Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

[createdtoworship]

We are still saved before we perform any good work. For example, Abraham was justified not after circumcision but before circumcision.

we are saved by salvic repentance, a turning from false idols and a turning to the one true God. We have faith in Christ's finished work, not by works of righteousness, or works of law, but by grace alone we are saved. But we cannot worship two gods. If we worship the god of sex, and at the same time, say we worship God.....we deceive ourselves. Now I understand that it's not as simple as it is stated here and some people are in bondage to sexual addictions. But I also notice that in Christ, there is no addictions. The Bible does not mention addictions, because in Christ we are given a new life all together. Our job is simply to walk in that new life, to accept it. We can walk in our old ways for years but the universe will attack us due to our sin. God won't attack us, but our sin will come back on our heads. Being a christian means we will not get the judgement of God, but he will allow our sin to come back on our head and punish us temporarily speaking, and even remove some of our eternal rewards. So how we enjoy our eternity is based in part on merit. Our rewards are entirely merit based. Salvation however is not. To illustrate this point, say we were to leave our corporate jobs and give all our material blessings away to the poor and become evangelists with the leftover money. Say we became more well known than billy graham, and travelled the world doing crusades. Many many people would be saved due to our obedience to God. So when we were in heaven at the end of our life, we would see all those people. That would be an eternal reward, seeing millions of people enjoying eternity, versus being burned alive. That was entirely merit based, a works of righteouness. None of those people were there by their own merit, but they were there on the obedience of one person who did works instead of sitting on the couch.

 

[createdtoworship]

There was no option in the poll for: "Salvation = God's grace through faith + Works faith (and or holy living)." So I did not vote in the poll, my friend.

works righteousness were in the two bottom options, which ever is closest. But saying you are saved by grace AND works, is a contradiction, so no....I didn't post that one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

works righteousness were in the two bottom options, which ever is closest. But saying you are saved by grace AND works, is a contradiction, so no....I didn't post that one.

Dear Gradyll:

First, please understand that I am a non-denominational Trinitarian Sola Scriptura (+ the Anointing to understand it) type Christian. I did not come to what I believe from some church or by reading some added holy book that is not the traditional 66 book Bible. I came to primarily believe what I do from studying the Scriptures alone in prayer with GOD.

Second, I do not believe the Law of Moses applies today. I believe we are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with New Commands, and that the ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, and the dietary laws, etc. no longer apply anymore. I believe Christians today get tripped up on the works issue because they do not understand that when Paul spoke negatively of the Law and or works, he was actually referring to:

(a) The whole of the Law of Moses, i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel (contractually speaking, like a contract in buying a house) (Note: This does not mean the Moral Law has not been repeated into the New Testament).

(b) Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.​

The reason why Paul spoke this way was because he was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." At the time: This was a false belief being pushed by Jews upon Christians that said that you had to be circumcised first in order to be saved (vs. being saved by faith in Jesus Christ). Please see Galatians 5:2 and compare it with Galatians 5:4 as one example. To see a clear description of this heresy, please, I mean, please, I beg you to carefully read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and then look at the verses in Galatians 5 again).

Three, the Bible actually teaches that "grace and works" act in harmony together and they are intrinsically tied to one another.

Does grace reign (rule) through unrighteousness or sin?

No.

While we can be forgiven of sin (unrighteousness) by accepting Jesus as our Savior, seeking His forgiveness, and believing in His death & resurrection on our behalf, God's grace does not reign or rule in unrighteousness (or unrighteous living) after we are saved by His grace.

The Bible says,

"...even so might grace reign [rule] through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21).​

Does the grace of God teach us ungodliness and worldly lusts?

No.

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).​

So the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Living righteously and godly is synonymous for doing good works. In short, the grace of God teaches us to do works of faith (or good works).

What is the purpose or reason Christ died for us?

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,

25 "...Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).​

In other words, Christ died for us so as to cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that we believers can be holy and without blemish. Can you live holy and without blemish by the sanctification of God's Word (the Bible) without works of faith? No.

Here is a connection between Grace, and Works in one verse.

1 John 1:7 says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, ... the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."​

Walking in the light = loving your brother, see 1 John 2:9-11. Loving your brother is a work. So 1 John 1:7 is saying that walking in the light (loving your brother, which is a work) is tied to the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin. For 1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? No.
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). In fact, the only place where the words "faith only" or "faith alone" is used in the Bible, it is used in such a way that talks about how we are also justified by works, too. For James 2:24 says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So James condemns faith alone.

1 Corinthians 15:10 says that the reason why Paul was able to labor more than all his brethren was because it was the grace of GOD that worked within him. For it is why the prostitute woman kept kissing Christ's feet. She was so thankful that her many past sins were forgiven and it reflected in her actions and or love for the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by two things.

(a) Belief in the truth.
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit.​

An example of the Sanctification of the Spirit can be found in Romans 8:13.

Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. What does Jude 1:4 actually mean in your view?
I see it as anyone who thinks they can sin and still be saved because they have God's grace. Meaning, they think they cannot help but to sin, and or be fruitless for the Lord, and yet Jesus will forgive them anyways because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior. But we know that God's grace reigns through righteousness, and that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, etc.

I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

Sincerely,

~ J.


Side Note:

Oh, and while you don't have to do so, personally, I usually post an "Other (Please explain) option" in most of my polls so as to allow all people to share in the voting (if they desire to vote). But that is just me. Not every person is the same in this regards. In any event, please be well, and may GOD bless you today.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People are 'saved' (from whatever) when the Creator 'saves' them. His decision. His choice.

May be daily. Moment by moment. If He stops 'saving' them (stops protecting them from whatever), then they are no longer saved (from whatever).

 

[66 Books]

Well, what does God say in all of this.

"4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." -Ephesians 2:4-10.

May we not dwell on man's opinion but look firmly to God's Word, for it is pure and eternal.
God bless you truly in your studies,
L Bravehart

 

[Bible Highlighter]

works righteousness were in the two bottom options, which ever is closest. But saying you are saved by grace AND works, is a contradiction, so no....I didn't post that one.

