Christianity (In a Nutshell)?

cvanwey

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This ends now. You are twisting what I have said to fit your narrative and you are unwilling to listen and VERY unwilling to consider what I've said since you pose a question to us - believers.

This is NOT how apologetics work. You want to have a real apologetics event, you should really read Paul's letters. He is a good example of what real apologetics is.

Keep going around in circles if you want, but I am not playing a game.

I would have to disagree. I feel I'm engaging and responding to your direct interventions. I'm sorry if you 'feel' I'm twisting things. That is not my intention.

To reiterate, I can choose to read the Bible, again and again. I might even begin to convince myself the claims in the Bible are real; whether it be because of prior outside influences, persuasion from others, points in the Bible itself - which make me believe, or other.... But that's not the point really....

My point being, yes, I can choose to read it. And yes, I can choose to try and believe it. However, I'm either going to believe it, or not. I can't just simply 'will' it true for me, if I don't find what it states compelling or 'truthful'.

Listen, I have absolutely no doubt you believe in it. None at at. MY point, is that I most likely followed many of the same paths as you... And I came out on the other side as a non-believer.

Here is the crux...

If I tried in earnest, and don't believe, according to John 3:16-18, I've committed an irreconcilable 'sin' against God. One of which will send me to hell apparently.

I don't find that belief as a 'moral' trait, but instead, an amoral one. And God is going to punish me for an action I cannot control.

I'll give you another example...

You witness a murder. Others witness it with you. Can you MAKE yourself believe you never saw it? Well, maybe if you suffered amnesia, brain damage, or other. Otherwise, you cannot will yourself to NOW believe you did not witness that murder, right?

I again ask you, in earnest... Is it a SIN to read the Bible, as you have, and not believe it's claims? Because apparently, according to the Bible, it is.

I find this rationale bazaar? Thoughts?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And as I already told you repeatedly, if prayer works, then pray for God to provide me with evidence of His mere existence. I can then make the (choice) of whether or not to repent.
Ok. I will. We both know that in the final analysis, that's all any of this comes down to for you anyway. All this arguing over this or that debatable point is useless due to the nature of your particular grievance, none of which I have any fault in. So, pray I shall, and I do hope the Lord opens some great things up for you in your life in the near future. I really do. :blacksunrays:



 
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cvanwey

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Ok. I will. We both know that in the final analysis, that's all any of this comes down to for you anyway. All this arguing over this or that debatable point is useless due to the nature of your particular grievance, none of which I have any fault in. So, pray I shall, and I do hope the Lord opens some great things up for you in your life in the near future. I really do. :blacksunrays:

As I believe @Moral Orel told you, or maybe it was @Nihilist Virus , I don't quite recall....? Maybe you should stay out of the 'apologists' section. What us agnostics, doubters, atheists, etc are doing here, is exactly what is intended. We are pressing your faith and challenging your beliefs.

And BTW, I liked your video in another thread. You know, the one about the 'prince and the monster'. Just seems like we wake up your 'monster' a little too often :)

But I will give you one last shot, at least...

Do you acknowledge that....

1. You cannot will belief.
2. If I read the Bible, and don't believe it, God will condemn me.
3. Sin is irrelevant, because a reformed Christian murderer still has a chance, while a non-believer has NO change what-so-ever.

Come on man, you already 'gave' me the 'victory', in post #67. Just at least concede the 'why', as to how Christianity doesn't make sense to (me) :)

Peace out.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As I believe @Moral Orel told you, or maybe it was @Nihilist Virus , I don't quite recall....? Maybe you should stay out of the 'apologists' section. What us agnostics, doubters, atheists, etc are doing here, is exactly what is intended. We are pressing your faith and challenging your beliefs.

And BTW, I liked your video in another thread. You know, the one about the 'prince and the monster'. Just seems like we wake up your 'monster' a little too often :)

But I will give you one last shot, at least...

Do you acknowledge that....

