Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

[Anguspure]

and you'd probably see the nose appearing before the wings & tail... which would in turn be the last thing remaining visible ?

Possibly. They are just a dot at that distance, if you even see one.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Geocentricism I don't really have a problem with because the center of the universe is by definition where YHWH has focused His attention, irrespective of physical perspectives.

So would you accept that Biblical cosmology according to scripture is geocentric and geostationary? Sounds like you don't consider it of much importance one way or the other...?

Besides it seems that at its root the abhorrence for geocentricism is more about concerns over human arrogance than any observational reason.

That's funny, because I'd have thought that submitting to God's word is the humble approach, whereas pretending we know all kinds of mysteries of an allegedly almost infinite and multi-billion year-old universe is the height of arrogance.

 

[Anguspure]

So would you accept that Biblical cosmology according to scripture is geocentric and geostationary? Sounds like you don't consider it of much importance one way or the other...?

Not really important to me. I don't think the Kingdom hangs on having a correct understanding of that sort of stuff.
The anthropocentric model (relative to YHWH of course) is far more important.
Practically as a navigator, the mathematics that comes out of the heliocentric model works perfectly to an astounding accuracy (all GPS technology uses heliocentric, spherical geometry).

That's funny, because I'd have thought that submitting to God's word is the humble approach, whereas pretending we know all kinds of mysteries of an allegedly almost infinite and multi-billion year-old universe is the height of arrogance.

I do tend to agree, and so did the early thinkers. Being at the center, or bottom of the universe, only one step up from the grave and hell was not a lofty position rather it was a humble and lowly one relative to the heights of the heavens.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't think the Kingdom hangs on having a correct understanding of that sort of stuff.

I see it ultimately as a question of 'Who do you trust?' It's easy when there's no controversy between scripture and the world's teaching, but when God's word is flatly contradicted by 'science'... We're all accorded a measure of faith, so are you going to trust your eyes, which are so easily deceived (by eg optical illusions, mirages, tricks of perspective etc) or God, walk in faith or in sight? Just because your WGS84 works doesn't necessarily make the globe true.

Being at the center, or bottom of the universe, only one step up from the grave and hell was not a lofty position rather it was a humble and lowly one relative to the heights of the heavens.

Yes, and it really makes a mess of the Bible when we monkey with absolute direction. So now 'up' means 'in the earth-centered inertial frame radially outward from the center', but a lot of scriptural contortion needs to occur to render the heavens as concentric spheres. I don't see many ball-shaped footstools, spherical sealed clay or wrap-around tents, for starters.

That's why it's so liberating to just let God be true and accept that if inerrancy of scripture means anything, it means that the HS doesn't employ limited or imperfect analogies and figures of speech.

 

[Anguspure]

I see it ultimately as a question of 'Who do you trust?' It's easy when there's no controversy between scripture and the world's teaching, but when God's word is flatly contradicted by 'science'... We're all accorded a measure of faith, so are you going to trust your eyes, which are so easily deceived (by eg optical illusions, mirages, tricks of perspective etc) or God, walk in faith or in sight? Just because your WGS84 works doesn't necessarily make the globe true.

I do tend to agree with you in principle, however, for the most part, I definitely don't trust the judgement of the last couple of thousand years of theologians and philosophers who have heavily colored the way Scripture is viewed and interpreted according to their own apriori assumptions and with great gobs of self righteous ego thrown into the mix.
For example, on the age of the Universe; Maimonides the Jewish sage (who is pretty obscure beyod Jewish circles) gained an understanding that the universe was about 15 billion years old from the book of Genesis centuries before anybody in Western Academia even thought of such a thing. The Western academic (prior to William Smith) time frame was based on a literal understanding of translations of Hebrew texts and is still held by people who didn't really understand what they were reading.
Age of the Universe

Yes, and it really makes a mess of the Bible when we monkey with absolute direction. So now 'up' means 'in the earth-centered inertial frame radially outward from the center', but a lot of scriptural contortion needs to occur to render the heavens as concentric spheres. I don't see many ball-shaped footstools, spherical sealed clay or wrap-around tents, for starters.