So what about Ephesians 2:8-9?

I believe in part that this is referring to "Initial Salvation" because Ephesians 2:1 refers to how we have been quickened by Christ (Which is a one time event). Ephesians 2:8 talks about how we receive this grace like a gift. Gifts are received generally one time and they are not are given again, and again. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Paul is also condemning "Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Christ."

Ephesians 2:9 refers to "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" because it refers to the kind of work that a man would boast in himself in doing for all to see. There are some Works Salvationists I have encountered on rare occasion who downplay God's grace and or act like it is nonexistent almost and they focus on Works as their primary method of salvation. This is Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and this is wrong. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For if a believer sins, do they do a good work to get clean again? No. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus to be forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a completely different kind of work that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:9. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) is a God directed work done through the believer by the power of GOD working in them. The fruit of the tree working in the believer is the LORD. For Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. We can only do good by God working through us. So these are the kind of works that are of GOD. These are the kind of works that we would give praise to the Lord. So if we find ourselves doing good, we give Him the praise and glory, and thanks, and we do not look for the praise of others (So as to boast in ourselves). Ephesians 2:10 gives us the proper order of works, too. These good works (Sanctification by GOD) always follow after we are saved by God's grace and NEVER by Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (Ephesians 2:9) that attempts to deny God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

A person can tell the difference between the works that one would boast in themselves like in Ephesians 2:9, vs. the man of GOD who humbly and quietly obeys God even when others are not looking. The man of GOD gives praise to GOD in any good that they appear to do, and not themselves. These are the good works God calls us to do. For they are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

Verse 9 is the guy who looks in a mirror and says, "Hey everybody! Come see how good I look!"

Verse 10 is the guy who truly and honestly gives praise to the LORD for the good that GOD does in their life.

So works do save.

But it is the work of the LORD and not men.
We are saved both in Justification and in Sanctification by GOD and His work.
All praise, boasting, and glory goes to GOD and not ourselves.


In conclusion:

I believe Paul is saying that we are saved by God's grace through faith and not by Works Alone Salvationism that attempts to deny God's grace through faith. Paul is not denying the necessity of works of faith that follow God's saving grace through faith. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16). In other words, it is important to understand what KIND of works Paul condemns (When he speaks of such things).

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are still saved before we perform any good work. For example, Abraham was justified not after circumcision but before circumcision.

The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because a person has been made right with God doesn’t mean that can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards. The scriptures say we must abide in Christ and endure to the end to receive eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible does not mention addictions, ...

I disagree, friend. I believe the Bible uses other words to describe sinful addictions.

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:34).

We can either be slaves (addicts) to sin, or slaves (addicts) to righteousness.

16 "Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
(Romans 6:15-18).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

 

[createdtoworship]

Dear Gradyll:

First, please understand that I am a non-denominational Trinitarian Sola Scriptura (+ the Anointing to understand it) type Christian. I did not come to what I believe from some church or by reading some added holy book that is not the traditional 66 book Bible. I came to primarily believe what I do from studying the Scriptures alone in prayer with GOD.

Second, I do not believe the Law of Moses applies today. I believe we are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with New Commands, and that the ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, and the dietary laws, etc. no longer apply anymore. I believe Christians today get tripped up on the works issue because they do not understand that when Paul spoke negatively of the Law and or works, he was actually referring to:

(a) The whole of the Law of Moses, i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel (contractually speaking, like a contract in buying a house) (Note: This does not mean the Moral Law has not been repeated into the New Testament).

(b) Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.​

The reason why Paul spoke this way was because he was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." At the time: This was a false belief being pushed by Jews upon Christians that said that you had to be circumcised first in order to be saved (vs. being saved by faith in Jesus Christ). Please see Galatians 5:2 and compare it with Galatians 5:4 as one example. To see a clear description of this heresy, please, I mean, please, I beg you to carefully read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and then look at the verses in Galatians 5 again).

Three, the Bible actually teaches that "grace and works" act in harmony together and they are intrinsically tied to one another.

Does grace reign (rule) through unrighteousness or sin?

No.

While we can be forgiven of sin (unrighteousness) by accepting Jesus as our Savior, seeking His forgiveness, and believing in His death & resurrection on our behalf, God's grace does not reign or rule in unrighteousness (or unrighteous living) after we are saved by His grace.

The Bible says,

"...even so might grace reign [rule] through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21).​

Does the grace of God teach us ungodliness and worldly lusts?

No.

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).​

So the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Living righteously and godly is synonymous for doing good works. In short, the grace of God teaches us to do works of faith (or good works).

What is the purpose or reason Christ died for us?

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,

25 "...Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).​

In other words, Christ died for us so as to cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that we believers can be holy and without blemish. Can you live holy and without blemish by the sanctification of God's Word (the Bible) without works of faith? No.

Here is a connection between Grace, and Works in one verse.

1 John 1:7 says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, ... the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."​

Walking in the light = loving your brother, see 1 John 2:9-11. Loving your brother is a work. So 1 John 1:7 is saying that walking in the light (loving your brother, which is a work) is tied to the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin. For 1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? No.
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). In fact, the only place where the words "faith only" or "faith alone" is used in the Bible, it is used in such a way that talks about how we are also justified by works, too. For James 2:24 says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So James condemns faith alone.

1 Corinthians 15:10 says that the reason why Paul was able to labor more than all his brethren was because it was the grace of GOD that worked within him. For it is why the prostitute woman kept kissing Christ's feet. She was so thankful that her many past sins were forgiven and it reflected in her actions and or love for the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by two things.

(a) Belief in the truth.
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit.​

An example of the Sanctification of the Spirit can be found in Romans 8:13.

Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. What does Jude 1:4 actually mean in your view?
I see it as anyone who thinks they can sin and still be saved because they have God's grace. Meaning, they think they cannot help but to sin, and or be fruitless for the Lord, and yet Jesus will forgive them anyways because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior. But we know that God's grace reigns through righteousness, and that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, etc.