1. You cannot will belief.
2. If I read the Bible, and don't believe it, God will condemn me.
3. Sin is irrelevant, because a reformed Christian murderer still has a chance, while a non-believer has NO change what-so-ever.

Come on man, you already 'gave' me the 'victory', in post #67. Just at least concede the 'why', as to how Christianity doesn't make sense to (me) :)

Peace out.

No, because of my peanut butter and jelly sandwich analogy. So, no, I'm going to assert that for just about anyone, there is still "something" he/she can do to help his/her unbelief. But again, I'm done arguing with you. I'm just gong to pray for you instead. :cool:
 
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cvanwey

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No, because of my peanut butter and jelly sandwich analogy. So, no, I'm going to assert that for just about anyone, there is still "something" he/she can do to help his/her unbelief.

Okay, let's go with this a bit further... What if I do everything in my known 'power' to try and believe a resurrected Jesus is real, but never do. I continue to try, as I may also with Vishnu, Thor, Odin, and others, until I die of natural causes. The answer is simple... If John 3:16-18 is correct, I am condemned, right? The answer here is yes :)

Thus, as stated in point number 2.) I can read the Bible over and over, and maybe even do many others things to stir up belief.... But if I'm not convinced at death, it's no bueno for this chap, right? Again, the answer we are looking for here is yes.


And thus, I ask, is not believing something a 'sin'? Rhetorical... Let's let that stew/marinate for a moment...

If I told you I saw an alien, and give you mounds of evidence, and you still don't believe me, is that a sin? I think not. Maybe I can label you a hyper-skeptic, or something, but not a 'sinner.' It is instead absent from any moral arbitration, quite frankly. Belief/non-belief is neither moral nor immoral, it's amoral, right? Again the answer we are looking for here is yes.


And yet, God's barometer is to send someone to hell, for eternity, for something that is both amoral, and a cognitive event they cannot control.

Seems odd, thoughts?


But again, I'm done arguing with you. I'm just gong to pray for you instead. :cool:

An effective argument requires that you engage in the actual discussion. Otherwise, it's merely one-sided.

And again, what exactly are you praying for? If such prayers seem to work, can one of those prayers be for Him to provide me with the knowledge of His mere existence, or does prayer 'not work that way?'
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Okay, let's go with this a bit further... What if I do everything in my known 'power' to try and believe a resurrected Jesus is real, but never do. I continue to try, as I may also with Vishnu, Thor, Odin, and others, until I die of natural causes. The answer is simple... If John 3:16-18 is correct, I am condemned, right? The answer here is yes :)

Thus, as stated in point number 2.) I can read the Bible over and over, and maybe even do many others things to stir up belief.... But if I'm not convinced at death, it's no bueno for this chap, right? Again, the answer we are looking for here is yes.
Not necessarily. (see below)

And thus, I ask, is not believing something a 'sin'? Rhetorical... Let's let that stew/marinate for a moment...

If I told you I saw an alien, and give you mounds of evidence, and you still don't believe me, is that a sin? I think not. Maybe I can label you a hyper-skeptic, or something, but not a 'sinner.' It is instead absent from any moral arbitration, quite frankly. Belief/non-belief is neither moral nor immoral, it's amoral, right? Again the answer we are looking for here is yes.

And yet, God's barometer is to send someone to hell, for eternity, for something that is both amoral, and a cognitive event they cannot control.

Seems odd, thoughts?
No. I don't think what you're saying is odd, but I do think you're assuming that God's judgment at the Great White Throne will only be meted out by whatever epistemic principles and processes that you, as cvanwey, are aware of and can conceive of. Although I wouldn't say that what follows in my writing here should be seen as good news, it may still at least be seen at "better new" in that neither your nor I know ALL of what will go into God's final judgment of us as He we encounter His ALL SEEING EYES. If some of us were born with or saddles with certain challenges in our brains and lives that even the world's best psychiatrists and sociologists couldn't possibly know about just short of being gods themselves, then there is the potential for someone to perhaps be judged with the benefits of the Mercy and Grace of Christ that He is planning on providing to everyone.

