated 'no'. I then responded in the way I interpreted it. You then kept repeating the same statement. I answered one way, you meant another. That's fruitless. If anything, it would then be you whom does not listen And because of that, we now have an example of you accusing me of not listening.

And as I learned long ago... Some people wish NOT to exchange in text, because the actual meaning can get lost in translation.



My purpose here is to do what the forum thread is intended. If you disagree, make a better case, or stop responding.

I don't know what you find contradictory between not wanting discuss content, and wanting to reach you to amend your behavior so we can discuss content. And I don't know why you are asking about a contest. Simply put, you continue to talk over what is being stated to you. I'm not here to smear you, you alone can achieve that. I am here to reach you, which has been a failure, so I will leave this for the moment.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't know what you find contradictory between not wanting discuss content, and wanting to reach you to amend your behavior so we can discuss content. And I don't know why you are asking about a contest. Simply put, you continue to talk over what is being stated to you. I'm not here to smear you, you alone can achieve that. I am here to reach you, which has been a failure, so I will leave this for the moment.

Please really think about anything you just said, and then weigh those statements with the answers I just provided.

 

[cvanwey]

Not even close, but thanks for the attempted explanation.

You're welcome. I gave it a shot

You might want to take a look at another thread I've just recently 'put up' here. Everyone's invited to comment there, of course.

Which one is it?

No, it's called common human decency and a penchant for functional discourse and peaceful co-existence (if they'll let me...............and they don't always let me. )

Might I remind you that this arena specifically, is a warranted place for 'discord'. But I do agree there needs to be boundaries Hence, the forum rules... And might I also remind you, that from time to time, we (both) have likely been 'reprimanded' in this very forum But you know, as they say, 'no religion or politics at the dinner table.'

 

[andy b]

[QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 74412682, member: 409550

BUT HERE, I gather us skeptics, atheists, others, have come to a 'more sound' conclusion, after looking at various sides.

And again, here, we are given carte blanche, within 'reason', to voice our concerns in a public forum.[/QUOTE]

Hi brother

Public forum yes but it's predominantly a Christian public forum ....tell me do you visit Muslim or Hindu other Faith's forums and post ......if not you have an affinity with Christian beliefs which in reality you already know or you would be here lol......

 

[eleos1954]

if they don't believe, why does it matter to them if others do believe?

why waste time "correcting"
if they believe they will die & cease to exist, shouldn't they be busy living their limited time alive?

They enjoy arguing/debating ... some are curious.

 

[cvanwey]

They enjoy arguing/debating ... some are curious.

Sure. But might I add... It takes two to tango. Another legit question to posit might be.... Why do (some) Christians hang out in a specific forum arena, which invites such possible discord? (i.e.) to 'defend your faith against unbelievers.'

 

[cvanwey]

[QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 74412682, member: 409550

BUT HERE, I gather us skeptics, atheists, others, have come to a 'more sound' conclusion, after looking at various sides.

And again, here, we are given carte blanche, within 'reason', to voice our concerns in a public forum.

Hi brother

Public forum yes but it's predominantly a Christian public forum ....tell me do you visit Muslim or Hindu other Faith's forums and post ......if not you have an affinity with Christian beliefs which in reality you already know or you would be here lol......[/QUOTE]

No, for the reason mentioned in the OP. I'm surrounded with Christians, whom make claims. If I was around the later, in which you mentioned, and I had strong objections, and wished to locate a place to present those objections, then I may be so inclined.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That may be, but truthfully, when I was going to school to attempt to become "more enlightened" and "educated" on various topics, I didn't also take with me an acerbic, demeaning, critical attitude to display toward my professors or my fellow students.............such as is sometimes shown by atheists here on CF.

No, when I was attending the university, I typically just waltzed into each class that I took, found a seat, passively listened and more or less proactively cooperated with learning about things that I many times either didn't agree with or even had little vested interests in taking out of the class itself. I'm just often left wondering why atheists don't do something similar here if and when they say that "all they want is to become 'more learned' about what Christians in their various theologies think about such-and-such a topic."

But we're not in a university. Or a school, or a country club, or at a friend's dinner party. We're in a forum for debating, and specifically the section which is set up "for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith."
Arguing is what we're supposed to be doing here. It's why we came here. Yes, there are rules to prevent outright antisocial behaviour, and rightly so, because it tends to be detrimental to communication. But telling someone they're wrong, and why? That's our purpose on the Christian Apologetics forum.

Personally, if I were to go either to an atheist forum and/or sit in on a weekly atheist club meeting, I'd tend to keep to myself and attempt to NOT be caustic to those around me in any interlocutions I might make with the folks who's cup of tea that forum or club happens to be. I sure wouldn't be using pejoratives against them on their own home turf ................ I mean, there is a social context to these activities and interactions, and even as a Christian, it doesn't take long for me to see if and when I might be seen by others as an intruder in the mind ...

Good for you. And if I were to go to a church service, I would certainly not roll my eyes, laugh at the funny bits in the sermon or ask people if they seriously believed this nonsense. I would sit quietly and respect the group's wishes.
On the other hand - if a church were enlightened enough to invite an atheist to their group, for the purpose of testing their faith and seeking out weaknesses in their arguments, I would behave there much as I do now. And if an atheist group were to invite you to attend for the express purpose of debating them - well, you'd debate them, wouldn't you?
In short: we are here to argue politely. And that doesn't mean we can't tell people they're wrong, not reading or comprehending, or in denial.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

if they don't believe, why does it matter to them if others do believe?
why waste time "correcting" if they believe they will die & cease to exist, shouldn't they be busy living their limited time alive?