I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

Sincerely,

~ J.


Side Note:

Oh, and while you don't have to do so, personally, I usually post an "Other (Please explain) option" in most of my polls so as to allow all people to share in the voting (if they desire to vote). But that is just me. Not every person is the same in this regards. In any event, please be well, and may GOD bless you today.

sir grace and works are diametrically opposed, the law of non contradiction is a logical law. God created logic when he created our minds. We use logic to learn how to walk, to breath, to eat food and use the restroom, to learn to drive, or use a computer. However to believe grace and works are the same is a contradiction. You absolutely cannot both be saved by grace and works at the same time, some of what you posted I agree with just not the salvation by works Idea. Here is verses that disprove the salvation by works idea (it's a repeat of a previous post, because no one refuted it so it still valid)

"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." Galatians 3:21b

there is no law, loving your enemy, following God with all your heart, etc....no law at all that can save. If there was such a law, salvation would be by that law, and not the cross. God would rather allow a law that saved, than to torture His beloved son in our stead.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
Romans 11:6 nkjv

So the Bible itself does not interpret repentance as a work of righteousness. As it says above if repentance was a work, then it would cancel out grace as a means of salvation entirely. They are opposites, according to the law of non contradiction, both cannot be correct.

Again we must repent to be saved, but that repentance does not have eternal merit, thus according to scripture it is not a work. If we are living with our girlfriend before marriage, we must repent of that sin of adultery. If we are homosexual we must repent of homosexuality and accept God's sexuality for our lives if we wish to be Christian. But that repentance is not a work, here is why...We must interpret theological words according to the Bible. I interpret salvic repentance as part of trusting in Christ alone. If we worship god's of sex, god's of sports or gods of gleaming chromium (cars), we are not worshiping God. We must put down those false gods and give God our life. We can have recreation yes, any recreation that does not morally compromise our faith. However we must not idolize that recreation. Ecclesiastes says "there is a time for everything" My interpretation is this..."there is a time to play, and a time to rest, and a time for church, and a time to spend with family" If your recreation takes up all of your existing time and you don't have time for family or God, then you have to re-prioritize your life.

so again romans 11:6 dictates that if we are saved by grace, it cannot at the same time be works based. They are opposites. Here is that verse in several other translations:

New International Version
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

New Living Translation
And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

English Standard Version
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Berean Study Bible
And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Berean Literal Bible
And if by grace, it is no longer from works; otherwise grace no longer would be grace.

New American Standard Bible
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

New King James Version
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

King James Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Christian Standard Bible
Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

Contemporary English Version
This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's gift of undeserved grace.

Good News Translation
His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

International Standard Version
But if this is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of actions. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

NET Bible
And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

New Heart English Bible
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If they were chosen by God's kindness, they weren't chosen because of anything they did. Otherwise, God's kindness wouldn't be kindness.

New American Standard 1977
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And if by grace, then is it not by works; otherwise, the grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, then it is no longer grace; otherwise, the work is no longer work.

King James 2000 Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

American King James Version
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

American Standard Version
But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Darby Bible Translation
But if by grace, no longer of works: since [otherwise] grace is no more grace.

English Revised Version
But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Webster's Bible Translation
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Weymouth New Testament
But if it is in His grace that He has selected them, then His choice is no longer determined by human actions. Otherwise grace would be grace no longer.

 

[createdtoworship]

I disagree, friend. I believe the Bible uses other words to describe sinful addictions.

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:34).

We can either be slaves (addicts) to sin, or slaves (addicts) to righteousness.

16 "Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
(Romans 6:15-18).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

I think it is saying we are a slave to sin when we sin yes, but I think it is a general statement. For instance we sin because we are fallen and have flesh, plus we sin because we enjoy it. Simply put. That does make us a slave to sinning. But the addiction I am mentioning is an unending cycle of repentance, falling, repenting again, falling again. It's a cycle of addiction. I must admit reading books on purity did help me overcome basic addictive behaviour. For instance inappropriate contentography, but I was still addicted to lust. It helped me overcome the symptoms of lust, but not the root of the lust. I was still lusting. Then later as I sought the Lord with all of my heart (it started by praying every day, then it migrated to fasting once a week for spiritual growth and petitioning for others), then it moved to fasting every day, I liked the benefit so much that I wanted to fast every day. Not to mention I was on keto and losing weight. So God blessed me in more ways than one. But my fasting was not for health, if anything it's not that healthy to reduce calories for long periods, I may die younger. But I feel victory in every aspect. Just this week God exposed some sins of laziness I had in my home. I was spending more time on computer and less time with family and in doing chores. I repented of this yesterday, and God has blessed me. I still have much more to go, but God is still showing me these major sins I am doing. It's an on going process. That last sin, helped my marriage 10 fold. We are not saved by repenting, because we can repent all day long and not be perfect. We are saved by turning from false Gods' to the true God. If we are worshipping a false god of sexuality or money, we need to turn from that god and turn to the true God. It is much easier to say, "just believe Jesus existed, you don't have to change anything, just pray for all blessings, money, health, eternal life, and God will give you everything for free.) I wish it was like that. But just like giving children everything they want, spoils them (they are irresponsible), if God spoiled us, we would not work for anything. God wants us to work with our hands. I did notice that before Jesus public ministy, we don't hear much about Him. It's because he was just doing carpentry quietly for 15-20 years before hand. There is a lesson in that. We don't work for salvation, but we do work for everything else. That does not mean God won't lighten our load or bless us in the process. He will, more and more as we follow Him in word and deed.

 

[createdtoworship]

So what about Ephesians 2:8-9?

I believe in part that this is referring to "Initial Salvation" because Ephesians 2:1 refers to how we have been quickened by Christ (Which is a one time event). Ephesians 2:8 talks about how we receive this grace like a gift. Gifts are received generally one time and they are not are given again, and again. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Paul is also condemning "Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Christ."