And who knows? Maybe the Lord will give some kind of limited 2nd chance after our deaths here, but I think that whatever it could be, it will be limited and not unconditional. Besides, I'd hate to think my own mother, rest her soul, will go to Hell for all Eternity despite the fact that she did some morally stupid stuff due to her severe mental illness. So, call me biased, but I do think the Lord will Know EXACTLY who and why is at fault or not at fault for their spiritual conditions and no one under HIS gaze with ever fall through the cracks of His love and mercy if they truly wish to be reconciled to Him.

An effective argument requires that you engage in the actual discussion. Otherwise, it's merely one-sided.

And again, what exactly are you praying for? If such prayers seem to work, can one of those prayers be for Him to provide me with the knowledge of His mere existence, or does prayer 'not work that way?'
I can pray for what you, in general, would like me to pray for within the limits of my own understanding about what prayer is and could do. And remember, way, way, way back when you first came on here at CF, that is what I indicated to you at that time. But, for now, that is neither here nor there; I'm just saying that if you have something specific you'd like for me to pray about then tell me. If not, then I'll pray for you according to my own best lights. ;)
 
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holo

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What made me be a believer is by choice. I chose to give God a shot and I surrendered all my life to Him. If you read through the New Testament it is also shown there that belief is by choice.
To a certain extent. But there are also lots of accounts in the bible of belief, and even unbelief, clearly NOT being a choice. For example, did Saul have a real "choice" to believe when God blinded him and threw him off his horse and showed him what he would have to suffer as Paul? Paul himself wrote about how the saints aren't saints because they freely chose to believe, but because God had ordained them to, even before he created the world. Also, all the stuff about all things working together for the glory of God and his plan being fulfilled etc. To me, it looks like the bible says that even though things happen as the result of people's choices, what they will choose is already ordained by God. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Spirit draws them, right? And who can resist the hand of God? In short, I'm not convinced that the idea of free will is a biblical concept at all - but then I'll be the first to admit that this is my personal interpretation which is the result of (among many other things) the teachings I've been exposed to, my ability to discern the meaning of a particular interpretations of translations of versions(!) of the bible.
 
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public hermit

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My OP is not meant to read as (2) premises, and then a conclusion.

You may not have intended it to be considered as premises and conclusion, but any assertion that tries to make an argument-i.e. any assertion in support of a conclusion(s)-is subject to analysis as a premise or a conclusion (depending on the context). I stand by my analysis, but we can set it to the side. :)

1. Belief appears neither a 'moral' or 'immoral' concept. 2. Nor, is belief a choice. Thus, God's fix is based upon two conditions completely absent of any moral application. (i.e.):

I agree with (2), in the sense that mere belief is not a choice. We believe whatever "strikes" us as true, and likewise with what we don't believe. But, I don't hold that belief is identical to faith. Faith often includes belief. But, faith always includes trust. It is one thing to believe God exists. It is another thing to trust God as Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer. At any rate, belief and faith are related but not identical.

I will disagree with (1). Belief can be moral. The fact that I believe Billie Holliday is the greatest jazz singer of all time may have no moral importance. That is my preference, and nothing really stands or falls on account of it. But, imagine a scenario where someone truly believes something is evil, when in fact it is good. Not only is that belief moral by nature of its content, but it is the kind of belief that informs moral action.

Some beliefs inform what we do, morally. Believing the truth is a lie, is a moral act. There is a responsibility that comes with belief. And it is a moral responsibility. So, the general statement that belief is not a moral concept is up for debate.