That's why it's so liberating to just let God be true and accept that if inerrancy of scripture means anything, it means that the HS doesn't employ limited or imperfect analogies and figures of speech.

Hyperspace turns at 90 degree angles. Space can indeed fold up like a tent or a curtain. Mathematically it is possible that there as many as 11 heavens. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Biblical speech. What is lacking is human understanding. Time and time again we find that what we thought was imperfect and approximate is actually very precise.
How about a piece of pi (π)?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Maimonides the Jewish sage (who is pretty obscure beyod Jewish circles) gained an understanding that the universe was about 15 billion years old from the book of Genesis centuries before anybody in Western Academia even thought of such a thing.

When you look into it, you'll find that the 'standard model' cosmology is actually straight out of the pages of the Kabbalah, the Zohar and Babylonian mysticism. It is the product of anti-Christ religion. I hope that gives you something to consider.

Hyperspace turns at 90 degree angles. Space can indeed fold up like a tent or a curtain. Mathematically it is possible that there as many as 11 heavens. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Biblical speech. What is lacking is human understanding. Time and time again we find that what we thought was imperfect and approximate is actually very precise.

I'm familiar with that argument. Mathemagic can make anything possible. But God is not the author of confusion, the metaphors and figures of speech in the Bible are consistent with FE and can be straightforwardly applied to physical creation without needing to plead ignorance, get abstract and mystical, and fly off with gematric yoda to the darth tree of knowledge. That's just where the devil wants you, floating in simulations in the new age gnostic babylon.

 

[Anguspure]

When you look into it, you'll find that the 'standard model' cosmology is actually straight out of the pages of the Kabbalah, the Zohar and Babylonian mysticism. It is the product of anti-Christ religion. I hope that gives you something to consider.

So the understanding of the people who wrote the books that we call scripture is irrelevant? To me it seems like telling Ford that they havn't go a clue about how a 4 cylinder engine works. Perhaps there are different interpretations and developments but to write off the inventors of the sport as anti-Christ seems a little foolish.
Further to this, kaballah and zohar do not even form a part of the understanding that is put forward, far less Babylonian mysticism (although the Babylonian Jews gave a us a length of the lunar month that has only been matched by modern satellite technology).
If you read the Gerald Schroeder's article you will find that the understanding is almost ridiculously straightforward and logical (He does take a few minutes getting to his point).

I'm familiar with that argument. Mathemagic can make anything possible. But God is not the author of confusion, the metaphors and figures of speech in the Bible are consistent with FE and can be straightforwardly applied to physical creation without needing to plead ignorance, get abstract and mystical, and fly off with gematric yoda to the darth tree of knowledge. That's just where the devil wants you, floating in simulations in the new age gnostic babylon.

Mathematics are not magical, nor are they confusing, and YHWH is not confusing either. There is nothing gnostic or mystic about understanding the nuts and bolts of the world we live in.
But fuzzy thinking humans that can't hear his voice clearly have always placed interpretations on what He has said the bear little resemblance to what He meant. Jesus spent a large part of His time in Ministry exposing that sort of thing on important matters, and I dare say He would also be able to correct us on less important matters like this.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So the understanding of the people who wrote the books that we call scripture is irrelevant?

There's a key difference here, between Torah Judaism and so-called 'orthodox' Judaism. Orthodox rabbis often freely admit that the oral teachings contradict the Torah and have superseded it. This is the revolutionary spirit for which Jesus criticised the Pharisees. They'd departed so far from the spirit and meaning of the Torah they'd become sons of the devil. And they did in fact killed Christ, and reject him to this day ('His blood be on us and our children'). The Talmud has him punished in boiling excrement in hell! Would you buy a used dinghy from these guys?