Ephesians 2:9 refers to "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" because it refers to the kind of work that a man would boast in himself in doing for all to see. There are some Works Salvationists I have encountered on rare occasion who downplay God's grace and or act like it is nonexistent almost and they focus on Works as their primary method of salvation. This is Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and this is wrong. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For if a believer sins, do they do a good work to get clean again? No. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus to be forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1).

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about a completely different kind of work that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:9. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) is a God directed work done through the believer by the power of GOD working in them. The fruit of the tree working in the believer is the LORD. For Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. We can only do good by God working through us. So these are the kind of works that are of GOD. These are the kind of works that we would give praise to the Lord. So if we find ourselves doing good, we give Him the praise and glory, and thanks, and we do not look for the praise of others (So as to boast in ourselves). Ephesians 2:10 gives us the proper order of works, too. These good works (Sanctification by GOD) always follow after we are saved by God's grace and NEVER by Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (Ephesians 2:9) that attempts to deny God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

A person can tell the difference between the works that one would boast in themselves like in Ephesians 2:9, vs. the man of GOD who humbly and quietly obeys God even when others are not looking. The man of GOD gives praise to GOD in any good that they appear to do, and not themselves. These are the good works God calls us to do. For they are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

Verse 9 is the guy who looks in a mirror and says, "Hey everybody! Come see how good I look!"

Verse 10 is the guy who truly and honestly gives praise to the LORD for the good that GOD does in their life.

So works do save.

But it is the work of the LORD and not men.
We are saved both in Justification and in Sanctification by GOD and His work.
All praise, boasting, and glory goes to GOD and not ourselves.


In conclusion:

I believe Paul is saying that we are saved by God's grace through faith and not by Works Alone Salvationism that attempts to deny God's grace through faith. Paul is not denying the necessity of works of faith that follow God's saving grace through faith. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16). In other words, it is important to understand what KIND of works Paul condemns (When he speaks of such things).

See my last posts, they explain alot. But I also feel I need to explain what role obedience plays. I believe obedience does one thing, it makes us beautiful. Jesus already sees us as sinless in His eyes due to his son dying in our place and being our sacrificial lamb. He sees us "white as snow", though our sins were "crimson". I am not talking about that part. Yes we have the righteousness of Christ, but there is eternal rewards that we can work for, also blessings in this life. To the backslider who is filled with their own ways, and living in sin as a christian, there should be no comfort for them. Yes God can forgive all things, but they must be ashamed of it, and repent of it. Sexual addiction is such as this, they are ashamed, and not proud of who they are, they seek grace and obtain it from the Lord. But to the person who is proud they are homosexual for example, while naming the name of Christ, they do not have assurance of salvation, hebrews six talks about forfeiting salvation (but that is for another thread, as that is off topic), but what does obedience bring to the plate? It simply reveals whats in the heart. If I leave everything and follow Christ I believe He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. If Christ asks me to let go of something and I hold on to it, I am not believing in Him, I lack faith. It's not that the sin of holding on to it damaged me, it's that the sin revealed I really didn't believe to begin with. It's a faith problem really not a sin problem. On the other hand some people would love to have eternal life as long as they can live partying and living in sexual sin with college women in their dorms, they love Jesus as long as He doens't interfere with their life. However salvation is not just living forever, salvation is being saved from sin. If we don't want to be saved from sin, then Jesus can't help us. It's best to just go down that road of sin, until you hit a dead end,a and then come to Christ. (that is a harder road though). But anyway what I wanted to say was that what role does obedience play, I believe obedience is an outflow of a stronger faith, in other words the more you obey, the more you believe, it is that belief that is attractive to God, not the repentance, not the merit.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." -Hebrews 11:6 nkjv

I believe that God has programmed into the universe itself a rewards and punishment system. I could be wrong with this, but bear with me. I believe when you sin, even in pre fall garden of eden, that sin destroyed them. God simply mentioned the destruction it did to them. I don't think God monitors our spiritual life day in and day out, and when we sin, he says "Gotcha, now watch this punishment, Ha, Ha, Ha." I believe He sees us sin, and has pity, because the universe is programmed to attack sin and bless righteousness. Especially after Christ, as believers we don't undergo the wrath of God anymore. Yes we can be chastened as children. But I believe that is a passive action of God, not an active action. I believe that God simply allows our sin to return to our own head. Works don't return void, and sin won't return void. Works will return blessing, and sin will return a curse. It's the program of the universe. God can override the system I believe, He can show mercy. This is when we pray, "God I know that I messed up, and I am asking for mercy and grace in this situation." He loves to give mercy and grace. That is one thing that is not passive, but active. I don't think that God's will is to actively judge us, but to love on us and guide us to do the right thing. Doing the right thing won't save us because, there is always more to do right. We always have more sin to repent of, so repenting by itself cannot save. But believing in Jesus, and what He did for us on the cross, and turning from our sin, making Him our new God of life, no more living in sexual lasciviousness, no more drunken parties after church, just holiness from a pure heart. Again addiction is different in a way. We can be addicted to sin and still be saved, but that sin will still destroy our marriage, our job, our family, or worse. The sins to really avoid are the ones we are proud of, those are not just physical sins but spiritual sins. I believe those sins can plant in our soul and eventually deceive us and cause our faith to die off. When are faith is dead, we give up on morality all together, we become a worse son of Hell, than anyone before us, and we become an apostate as mentioned numerous times in the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sir grace and works are diametrically opposed, the law of non contradiction is a logical law. God created logic when he created our minds. We use logic to learn how to walk, to breath, to eat food and use the restroom, to learn to drive, or use a computer. However to believe grace and works are the same is a contradiction. You absolutely cannot both be saved by grace and works at the same time, some of what you posted I agree with just not the salvation by works Idea. Here is verses that disprove the salvation by works idea (it's a repeat of a previous post, because no one refuted it so it still valid)

We are saved by both God's grace through faith (and not "Works Alone Salvationism"), and we are also saved by works of faith (that follows God's grace). Faith is the vehicle that accesses God's grace. This faith produces works of faith so as to show that such a faith is true. For a faith without works is dead. God's grace comes first, and then works of faith comes next. The first one is the Justification process, and the second one is the Sanctification process. After grace starts, the two (being unique) both work in harmony together.