You cannot control what you believe, without 'just cause'

If I understand you here, I agree. Again, I agree that we can't simply change our beliefs on a whim. We have to have reasons for changing beliefs. That I agree with. But, we can influence the beliefs we encounter, how we encounter them, what we investigate and what we neglect to investigate, and so on. We can put ourselves in a position to believe (or disbelieve) any given proposition or belief. Some beliefs aren't going to give way as easy as others might. My belief that I don't have two right hands is pretty solid and is likely to remain that way. Religious and philosophical beliefs are somewhat more malleable, but they still have their pull.

If I'm somehow w/o 'sin', but do not believe in the existence of a resurrected Jesus, it is not possible to enter heaven.

If I commit 'sin', but believe in a resurrected Jesus, it is still possible to enter heaven.

As a whole, I believe this is an interesting logical argument. If one assumes your premises, then the argument has some appeal. Here is your initial argument (broken into two arguments for easy analysis) as quoted above.

Argument A:
1. S is sinless.
2. S does not believe in the resurrection.
Conclusion: It is not possible for S to enter heaven.

Argument B:
1. S is not-sinless (i.e. S sins)
2. S does believe in the resurrection.
Conclusion: It is possible to enter heaven

With the appropriate qualifications I would say Argument B is the gospel. It is possible for humans who sin and yet believe in the resurrection to enter heaven. With qualification, I would say that's basically the gospel. The main qualification I make is how we are understanding "believe." I tried to show above, faith is not just a cognitive assent, like mere belief. Faith is a transformative trust that has ontological consequences. Moreover, faith is moral in the strongest possible sense because it is a matter of life and death.

Concerning argument A: I stand by my previous observation that the compatability of premises 1 and 2 is questionable. If the sin condition is an ontological condition, then an extraordinary event has to happen to change it. If sin were simply a matter of choosing right from wrong, then something like the incarnation, coupled with death and resurrection, seems a bit overkill.

And this is my basic critique of your whole argument. It has some logical interest, but only because it takes a flattened view of reality, morality, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't say that to be mean, it just is. The Christain view is more robust than simply choosing between right and wrong.

3. Is this how God's 'justice' works?

I wouldn't say that is how God's justice works. Here is how I see God's justice. God created life, so that life would flourish in the divine presence. The goal of God's justice is always life. Justice succeeds when flourishing life happens. Sin is destructive by nature. Sin succeeds when it destroys. Ultimately, sin is destructive of the life God created for the divine presence. And yet, people love sin. God's creatures love evil. What is God supposed to do with that?

The consequences of sin is death. Should God simply let his creation and it's creatures be destroyed? It would be just if God let humans destroy themselves with the sin they so love. That would be God allowing the consequences to naturally follow the cause. But, that isn't what God does. Instead, God, in the Person of the Son, takes the destructive destiny of sin upon God's own Self. That's divine justice, which oddly enough looks like mercy.

I think you have skipped a lot of revealed truth to get to that place where you start worrying about who's going to heaven and who isn't. If you argument is simply a logical exercise, then I commend you. It's pretty good. If your OP is more in reference to your own experience and the beliefs you hold, I recommend prayerful study. And, keep in mind, the one who is to be our judge is the same one who gave his life for us.
 
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Swan7

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To a certain extent. But there are also lots of accounts in the bible of belief, and even unbelief, clearly NOT being a choice. For example, did Saul have a real "choice" to believe when God blinded him and threw him off his horse and showed him what he would have to suffer as Paul? Paul himself wrote about how the saints aren't saints because they freely chose to believe, but because God had ordained them to, even before he created the world. Also, all the stuff about all things working together for the glory of God and his plan being fulfilled etc. To me, it looks like the bible says that even though things happen as the result of people's choices, what they will choose is already ordained by God. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Spirit draws them, right? And who can resist the hand of God? In short, I'm not convinced that the idea of free will is a biblical concept at all - but then I'll be the first to admit that this is my personal interpretation which is the result of (among many other things) the teachings I've been exposed to, my ability to discern the meaning of a particular interpretations of translations of versions(!) of the bible.