Ancient near east scholars largely concur that the OT Hebrew understanding of the biblical cosmos was flat, motionless and enclosed. Everyone agreed back then apart from a few Greeks and Babylonians. It's kind of obvious from a even a cursory reading of the text.

Mathematics are not magical,

Maths can be used to prove 1=0. Godel's theorem demonstrates maths can only ultimately prove maths. It's scriptural and physical proofs we're after.

here is nothing gnostic or mystic about understanding the nuts and bolts of the world we live in.

Again, I'm not going to be drawn into a debate on things like gravity, outer space, celestial distances, earth motion, earth shape etc for which only theories apply, never proven by any observation or experiment. I hope you'll look into the truth movement/ conspiracy theory side of things, because you might find the devil doesn't just tell the lie of evolution and take a sabbath. He in fact deceiveth the whole world, and his minions work around the clock!

Jesus spent a large part of His time in Ministry exposing that sort of thing on important matters, and I dare say He would also be able to correct us on less important matters like this.

He did congratulate the Pharisees on their ability to 'discern the face of the earth and sky' in Luke 12:56. That was back when they accepted the plain meaning of scripture ie flat motionless enclosed.

 

[Anguspure]

There's a key difference here, between Torah Judaism and so-called 'orthodox' Judaism. Orthodox rabbis often freely admit that the oral teachings contradict the Torah and have superseded it. This is the revolutionary spirit for which Jesus criticised the Pharisees. They'd departed so far from the spirit and meaning of the Torah they'd become sons of the devil. And they did in fact killed Christ, and reject him to this day ('His blood be on us and our children'). The Talmud has him punished in boiling excrement in hell! Would you buy a used dinghy from these guys?

Actually, it was me who put Him on the cross. Nobody who rejected or rejects Him is responsible. They may have done the work that He wanted them to do but it was for me and all of us who trust Him that He did it.
As for whether I use thinking from a person, I follow this guidance:
"So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God."

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

You see when it comes to thinking about Truth; adhominen stuff has little to do with it. All truth belongs to Him. We just need to be investigative and critical but willing to see Him wherever He is portrayed.

Ancient near east scholars largely concur that the OT Hebrew understanding of the biblical cosmos was flat, motionless and enclosed. Everyone agreed back then apart from a few Greeks and Babylonians. It's kind of obvious from a even a cursory reading of the text.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Certainly Moses had some interesting thinking going on and Job was shown a different picture.
Nevertheless there were more important things on their mind, like how to obey YHWH every minute of every day.

Maths can be used to prove 1=0. Godel's theorem demonstrates maths can only ultimately prove maths. It's scriptural and physical proofs we're after.

Mathematics is a language and any language can be used to portray a lie, but here we are...should we stop speaking?

Again, I'm not going to be drawn into a debate on things like gravity, outer space, celestial distances, earth motion, earth shape etc for which only theories apply, never proven by any observation or experiment. I hope you'll look into the truth movement/ conspiracy theory side of things, because you might find the devil doesn't just tell the lie of evolution and take a sabbath. He in fact deceiveth the whole world, and his minions work around the clock!

His "mimions" also navigate ships and aeroplanes in such a way as to preserve and further the lives of many. Clearly with our understanding of these things we are serving the Creator, not the destroyer.

He did congratulate the Pharisees on their ability to 'discern the face of the earth and sky' in Luke 12:56. That was back when they accepted the plain meaning of scripture ie flat motionless enclosed.

He was talking about weather. Their grasp of this subject was pretty simplistic and vague (didn't involve the understanding of pressure systems, temperature gradients or C oriolis effect). Should I discard all the accumulated knowledge that gives me accurate hour by hour weather predictions 3 or 4 days ahead as magical gnosticism? I think not.
Nether should I discard more accurate understanding of what YHWH had Moses write, or any other scripture for that matter.
The reason we have so many different language translations of the Bible is because our understanding of the original texts are so heavily influenced by the assumptions and understandings of the translators at the time, and if these people believed in some strange ideas these also carry into the translated text.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Actually, it was me who put Him on the cross.