"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." Galatians 3:21b

Okay. First, what law is Paul talking about in Galatians 3?

(a) The traffic law?
(b) The Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 commands as a whole)?
(c) Copyright law?
(d) New Testament law?
(e) All of God's laws in general?

Galatians 2:3 says this,

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised"
(Galatians 2:3).

Is circumcision a part of the Old Law or New Testament Law?
It is a part of the Law of Moses or the 613.

Galatians 3:17 says,

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." (Galatians 3:17).

In plain English, this verse is saying that the agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law. What Law came 430 years later after the Promise given to Abraham? This would be the written Law given to Moses. So Paul is referring to the Law of Moses in Galatians 3:21 and not all forms of God's laws. For there was no law within the Law of Moses pointing us to Jesus Christ. But in the New Covenant (or New Testament) there is.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

So to believe in Jesus is a commandment under the New Covenant.
Does not believing in Jesus give eternal life?

Second, Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation," and or "Ultimate Salvation" (Which is by God's grace through faith in Christ). No person can be saved or have life without first receiving Jesus Christ who is the source of our eternal life (See: 1 John 5:12). So when Paul says there is no command that gives life, He is talking literally in the sense that there is no command or law that can save alone without involving God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul is referring here to Justification, and not Sanctification (Which is the next step after Justification in the salvation process).

there is no law, loving your enemy, following God with all your heart, etc....no law at all that can save. If there was such a law, salvation would be by that law, and not the cross. God would rather allow a law that saved, than to torture His beloved son in our stead.

Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace does not save. That is what Paul is saying. Paul also says you can deny God by a lack of works (See: Titus 1:16).

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
Romans 11:6 nkjv

Context. Paul was talking to Israel or the Jews in Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11. So the context is how the Jews refused their Messiah and His grace, and they relied upon their own system of works to save themselves. So again, Paul is referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" without God's grace in Romans 11:6. For it is true, that if salvation was by "Works Alone" it is no more grace. For it is true that if it by God's grace, then it is no more "Works Alone Salvationism." This has to be the interpretative view because Paul says in Romans 11:21-22 that if we do not continue in his goodness, we (Gentiles) can be cut off just like the Jews.

So the Bible itself does not interpret repentance as a work of righteousness. As it says above if repentance was a work, then it would cancel out grace as a means of salvation entirely. They are opposites, according to the law of non contradiction, both cannot be correct.

I believe "repentance" is seeking forgiveness of one's sins with the Lord by way of prayer, and that the "fruits of repentance" are a person's good deeds (i.e. which is actually the Lord doing the good work through them). In either case, Jesus essentially says repent or perish (See: Luke 13:3). Jesus says to believe in Him is the work of God (See: John 6:29). So if believing in Jesus is a work, then how much more is seeking forgiveness with the LORD a work? Repentance is also a command in the New Testament (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To take action on one of God's proactive commands or Laws is a work.

Again we must repent to be saved, but that repentance does not have eternal merit, thus according to scripture it is not a work. If we are living with our girlfriend before marriage, we must repent of that sin of adultery. If we are homosexual we must repent of homosexuality and accept God's sexuality for our lives if we wish to be Christian. But that repentance is not a work, here is why...We must interpret theological words according to the Bible. I interpret salvic repentance as part of trusting in Christ alone. If we worship god's of sex, god's of sports or gods of gleaming chromium (cars), we are not worshiping God. We must put down those false gods and give God our life. We can have recreation yes, any recreation that does not morally compromise our faith. However we must not idolize that recreation. Ecclesiastes says "there is a time for everything" My interpretation is this..."there is a time to play, and a time to rest, and a time for church, and a time to spend with family" If your recreation takes up all of your existing time and you don't have time for family or God, then you have to re-prioritize your life.

James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
Worshiping GOD is one of God's commands, as well (Both in the Old and in the New). Granted, we are not under the Old Law, but we are under the New Law. When Paul spoke negatively of the Law or works generically, he was referring to the 613 laws given to Israel and he was not referring to New Covenant Law given to us by Jesus and His followers.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Catholic stuff, for the win!

CT06

Trent. Good stuff in there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

See my last posts, they explain alot. But I also feel I need to explain what role obedience plays. I believe obedience does one thing, it makes us beautiful. Jesus already sees us as sinless in His eyes due to his son dying in our place and being our sacrificial lamb. He sees us "white as snow", though our sins were "crimson". I am not talking about that part. Yes we have the righteousness of Christ, but there is eternal rewards that we can work for, also blessings in this life. To the backslider who is filled with their own ways, and living in sin as a christian, there should be no comfort for them. Yes God can forgive all things, but they must be ashamed of it, and repent of it. Sexual addiction is such as this, they are ashamed, and not proud of who they are, they seek grace and obtain it from the Lord. But to the person who is proud they are homosexual for example, while naming the name of Christ, they do not have assurance of salvation, hebrews six talks about forfeiting salvation (but that is for another thread, as that is off topic), but what does obedience bring to the plate? It simply reveals whats in the heart. If I leave everything and follow Christ I believe He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. If Christ asks me to let go of something and I hold on to it, I am not believing in Him, I lack faith. It's not that the sin of holding on to it damaged me, it's that the sin revealed I really didn't believe to begin with. It's a faith problem really not a sin problem. On the other hand some people would love to have eternal life as long as they can live partying and living in sexual sin with college women in their dorms, they love Jesus as long as He doens't interfere with their life. However salvation is not just living forever, salvation is being saved from sin. If we don't want to be saved from sin, then Jesus can't help us. It's best to just go down that road of sin, until you hit a dead end,a and then come to Christ. (that is a harder road though). But anyway what I wanted to say was that what role does obedience play, I believe obedience is an outflow of a stronger faith, in other words the more you obey, the more you believe, it is that belief that is attractive to God, not the repentance, not the merit.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." -Hebrews 11:6 nkjv