Oh yes, it is a choice. No certain extent. We all have free will given to us by God, the matter is whether or not to follow Him.

Yes, Paul had a choice and he absolutely chose without a doubt in his mind to follow the risen Christ. He could have chosen not to, but that is not the choice he went with.
Acts 9:3-4 - Now as he proceeded, it happened that when he approached Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

He wasn't thrown, as you say, but he fell off because of the brightness of the light around him.
I don't recall Paul ever saying that saints are not saints.... Paul does say this though: Romans 1:7 and Philippians 1:1
We are all called to become saints which means a choice to either follow Christ or not, but God wants all to be reconciled to Him.
I think you might be confusing ordained with predestination. All this means is that God knows who are His since the beginning of creation. God knows the hearts of mankind.
If you mean God's plans cannot be thwarted, you're right. God hardened the heart of Pharaoh to fulfill His plan to free His people, but He did so wanting them (Egypt) to repent and follow God.

Allow me to put it this way to better understand: God shows off his power and authority to the one He desires, which is mankind. Kind of like how a man goes after a woman he likes.

But the choice is still always there for all.

Being ordained by God means "to appoint to office" and "order" - which are things about God and His creation. It has nothing to do with a person's choice, but rather what they do. Trump has been "appointed to office" as a secular example.

John 6:44-45
The context is Jesus was speaking with the Jews and they were grumbling with one another about what He said previously.
For the answer to that question you have to read the next verse. God will always explain Himself if one asks.
No one can resist the hand of God because His plans will not be thwarted. There seems to be confusion between choice and God's plans.

holo said:
In short, I'm not convinced that the idea of free will is a biblical concept at all - but then I'll be the first to admit that this is my personal interpretation which is the result of (among many other things) the teachings I've been exposed to, my ability to discern the meaning of a particular interpretations of translations of versions(!) of the bible.

That's fine, I can't change your mind. You've already admitted this is by your own interpretation, and I can tell you with certainty that the information I have been given is from God. I have tried to interpret my own way too once, that didn't go well at all.
To get wisdom from God we have to admit our own failures to Him and allow Him to live in us and through us, meaning we have to surrender to Him and ask. Matthew 7:7
My own testimony involves me asking Him what language He speaks in the Bible and for me to understand what He is saying in His Word. :yellowheart:
Proverbs 3:5-6
 
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cvanwey

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Not necessarily. (see below)

No. I don't think what you're saying is odd, but I do think you're assuming that God's judgment at the Great White Throne will only be meted out by whatever epistemic principles and processes that you, as cvanwey, are aware of and can conceive of. Although I wouldn't say that what follows in my writing here should be seen as good news, it may still at least be seen at "better new" in that neither your nor I know ALL of what will go into God's final judgment of us as He we encounter His ALL SEEING EYES. If some of us were born with or saddles with certain challenges in our brains and lives that even the world's best psychiatrists and sociologists couldn't possibly know about just short of being gods themselves, then there is the potential for someone to perhaps be judged with the benefits of the Mercy and Grace of Christ that He is planning on providing to everyone.


And who knows? Maybe the Lord will give some kind of limited 2nd chance after our deaths here, but I think that whatever it could be, it will be limited and not unconditional. Besides, I'd hate to think my own mother, rest her soul, will go to Hell for all Eternity despite the fact that she did some morally stupid stuff due to her severe mental illness. So, call me biased, but I do think the Lord will Know EXACTLY who and why is at fault or not at fault for their spiritual conditions and no one under HIS gaze with ever fall through the cracks of His love and mercy if they truly wish to be reconciled to Him.

Following down this line of logic, it sounds like you are saying that someone, such as myself, (trying as they might have for decades to believe unsuccessfully), suffers from some unidentified deficiency? Meaning, I am unable to believe, hence, God might grant me some type of 'exception', or mercy?

This raises concern. Why? Because we have the possibility of the following:

- You might find a verse in the Bible which 'verifies' your assessment.
- You would then need to square that finding AGAINST John 3:16-18

Quite the conundrum...