Yes, I was there too. But some of us repented. The Synagogue, less so.

Moses had some interesting thinking going on and Job was shown a different picture.

Genesis and Job are in perfect agreement as to the flat, stationary enclosed earth.

Mathematics is a language and any language can be used to portray a lie, but here we are...should we stop speaking?

No, but we need to be aware of the elisions and imperfections, and advanced maths is a specialisation, ie 'trust us'. It still needs to be logical.

His "mimions" also navigate ships and aeroplanes in such a way as to preserve and further the lives of many. Clearly with our understanding of these things we are serving the Creator, not the destroyer.

Don't get me started on aeroplanes. Suffice to say they're called planes for a reason, and gyroscopes have rigidity in space for a reason.

I don't see how technology serves God. Except maybe in providing access to the word of God and fellowship.

He was talking about weather.

No he was talking about the face of the earth and the sky.

Should I discard all the accumulated knowledge that gives me accurate hour by hour weather predictions 3 or 4 days ahead as magical gnosticism?

Look, I don't just wade in and announce the earth is flat because I like to cheese people off and be ridiculed. Same goes for the many engineers, pilots, sailors, navigators, surveyors, lawyers, researchers, gunners, military technical specialists, etc who have spent time on these topics to uncover the means and ways.

The reason we have so many different language translations of the Bible is because our understanding of the original texts are so heavily influenced by the assumptions and understandings of the translators at the time, and if these people believed in some strange ideas these also carry into the translated text.

False assumptions are indeed the big problem.
Strange ideas - did you know that Werner von Braun the Nazi rocket scientist who ran Nasa over those early years has 'Psalms 19:1' on his gravestone? They just love their numerology.

 

[Anguspure]

Yes, I was there too. But some of us repented. The Synagogue, less so.



Genesis and Job are in perfect agreement as to the flat, stationary enclosed earth.

The problem is that for a guy that sails the sea this is simply not a conspiracy. I am being respectful because of our forum but my daily experience for the last 30 odd years has been of a spherical world that is able to be navigated accurately only because we employ the observations that assume heliocentricism, as was employed (along with other amazing skills that we don't currently use) by all ancient navigators.

No, but we need to be aware of the elisions and imperfections, and advanced maths is a specialisation, ie 'trust us'. It still needs to be logical.

It is eminently logical! The mathematics employed is only one step above plane geometry. It ain't rocket science, nor is it black magic.

Don't get me started on aeroplanes. Suffice to say they're called planes for a reason,

aeroplane (n.)
1866, originally in reference to surfaces such as shell casings of beetle wings, from French aéroplane (1855), from Greek-derived aero- "air" (see air (n.1)) + stem of French planer "to soar," from Latin planus "level, flat" (from PIE root *pele- (2) "flat; to spread").

and gyroscopes have rigidity in space for a reason.

Yes! A gyroscope is rigid in space but not relative to the Earth. It precesses as the Earth moves in space. We observe this effect and correct for it electronically in our gyro compasses. If our calculations that assume heliocentricism are wrong then our Gyro compasses (3 of them on each ship) will go horribly wrong and we'll end up sitting on something hard and rocky. Thank God that we don't listen to the flat earthers.

I don't see how technology serves God. Except maybe in providing access to the word of God and fellowship.

Perfect relationship with all mankind under YHWH should be the object of all technology, and all technology could be used to further that goal. Look at our current method of communication on this website. If you think about it, it serves Him very well if we want it to.

No he was talking about the face of the earth and the sky.

Nope:
He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?

Look, I don't just wade in and announce the earth is flat because I like to cheese people off and be ridiculed. Same goes for the many engineers, pilots, sailors, navigators, surveyors, lawyers, researchers, gunners, military technical specialists, etc who have spent time on these topics to uncover the means and ways.