I believe that God has programmed into the universe itself a rewards and punishment system. I could be wrong with this, but bear with me. I believe when you sin, even in pre fall garden of eden, that sin destroyed them. God simply mentioned the destruction it did to them. I don't think God monitors our spiritual life day in and day out, and when we sin, he says "Gotcha, now watch this punishment, Ha, Ha, Ha." I believe He sees us sin, and has pity, because the universe is programmed to attack sin and bless righteousness. Especially after Christ, as believers we don't undergo the wrath of God anymore. Yes we can be chastened as children. But I believe that is a passive action of God, not an active action. I believe that God simply allows our sin to return to our own head. Works don't return void, and sin won't return void. Works will return blessing, and sin will return a curse. It's the program of the universe. God can override the system I believe, He can show mercy. This is when we pray, "God I know that I messed up, and I am asking for mercy and grace in this situation." He loves to give mercy and grace. That is one thing that is not passive, but active. I don't think that God's will is to actively judge us, but to love on us and guide us to do the right thing. Doing the right thing won't save us because, there is always more to do right. We always have more sin to repent of, so repenting by itself cannot save. But believing in Jesus, and what He did for us on the cross, and turning from our sin, making Him our new God of life, no more living in sexual lasciviousness, no more drunken parties after church, just holiness from a pure heart. Again addiction is different in a way. We can be addicted to sin and still be saved, but that sin will still destroy our marriage, our job, our family, or worse. The sins to really avoid are the ones we are proud of, those are not just physical sins but spiritual sins. I believe those sins can plant in our soul and eventually deceive us and cause our faith to die off. When are faith is dead, we give up on morality all together, we become a worse son of Hell, than anyone before us, and we become an apostate as mentioned numerous times in the Bible.

While we are saved by God's grace through faith (and in seeking forgiveness with Jesus, and in believing in his death and resurrection), His grace also is applied in the Sanctification process, as well.

For again, 1 John 1:7 says IF we walk in the light as He (GOD) is in the light, .... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

To walk in the light is a work.

Walking is a work.

It is like a form of exercise.

You are working your body when you walk.

Loving your brother is walking in the light (See 1 John 2:9-11).

So loving your brother (a work) is tied to God's grace being continued within a believer's life. It is a continuance of their faith. In fact, James 2 is all about loving your brother and if you don't love your brother, your faith is dead. That is what James is saying in James 2. They were having respect of persons towards the rich brethren, and did not give any favor to the poor brethren. They did not love the brethren, and Paul said that faith without works is dead. For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). A demon type belief cannot save anyone. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

As for Hebrews 11 that you quote:

Again, I am not against faith in any way. In fact, Hebrews 11 gives us what a true faith looks like. We see that faith always led to works of faith with the great men of GOD in Hebrews 11.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@gradyll

You said before that GOD wants us to think logically. If this is so, then words like "work" have to line up with reality. Meaning, any action I take for GOD is a work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it is saying we are a slave to sin when we sin yes, but I think it is a general statement. For instance we sin because we are fallen and have flesh, plus we sin because we enjoy it. Simply put. That does make us a slave to sinning. But the addiction I am mentioning is an unending cycle of repentance, falling, repenting again, falling again. It's a cycle of addiction. I must admit reading books on purity did help me overcome basic addictive behaviour. For instance inappropriate contentography, but I was still addicted to lust. It helped me overcome the symptoms of lust, but not the root of the lust. I was still lusting. Then later as I sought the Lord with all of my heart (it started by praying every day, then it migrated to fasting once a week for spiritual growth and petitioning for others), then it moved to fasting every day, I liked the benefit so much that I wanted to fast every day. Not to mention I was on keto and losing weight. So God blessed me in more ways than one. But my fasting was not for health, if anything it's not that healthy to reduce calories for long periods, I may die younger. But I feel victory in every aspect. Just this week God exposed some sins of laziness I had in my home. I was spending more time on computer and less time with family and in doing chores. I repented of this yesterday, and God has blessed me. I still have much more to go, but God is still showing me these major sins I am doing. It's an on going process. That last sin, helped my marriage 10 fold. We are not saved by repenting, because we can repent all day long and not be perfect. We are saved by turning from false Gods' to the true God. If we are worshipping a false god of sexuality or money, we need to turn from that god and turn to the true God. It is much easier to say, "just believe Jesus existed, you don't have to change anything, just pray for all blessings, money, health, eternal life, and God will give you everything for free.) I wish it was like that. But just like giving children everything they want, spoils them (they are irresponsible), if God spoiled us, we would not work for anything. God wants us to work with our hands. I did notice that before Jesus public ministy, we don't hear much about Him. It's because he was just doing carpentry quietly for 15-20 years before hand. There is a lesson in that. We don't work for salvation, but we do work for everything else. That does not mean God won't lighten our load or bless us in the process. He will, more and more as we follow Him in word and deed.

Worshiping GOD is a work because it involves certain types of actions.

Jesus says:

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
(Luke 4:8).

Paul says:

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." (Romans 12:1) (NASB).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@gradyll

Also, Paul says that if you love your neighbor (Which is a work), then you will fulfill the Moral aspect of the Old Law (like: Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet, etc.). You believe in not killing, stealing, coveting, etc. as a part of eternal life (i.e. staying away from sin), but Paul here is saying that by loving your neighbor (Which is a work) you will automatically obey these other commands (See: Romans 13:8-10).

 

[createdtoworship]

Worshiping GOD is a work because it involves certain types of actions.

Jesus says:

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
(Luke 4:8).

Paul says:

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." (Romans 12:1) (NASB).