For now, let's discard altered brains, mental illness, Alzheimers, death before 'enlightenment', etc... Gets too messy. Let's keep it 'vanilla' for now :) Your standard human of average intelligence, whatever that means.... Both try, as they might, to believe.... One does, and one does not.

In doing so, you believe, I currently don't. Are you saying that, if I die remaining an unbeliever, God may grant me some special type of mercy? If so, please demonstrate the verse(s). Again, keeping in mind what I stated above about the conundrum. Otherwise, this might instead be post hoc invented, or wishful thinking...?


I can pray for what you, in general, would like me to pray for within the limits of my own understanding about what prayer is and could do. And remember, way, way, way back when you first came on here at CF, that is what I indicated to you at that time. But, for now, that is neither here nor there; I'm just saying that if you have something specific you'd like for me to pray about then tell me. If not, then I'll pray for you according to my own best lights. ;)

Simple. Pray for God to reveal His presence to me, so I no longer doubt His specific said existence. I will then be in the boat as millions or billions, whom already believe, and have freewill to accept or decline His wishes.
 
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cvanwey

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You may not have intended it to be considered as premises and conclusion, but any assertion that tries to make an argument-i.e. any assertion in support of a conclusion(s)-is subject to analysis as a premise or a conclusion (depending on the context). I stand by my analysis, but we can set it to the side. :)

Fair enough

I agree with (2), in the sense that mere belief is not a choice. We believe whatever "strikes" us as true, and likewise with what we don't believe. But, I don't hold that belief is identical to faith. Faith often includes belief. But, faith always includes trust. It is one thing to believe God exists. It is another thing to trust God as Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer. At any rate, belief and faith are related but not identical.

I agree that the word 'faith' means differing things to differing people. It can encompass trust and belief as well. But if someone interchanges the word 'faith' with 'belief' specifically, then they would not be able to control THAT instance of faith as well, as you already conceded above. But I get what you are saying, see below....

I will disagree with (1). Belief can be moral. The fact that I believe Billie Holliday is the greatest jazz singer of all time may have no moral importance. That is my preference, and nothing really stands or falls on account of it. But, imagine a scenario where someone truly believes something is evil, when in fact it is good. Not only is that belief moral by nature of its content, but it is the kind of belief that informs moral action.

Please don't bring 'morals' into this. It's a loose/loose battle for both sides - (believers/non-believers) :) i.e. The Bible condones/allows slavery, inequality of women vs men, and condemns gay partners. All of which are illegal mostly now universally. It's all relative ;)

If I understand you here, I agree. Again, I agree that we can't simply change our beliefs on a whim. We have to have reasons for changing beliefs. That I agree with. But, we can influence the beliefs we encounter, how we encounter them, what we investigate and what we neglect to investigate, and so on. We can put ourselves in a position to believe (or disbelieve) any given proposition or belief. Some beliefs aren't going to give way as easy as others might. My belief that I don't have two right hands is pretty solid and is likely to remain that way. Religious and philosophical beliefs are somewhat more malleable, but they still have their pull.

Okay, but in my case, I attempted to truly believe in this set of claims for decades, cannot, and have recently stopped trying. According to the Bible, I'm condemned. Is this 'just'? Again, you already agreed that belief is not a choice. I actively tried. And heck, now I'm here stating my case to Christians, and not a one of you have even began to refute my points. What does this tell you? I'm either mistaken, or, maybe on to something....

As a whole, I believe this is an interesting logical argument. If one assumes your premises, then the argument has some appeal. Here is your initial argument (broken into two arguments for easy analysis) as quoted above.

Argument A:
1. S is sinless.
2. S does not believe in the resurrection.
Conclusion: It is not possible for S to enter heaven.