Is "because I like to" not a good enough answer? Surely everyone is allowed to choose their own form of relaxation.
Still, off the top of my head, here are some reasons.
It amuses me to see the mistakes Christians make. Really. It's funny. Uncharitable, perhaps, and I try not to laugh at them to their faces, but a lot of Christians do say very silly things.
I find it enjoyable to debate with people.
It's good mental exercise to pit your wits against someone else.
It's doing a service to the world to let people know that there are good arguments against Christianity, and the arguments for it are very poor.

And one final point: I'm here to help.
As I just noted to Philo, this is the Christian Apologetics section. I was invited here. There's a big sign at the front door asking Christians to come in and have their faith tested. In other words, walk into the lion's den.
Growl.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This is actually not true. Coming from a pretty secular background myself, I would say that a forum like this would give someone an extremely inaccurate impression of atheists. I mean, yes, I do remember doing things like mocking the Bible with fellow atheists, but it was an occasional occurrence, not an overwhelming obsession, and I've never known anyone to aggressively pick fights with believers over it.

In real life, people adapt and grow. They learn to navigate issues like religious differences, so the sort of ungoing combative behavior that you get from atheists on a site like this is really not the norm. It's the result of the anonymous message board format, I suspect, so I wish that atheists were a bit more careful about the way they were presenting themselves on a site like this. Many Christians here might not have much contact with atheists outside of the internet, and persistent bad behavior from a few really does damage the way the whole group is perceived.

You make good points there, Silmarien, and I agree with you in part. Yes, most atheists who don't frequent these forums don't behave like this in public. But then, most atheists on these forums don't behave like this in public either. That's because this is a debate forum. Here, we are supposed to be arguing, and you're supposed to be arguing back. It's what the forum is for. To characterise the atheists who speak here as having "an overwhelming obsession" with Christianity is to miss the point. Their job is to have an overwhelming obsession with Christianity, while they are on this forum. Telling them they shouldn't is like going in to a maths lecture and interrupting the professor to say, ""Do you have to talk about numbers all the time? Don't be so one-sided! You should develop your character more!"

And saying that atheists are setting themselves up for failure by being combative seems close to what has come to be known as "concern trolling". Myself, I think it's great that people who might be having doubts about Christianity can come to a place like this and see, perhaps for the first time in their lives, that there are actually people who are happy to point out the flaws and problems and errors of Christianity. Indeed, there are a good number of people I've encountered who say that seeing atheists debating Christians is what helped them along the course to atheism. Including a number of atheists on this very forum who first came here as Christians. There was a fairly recent thread which you may remember, on whether the discussions here make you want to be a Christian. The overwhelming consensus, by poll and discussion, from all sides, was that the Christians here were doing more harm than good.

So you're right, Silmarien. If Christine hangs about here she will not be meeting a typical atheist, and I accept the correction. But she will at least have a much better chance of learning about what atheists believe. Since she says she's only met one atheist before, who didn't want to talk to her about religion, I think the experience might help broaden her mind, and that's always a good thing for anyone.

 

[klutedavid]

Quite simply, Philo, I speak my mind. If something seems wrong I say so. And when you talk to people who believe in an invisible, unverified, self-contradictory entity, a great many of their conclusions tend to be mistaken because they are based on an unsound foundation.

This is the point that you keep repeating, over and over, again.

And when you talk to people who believe in an invisible, unverified...blah, blah.

Christianity was never about an invisible God, Christianity is just the opposite.

God in human form (Jesus, the Word) that you could speak to, listen to, and hug if you wanted to.

Unverified you say?

The whole point of the plethora of authors in the Bible is the widespread, encounters with the living God.

You need to take a step back and rethink Christianity. Over 500 witnesses of the risen Christ!

 

[Moral Orel]

This is actually not true. Coming from a pretty secular background myself, I would say that a forum like this would give someone an extremely inaccurate impression of atheists. I mean, yes, I do remember doing things like mocking the Bible with fellow atheists, but it was an occasional occurrence, not an overwhelming obsession, and I've never known anyone to aggressively pick fights with believers over it.

In real life, people adapt and grow. They learn to navigate issues like religious differences, so the sort of ungoing combative behavior that you get from atheists on a site like this is really not the norm. It's the result of the anonymous message board format, I suspect, so I wish that atheists were a bit more careful about the way they were presenting themselves on a site like this. Many Christians here might not have much contact with atheists outside of the internet, and persistent bad behavior from a few really does damage the way the whole group is perceived.

Atheists are combative in the Apologetics sub-forum because it's set up for debate, and debates are word-fights. Of course us atheists are here picking fights. If we start a thread that doesn't challenge a theist belief then we're technically outside of the guidelines of the sub-forum.

"All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith."

I think most of us atheists spend most of our time doing other things besides hanging out here. I have a lot of fun arguing, but it's no "obsession". While we're hanging out in a boxing ring, we spend most of our time boxing. It's a little ridiculous to try and discern what kind of a person we are outside the ring based on that, so when people do, that ain't on us, sorry not sorry.

Can some of us be a little less insulting? Of course. Could some of us be a little smarter? Definitely. But should we pick less fights in a forum set up for debate? That's an unreasonable request.