@gradyll

Also, Paul says that if you love your neighbor (Which is a work), then you will fulfill the Moral aspect of the Old Law (like: Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet, etc.). You believe in not killing, stealing, coveting, etc. as a part of eternal life (i.e. staying away from sin), but Paul here is saying that by loving your neighbor (Which is a work) you will automatically obey these other commands (See: Romans 13:8-10).

they are works only if you are doing them to be saved. To me, I can do the exact same action and it's not a work, because God tests the heart and motive. I am not doing the work to be saved, I am doing the work for eternal rewards. I don't think you will agree and that is ok. Rarely in ten years have I convinced people on this forum regarding theology. People go into a talk with the one simple motive of converting someone else and not listening completely. I know because I do that too. But that is why we need to step aside from things our pastor, or a website or a book, or a theologian said, and go with what is actually in the word of God itself. Does that make sense? Now back to the original motive for this thread, it was not to debate with you about the peripherals. I posted this thread to encourage a dead church to start living for God. So if you are a christian and you are lacking power in your life, keep reading. I will post it in the next post.

 

[createdtoworship]

There is two different types of gospel messages christians give on social media. The most common one is the "touchy Feely social media" type of gospel. I flock to the love and grace, so I have to purpose in my heart to see the full picture. Here is the touchy Feely message you will hear: God will love you the way you are, and will accept you with all your flaws, after all we are all human anyway. But He will never require change, ever never. Because change is unloving. Then you have a fiery type of gospel preached as well "God hates homosexuals." Turn or burn, etc. You dont see this gospel preached much on social media but you encounter it in some hyper pentacostal groups and I see it in christian foruma online too. What I don't see on social media or online is the accurate gospel message. Both types above have parts of them that are true and parts that are not true. God loves us as we are, just as we are. Imperfections and all. But He does not want to keep us that way. What good is a gospel message if the only thing you get is to sit on a cloud forever playing a harp? That is not a joyfilled eternity. Salvation, should you choose to accept it will not only give you eternal life in heaven with God, but will change your life forever (for the positive), here and now. It will revolutionize your family, one person at a time, it will change your job, it will change how you see life and how you deal with hardships. We often forget that when we are saved, we are saved from something to something else. It's our sin that we are saved from. Sin creates death. Too often I don't see that attitude of "lets do what pleases God." the attitude I see is "what can I do and still be saved." or, "how far can I go in this particular sin before I am in trouble." That is not really what salvation truly is. Yes, salvation can start that way. When you just get saved and you don't really know much about God or salvation. But salvation is to give you abundant life right now it's not just fire insurance from Hell. Yes we have addictions, lusts, desires and frailties. But God wants to work on each of those things one at a time. Sometimes He tackles several at once. IF Christianity has not changed you, perhaps maybe you forgot one simple theological concept (you forgot to repent when you were saved). Salvation without repentance is a mental thing but not a heart thing. You may believe Jesus existed, but satan believes that part. So what does it make you if you believe the same thing? The gospel message that lacks repentance is not a true gospel message. I have heard dozens of atheists say something like this...."I tried christianity and it didn't work. I have all these doubts about the Bible, or God now." I say this to them...."we all have doubts, I don't think that is the problem....I say..."I know you believed in Jesus, but did you ever repent of your sins?" I have never had one of them say yes. out of the dozens of atheists I have debated none of them have ever said, "I accepted the gospel, repented of my sins, but it did not work." See even if you repent a tiny little bit, you are better for it. God never asks us to turn from things that are actually good for us. Sin is not bad because it's forbidden, it's forbidden because it's bad. God asks for us to repent when we become christians, because that will be a mechanism, a tool that we will use throughout our christian life. I repent every day in various ways. I was studying programming at work and there is something called a PID loop. And one of the variables is an error feedback. So basicaly you have a setpoint, and when you don't meet the setpoint, you have an error, and the error has degrees on which it is wrong. So basically a PID loop is always correcting itself, I am not sure but I think that cruise control on your car is a PID setup, you hit a hill and you slow down, and the computer sees an error, and speeds you up. We are the same way, we have errors in our day. We wake up and don't get our coffee because we are behind schedule, and have a horrible morning. Error. Someone dies in our family, error. Our dog gets sick, error. Christianity is about giving us strength to deal with those errors in our life. And that is what repentance does it says "there is an error, I need to correct." you may make the same exact error dozens of times, but each time you learn something new. Conviction versus condemnation. Satan will tell you if you mess up with the same stuff all the time that you are unworthy, that christianity is fake and it's not working. That is condemnation. God doesn't do that, instead of condemnation, God gives us conviction. Conviction is the feeling inside that I messed up, but God forgave me on the Cross and I will try to do better next time. When we get in trouble is when we stop trying. See defeat is not when you mess up, it's when you stop trying. These last few sentences are the most important. After Jesus died for our sins we are no longer guilty for the things we have done. His forgiveness gives us a new slate to launch our new life in Him. We have the power to get past alcoholism, or prostitution, or opiod abuse. With Jesus that power can be tapped into daily. The Bible says "if a man asks for bread, will I give him a stone?" The answer is no. If we ask for a baptism of His holy spirit every day, He will give us power every day. When someone asked Jesus "How are we supposed to pray." one of the things He said "lead me not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." See Jesus knew we were only flesh and bone and we had evil desires that combated us from every direction. But He also knew that the power is there for anyone simply to ask and pray for power to overcome it.
Don't confuse repentance with works. I repent because I am saved and I want to be more like Christ. We do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do. But I am not saved by doing good works. We are never perfected by our actions because no matter how good we are we can never be good enough. The bible says for one sin we die, Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23. For example if I gave you a balloon, how many needles does it take to pop it? Just one. And if you sin just one time heaven is no longer an option because heaven is a perfect place. So we must accept Christ's perfect sacrifice for ourselves. That is the true gospel, to turn from our sin and believe in Jesus Christ as our only salvation. It's a free gift. Not of works, lest someone could boast about it.