Argument B:
1. S is not-sinless (i.e. S sins)
2. S does believe in the resurrection.
Conclusion: It is possible to enter heaven

With the appropriate qualifications I would say Argument B is the gospel. It is possible for humans who sin and yet believe in the resurrection to enter heaven. With qualification, I would say that's basically the gospel. The main qualification I make is how we are understanding "believe." I tried to show above, faith is not just a cognitive assent, like mere belief. Faith is a transformative trust that has ontological consequences. Moreover, faith is moral in the strongest possible sense because it is a matter of life and death.

Great, but at the end of the day, I don't believe, try as I might. I just don't buy the story line. So now what? If I'm wrong, God would know I was lying, if I simply claimed 'faith' in place of evidence or being convinced, right? So again, now what?

And here's another take....

Again, sin is irrelevant. Without belief, it does not matter how much you sin, or resist sin. You have NO chance. Belief is the catalyst. Without belief, you are doomed. On the flip side, I could be a rapist, later repent sincerely, never rape again, but continue to commit some 'sin', because I'm human, and still likely go to heaven, as long as I remain a believing and repenting Christian. Again, belief is the dividing line. Doesn't matter how you slice it, 'faith', belief, trust, or other....


I wouldn't say that is how God's justice works. Here is how I see God's justice. God created life, so that life would flourish in the divine presence. The goal of God's justice is always life. Justice succeeds when flourishing life happens. Sin is destructive by nature. Sin succeeds when it destroys. Ultimately, sin is destructive of the life God created for the divine presence. And yet, people love sin. God's creatures love evil. What is God supposed to do with that?

Again, as stated above, let's leave out the 'moral' aspect. Very messing, and no one will win ;)

If you argument is simply a logical exercise, then I commend you. It's pretty good.

Thank you

If your OP is more in reference to your own experience and the beliefs you hold, I recommend prayerful study. And, keep in mind, the one who is to be our judge is the same one who gave his life for us.

Been there, done that, now what?
 
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public hermit

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Been there, done that, now what?

I have a sneaking suspicion that will always be your final answer. I wish you the best, my friend. And, I wish you God's grace and peace. You offer a good argument. To what end, I don't know.
 
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cloudyday2

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My point is that it seems abundantly clear that Jesus thinks it is a sin, not to believe in this historical claim.
Of course Jesus is quoted saying divergent things (IMO), but in the verses I quoted it seems that Jesus is saying something very different from what you claim above. Jesus is saying that HE is the perfect image of the Father, so a person's reaction to Jesus is a proxy for their reaction to the Father. A person with an evil soul will react negatively to Jesus and all his teachings, and a person with a good soul will react positively. Jesus is gathering the good souls into the barn (the wheat) and leaving the evil souls to be burned (the tares). This is a bit like Christian gnosticism. Some humans have a spark of God's spirit within them, and that spark reacts positively when it sees Jesus the perfect image of God. (Reading the gospels is a form of seeing Jesus. Presumably a good soul will react positively to the gospels and an evil soul will react negatively.)

In other words, some people have this spark of God but do not realize that fact. They live like ordinary carnal humans. Then they see the image of God in Jesus and the gospel, and the spark awakens like a seed in water. The seed begins to grow and the person follows the teachings of Jesus to return home to God.

But other people don't have this spark of God, and the gospel is silliness to them.

Here is a similar quote from John 10:14 RSV
"I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me"
Bible Gateway passage: John 10 - Revised Standard Version
 
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cvanwey

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I have a sneaking suspicion that will always be your final answer. I wish you the best, my friend. And, I wish you God's grace and peace. You offer a good argument. To what end, I don't know.

I thank you for your complete honesty! Thus, I have to ask you....

I would assume you agree that God's claim is pretty straight forward, in John 3:16-18, right? Assuming your answer is yes, I pose one final thought experiment.

A pair of twins are born. They do all the same things, go to the same events, read the same books, listen to the same teachers, go to the same Christian church, read the Bible multiple times - cover to cover, and both die. One as a believer, and one wishing they could have believed in the story line, but just couldn't.