Can't argue with dudes who have spent "time on the topic" I guess. All I know is what I do, with full understanding and many years of daily observation. Perhaps you could con the current generation who have never really learnt to navigate and only press buttons on fancy calculators, but not me sorry.

False assumptions are indeed the big problem.
Strange ideas - did you know that Werner von Braun the Nazi rocket scientist who ran Nasa over those early years has 'Psalms 19:1' on his gravestone? They just love their numerology.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Not really controversial, I wouldn't have thought, for us Theists anyway.
This a little bit more so though: "Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge."
Perhaps David could hear voices....

 

[yeshuasavedme]

When God named the stretched out firmament

Heavens are named שָׁ מַיִם "pronounced Sha mayim/ two waters", he gave them a descriptive meaning using the alephbet that He invented.
"Sha- שָׁ is the Hebrew letter which was first written, in Edenic/Hebrew, as the two front teeth, It is sometimes used for "two" (the second Hebrew element of the alephbet "bet", is used in counting as the number two, mainly, but the Sha is also used as two.) You can also use the "sha" element to denote a cutting, which is why the two front incisors were used in early Hebrew for writing it. "Scissors" I would not doubt, has it's origins from the same.

mayim =Transliteration, an pronounciation is (mah'·yim ) From blb.org: Water/waters " מַיִם" (Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense)

BTW, I get my research, mainly, on the alephbet from Isaac Mozesen's Edenic web site and also the book "The Word", that he wrote, and from the book "Origins of Speech", that he wrote.

Strong's Hebrew: 8064. שָׁמַ֫יִם (shamayim) -- heaven, sky

Shamay'im = plural of "lofty vault" of the sky, "skies", "heavens" ?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well, since there were "no heavens" stretched out from the earth, between the "cut/divided in two primal waters of creation" until day two of creation week, then the Word of God does indeed teach that the earth is the center of the entire universe.
The sun itself was not made until day 4 of creation week, and was set in the heavens to rule over the light of the day...

Well, part of my point is that neither heliocentricity nor geocentricity are correct. Neither the sun nor the earth are the center of the universe. Helio was more right, but still wrong. All the Church had to go to was the facts from the Bible. There was no way to prove geocentricity to be correct.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi again,
Noah in Greek means rest or comfort because that is it's Hebrew meaning, so they couldn't change the meaning, but they could use the name to mean something they relate to it, like names come to mean things other than what they are, in their root meanings. Sodom and Gomorrah were names of men who established the cities named after them, but after the nuking of them from above, they came to mean sodomy and Gonorrhea, from the actions and results of doing what was done in them. There are lots and lots and lots of names that now relate to the happenings that occured in their times or done by the first persons so named, so as to relate to things the person did, but only in the Word did the names of the patriarchs be named prophetically for things done in their lifetimes, before they happened, and all together the list of Patriarch's make a complete sentence about redemption after the fall.

Even taking the names of all the named patriarchs from Adam down the line to Jesus Christ, not through other tribal lines, the complete story of creation and redemption is told, which I once saw on youtube, but would have to look for again.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUs8f-lphec

Hebrew Japheth = Greek Iapetos
Hebrew goren = Greek agora [smooth open forum atop hill]
Hebrew Noah = Greco-Roman Naval, Nautical

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The problem is that for a guy that sails the sea this is simply not a conspiracy.

There are many experienced sailors who would and do disagree.

Yes! A gyroscope is rigid in space but not relative to the Earth. It precesses as the Earth moves in space. We observe this effect and correct for it electronically in our gyro compasses.

That's right, so it would be useless in an aeroplane, for example.

Nope:
He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is.

Ok you can have that one!

Can't argue with dudes who have spent "time on the topic" I guess. All I know is what I do, with full understanding and many years of daily observation. Perhaps you could con the current generation who have never really learnt to navigate and only press buttons on fancy calculators, but not me sorry.