Now lets talk about the Hell fire gospel message for a second. I was in san franscisco and I seen a bunch of christian evangelists on the street corner with a sign that said "God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]." For one that is a derogatory label. It's not polite to use those labels as humans so I find it very offensive that a sign says God uses that derogatory name. But that is another story. Secondly I did a Bible study on God's anger in the new testament. I was curious about it. Because I seen the opposing viewpoint as well. Someone said "God is not angry at you, He loves you." So I was curious. Is God angry at us, after Christ came? There are lots of verses in the old testament about God's anger regarding mankind and their evil ways. But not so much in the new testament. Only two places I saw Jesus get mad, and bith times were toward religious people who were hypocrits, they were never at the gentiles. We are gentiles, non jews. There are two reasons I believe for why there are only a few instances of God being angry in the new testament. The primary reason: God's anger was displayed on His son, for our sins. Secondly, God's anger is storing up. I believe there will be a day of wrath. But it is not yet. I am not the greatest at end times, but if you wish to learn more, look up clarence larkins charts on the internet ( they are free), they have all sorts of pictures. They help me when studying end times. See, There will be a rapture of the church. And I believe all Christians will be taken up, and I believe that any non christian will be left behind. Those days will not be pretty. I remember reading one verse that had an angel standing one foot in the sea and another foot on dry land. Now that is a big angel. Another verse I remember reading had angels flying around with the face of a lion and they had wings and sharp teeth and they ate humans that were left on the earth. I am not kidding about this, read the revelation (the last book of the Bible). On another occasion I remember reading that there were so many people killed, that there were rivers of blood up to the depth of a horses bridle. Now that's a lot of blood shed. So yes God loves you right now and has a wonderful plan for your life, but don't think God is this passive personality that won't judge your sin. Oh He will. Now is it right to say that God hates homo's? No it's not. God does not hate sinners, He hates sin. It may be true in the old testament that God was angry with the sinful but no so anymore, after Christ. although there will be a day of wrath. But I am not sure if it God is actually angry during that process. It would be a good study for me to do more of. It could be that God is sitting on the couch watching the news, and He just waves His hand and all the destroyer angels go to war against the human race. That is possible, it could be that He had no emotion at all. I don't know. But when I read the Bible I know that sin makes Him angry and sin actually hurts His heart. The reason is this....sin creates death where ever it is leading up to the death of His beloved son. Now, lets talk about Hell for a little bit. I believe in einsteins theory of relativity. That means that if you have mass, you have gravity, you have time and you have a host of other affects, on that mass. But if you don't have mass, then you don't have time. Angels are without mass, and God is without mass, and our souls are without mass. That means that all those things are not affected by the fourth dimension of time. In laymans terms those things are all eternal. If our soul is eternal, then the hell that we are condemned to, must also be eternal, which means it would also be massless and spiritual in nature. Now we only have our laws of physics to go off of, this is all just theory. You have meta physics as well, which I don't understand enough about to theorize. But this viewpoint answer some apologetics questions. Why would God send us to eternal hell for a temporal sin? I hear that one alot. Well the answer would be that we go to eternal hell, because the soul is eternal. And sin itself is eternal because it is spiritual, and sins of the mind, are done in an eternal state of mind. I know this is getting deep. But this means that all of our thoughts are eternal. They are massless and are stamped into eternity. Time only affects mass, if you don't have mass, you can't be sped up or slowed down my time, because time has nothing to speed up. So all of our thoughts are eternal, which means bad thoughts or sins, are eternal. Now I used to think that it was only a sin when it manifested itself in a physical action. But I no longer believe that. I think sin is deep in the heart, deep in the spirit of man (the soul), permanently tied not only to our flesh, by being in the flesh but tied to our mind. How we think, can be sinful. We can hate someone, and not kill them. We can look at someone in lust, and not lay with them. Sin is in the mind. That is why Jesus said "He that looks with lust, has committed adultery, and he that hates someone, has murdered them." (my wording). So we all have plenty to work on, as far as our own imperfections. But God is gracious and loving and will not give up on you until you are perfect in all ways, both mental and physical. Not just in heaven, but now. And this perfection in your life, will create many blessings for you, not just in eternal rewards, but will transfer to wealth and health in this world, if you give it time. That does not mean that God will give you everything you desire. Because our mind is sinful, we desire sinful things, and those things, God necessarily won't give us. But if we conform our mind to His, and our desires truly become one with His desires, then He starts to grant us our hearts desire, one by one. You start to see every prayer answered in succession. It's amazing. Just about that time, you start to get pride and think you must be pretty spiritual, and then you heap up judgement on yourself for that sin. So then God gives you a thorn in the flesh, to keep you humble. A weakness or a testimony of a weakness, and it's one that you just can't overcome, because this is God's given thorn to keep you broken. He would not have to do that to you if you were able to not lift yourself up in pride. But ultimately Gods will is done on earth, as it is in heaven. This is what true Christianity is. To say that God is never angry, or that God loves everyone and will forgive anyone even if they love and have pride in their sin, is wrong. For example the pedophile who is a christian, He must repent of that sin accept Christ as His savior. Same with the homosexual, the adulterer. And anyone living in Sin. It does not mean that one is perfect, it means that we realize, "Hey I am broken, I need help here Lord, Help me overcome this weakness." The wrong attitude is being a christian and going to homosexual pride events, and saying that God loves homosexuality. No, He doesn't. Homosexuality destroys lives not the opposite. Many people would call me homophobic for saying that. But it's not my words, they are from the Bible. Anyway I ran across a lovely testimony of a lesbian who converted to christianity today, I wanted to share it. I think it explains the power of the gospel in ways that theological words fail to do.

 

[createdtoworship]

We're saved by grace alone. But grace can still be resisted. So while faith is a gift (of grace), we can nonetheless reject that gift by refusing to accept or exercise it. God initiates while man must consent and cooperate. We're obligated to do so because faith is the first step in our justification. Faith, IOW, is the right thing to have/do. Man exists in a disordered or unjust state when he doesn't believe.

At any rate faith establishes a communion between man and God that man was made for. Now we live by the Spirit, under grace, to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us. And throughout our lives for whatever time we have we're expected to continue to follow and walk with God, doing His will as He gives us the grace to do it. This is how salvation is worked out.

God bless you brother, I feel your explanation is close, I see that you are catholic. Just make sure you are not working for salvation, all of our acts of righteousness come from a position of being saved already. Not in order to become saved. Godbless, I just seen your post now.