Hence, I have ONE question I hope you may answer...

WHY is this person 'sinning'?

God must consider unbelief a sin, via John 3:16-18, but for the life of me, I see no rationale as to why or how not believing in a story line is considered an actual sin???
 
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public hermit

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I thank you for your complete honesty! Thus, I have to ask you....

I would assume you agree that God's claim is pretty straight forward, in John 3:16-18, right? Assuming your answer is yes, I pose one final thought experiment.

A pair of twins are born. They do all the same things, go to the same events, read the same books, listen to the same teachers, go to the same Christian church, read the Bible multiple times - cover to cover, and both die. One as a believer, and one wishing they could have believed in the story line, but just couldn't.

Hence, I have ONE question I hope you may answer...

WHY is this person 'sinning'?

God must consider unbelief a sin, via John 3:16-18, but for the life of me, I see no rationale as to why or how not believing in a story line is considered an actual sin???

With all due respect, I'm not going to rehash the same argument with you, over and over.

A question for you. Have you read anything else besides John 3:16-18? You keep repeating that same passage.
 
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cvanwey

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Of course Jesus is quoted saying divergent things (IMO), but in the verses I quoted it seems that Jesus is saying something very different from what you claim above. Jesus is saying that HE is the perfect image of the Father, so a person's reaction to Jesus is a proxy for their reaction to the Father. A person with an evil soul will react negatively to Jesus and all his teachings, and a person with a good soul will react positively. Jesus is gathering the good souls into the barn (the wheat) and leaving the evil souls to be burned (the tares). This is a bit like Christian gnosticism. Some humans have a spark of God's spirit within them, and that spark reacts positively when it sees Jesus the perfect image of God. (Reading the gospels is a form of seeing Jesus. Presumably a good soul will react positively to the gospels and an evil soul will react negatively.)

I think we might be attempting to justify differing points here.?.?

Quick example... Take satan, for instance....

Though satan is considered antithetical to God, satan could not and would not refuse the existence of God, and actually be truthful about it. Right? Hence, even satan does not have the ability to not believe that Yahweh exists. Right? This has nothing to do with the hardening of the heart, sin, pride, humility, etc...
 
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With all due respect, I'm not going to rehash the same argument with you, over and over.

A question for you. Have you read anything else besides John 3:16-18? You keep repeating that same passage.

With all due respect then, don't answer the question. Yes, I've read it all. Your point?
 
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cloudyday2

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I think we might be attempting to justify differing points here.?.?

Quick example... Take satan, for instance....

Though satan is considered antithetical to God, satan could not and would not refuse the existence of God, and actually be truthful about it. Right? Hence, even satan does not have the ability to not believe that Yahweh exists. Right. This has nothing to do with the hardening of the heart, sin, pride, humility, etc...
That is true, but as I understand these verses in John, the belief or faith in Christianity is a byproduct of salvation rather than the precondition for salvation. A person either has God's spark in them or they don't. If they have the spark then they will become saved when they hear the gospel and become aware of their need and ability to return to the Father in heaven. Just as Satan cannot disbelieve the gospel, the spark of God within some humans cannot disbelieve.
 
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That is true, but as I understand these verses in John, the belief or faith in Christianity is a byproduct of salvation rather than the precondition for salvation.

I disagree. As stated to others, you can have two humans. One believes, and one does not. Thus, I ask you a very simple question, as a test.

Is the one, whom does not buy the story line of a resurrected Jesus have a snowball's chance in hell of entering heaven?

Second question, does the one that believes have a chance? What is the distiguishable difference? It's belief. If one does not believe, they, of course, would not attempt to repent to an agent they don't believe in, right?

Hence, they will both be sinners, but the only difference is the belief.


A person either has God's spark in them or they don't.

Agreed. And it's not by their choice :) And yet, it's this attribute which somehow remains the catalyst for heaven.
 
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