Ok Admiral, I'm hearing you. Let's flush the Captain Cooks of the world, scrap all those US military guidance systems described in multiple declassified technical docs that expressly state flat nonrotating earth as a core assumption. Hell, who'd name a boat 'Nimitz' anyway.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

That's firmament, raqia. As in the vault of heaven. As in Gen 1 (KJV):

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

We might consider the barrier required between a high and low pressure system to keep the 2nd law of thermodynamics acting to suck the atmosphere into the void. Unless you're wacky enough to take the Bible on face value and believe in waters above.

Strong's Hebrew: 7549. רָקִ֫יעַ (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse

Anyway brother, feel free to continue to lean on your own understanding. I'll just let God be true if that's ok.

 

[prodromos]

There are many experienced sailors who would and do disagree.

Another one of those assertions.

That's right, so it would be useless in an aeroplane, for example.

You obviously don't know how an artificial horizon in an aeroplane works. It automatically adjusts for the curvature of the earth.

scrap all those US military guidance systems described in multiple declassified technical docs that expressly state flat nonrotating earth as a core assumption.

Another assertion.

We might consider the barrier required between a high and low pressure system to keep the 2nd law of thermodynamics acting to suck the atmosphere into the void.

The atmosphere has a gradient of pressure ranging from 1 atmosphere at sea level to almost zero at the edge of space. Pressure is a measure of the kinetic energy of the air molecules. The air molecules at the edge of space have so little energy that the earth's gravity keeps them from wandering off into space.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It would appear that my request for an explanation for how the flat earth model accounts for both seasons and the day-night cycle is going to go ignored. So let's take it on anyway.

Best as I can tell the usual flat earth argument (images taken from Flat Earth - Frequently Asked Questions) for how seasons operate on a flat earth involves the movement of the sun between the tropics:

As such over the course of the year the sun's position changes, resulting in seasonal variation and accounting for why summer in the north is winter in the south and vice versa.

Fair enough.

Now let's look at the day-night cycle:

So, fair enough.

But many of you should immediately spot the problem.

To help illustrate the problem I've taken one of the season images from the flat earth society's website, fiddled with it in photoshop, and transformed it into a gif:

-CryptoLutheran

 

[prodromos]

It would appear that my request for an explanation for how the flat earth model accounts for both seasons and the day-night cycle is going to go ignored. So let's take it on anyway.

Best as I can tell the usual flat earth argument (images taken from Flat Earth - Frequently Asked Questions) for how seasons operate on a flat earth involves the movement of the sun between the tropics:

As such over the course of the year the sun's position changes, resulting in seasonal variation and accounting for why summer in the north is winter in the south and vice versa.

Fair enough.

Now let's look at the day-night cycle:

So, fair enough.

But many of you should immediately spot the problem.

To help illustrate the problem I've taken one of the season images from the flat earth society's website, fiddled with it in photoshop, and transformed it into a gif:

View attachment 264358

-CryptoLutheran

Their models also fail to account for the sun being visible all day during the Summer in Antarctica. According to their model, it should always be pitch black at night in Antarctica regardless of the season.

Another issue is their claim that light from the sun is refracted downwards which is why the sun is not visible at night even though on a flat earth it should always be visible. The problem with this is that light from the sun goes out in all directions, it isn't a spotlight, which means that light rays which wouldn't have reached the earth's surface in day time are refracted down and will now be visible at night. Their models fail the most basic examinations.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Their models also fail to account for the sun being visible all day during the Summer in Antarctica

You forget, there is no "Antarctica" in their model, there's just the magical ice wall that nobody is allowed to go near. Even though people take cruises to visit Antarctica all the time.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[prodromos]

You forget, there is no "Antarctica" in their model, there's just the magical ice wall that nobody is allowed to go near. Even though people take cruises to visit Antarctica all the time.

-CryptoLutheran

Well then, their magical ice wall sees the sun for 24 hours during Summer, no matter what part of their flat earth model ice wall you are visiting, even on opposite sides of the 'plane'. Impossible in their model, yet it happens every Summer.