Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

[the iconoclast]

I'm not going to take this thread off topic, and what I do outside CF isn't any of your business.

Hey kylie

Fair enough. Looks like @sfs and @The Barbarian have stagnated. We will continue our original discussion soon.

Cant wait! Cheers

 

[Aman777]

So you're admitting that, contrary to your assertion, Genesis does not agree with science?

Well done and thank you.

Did you miss the fact that NO man who lived 3k years ago knew or could have written that ALL life on this Earth, from Whales to Birds, had it's origin in water? Science agrees https://www.newscientist.com › article › 2098564-universal-ancestor-of-all...Jul 25, 2016 with Scripture. Genesis 1:21. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

You've been repeatedly refuted. You just don't seem to care.

All these discussions have revealed is that you cherry pick the things that you want to accept and then invent fan fiction to explain away the things that don't. Our discussion of musical instruments is a prime example; when shown that musical instruments have a ~40,000 year history, you just arbitrarily dismiss that. The fact is is that scripture, science, history and genetics all seem to disagree with you (can't speak for whatever math you are referring to).

In the end, everything you've posted can be summed as, "the things I believe agree with the things that I believe". Not terribly impressive I'm afraid.

The flutophone I played in the 4th Grade and paid $2.00 for is a modern Human instrument while your's is obviously the remains of dinner with Cave men. I also listened to a man try to play it but found it hideous and made up. To call that thing the Neanderthal Flute is ridiculous. I can make the same sound with an empty Coke bottle.

 

[Aman777]

Cool fan theory. Do you have anything to support your interpretation?

Thanks. Scripture, science, history, genetics and math support my view. It's the ONLY way to find God's Truth, the One irrefutable Truth. Amen?

 

[pitabread]

The flutophone I played in the 4th Grade and paid $2.00 for is a modern Human instrument while your's is obviously the remains of dinner with Cave men. I also listened to a man try to play it but found it hideous and made up. To call that thing the Neanderthal Flute is ridiculous.

Bone flutes are real instruments and are still in use today. You can handwave all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that musical instruments pre-date your supposed "modern human" time line by tens of thousands of years.

Just one example from many of where science and history don't agree with you.

 

[Aman777]

Bone flutes are real instruments and are still in use today. You can handwave all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that musical instruments pre-date your supposed "modern human" time line by tens of thousands of years.

Just one example from many of where science and history don't agree with you.

Not so unless you can tell us how and when we changed from animal to Human (descendant of Adam) intelligence. Animal intelligence suddenly changed into reasoning Human intelligence some 11k years ago, in the mountains of Ararat and it was recorded.

Animal intelligence is innocent, since all creatures which came to be "naturally" from water, do not know good from evil. When you mix animal intelligence (prehistoric people) with Human (descendant of Adam) intelligence you get the Nephiyl or the giants intellectually in the following verse:

Gen 6:4 There were giants (Nephiyl) in the earth in those days; and also after that, (on the present Earth) when the sons of God (prehistoric man) came in unto the daughters of men, (Heb-Adam) and they bare children to them, the same (giants) became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Today's Humans (descendants of Adam) number some 7.7 Billion living today. We are the Nephiyl, the intellectual giants of the Cosmos. We have the superior intelligence, which is like God's, Genesis 3:22 with the ability to judge, which ONLY Adam and God have. The first Human to walk on this Earth was Noah, a direct descendant of the first Human, Adam.

Our "natural" ancestors inherited the superior intelligence of Adam, through Noah's grandsons, who had NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry. They married a descendant of the last universal common ancestor and produced us. That is God's Truth in every way. Amen?

 

[pitabread]

Not so unless you can tell us how and when we changed from animal to Human (descendant of Adam) intelligence.

I believe you've been pointed to this more than once: Evolution of the brain - Wikipedia

Animal intelligence suddenly changed into reasoning Human intelligence some 11k years ago, in the mountains of Ararat and it was recorded.

Unsupported assertion (along with everything else in the post) that is not supported by science, history, genetics or math.

Amen?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Did you miss the fact that NO man who lived 3k years ago knew or could have written that ALL life on this Earth, from Whales to Birds, had it's origin in water? Science agrees https://www.newscientist.com › article › 2098564-universal-ancestor-of-all...Jul 25, 2016 with Scripture. Genesis 1:21. Amen?

Science says all life had its origin in water. Aman777 and Genesis say some animals came from earth. Do you really not see how those two propositions are not compatible?

 

[the iconoclast]

But therein lies the rub. Various creationists on this forum over time have claimed various interpretations of Biblical scripture and appealed to divine inspiration in the interpretation thereof.

Hey hey pitabread glad to see that you are motivated.

I cannot comment here as i am unfamiliar with these various creationists you refer to. Could you give me an instance?

Some even go so far as to claim that their interpretations are requirements to be a Christian (there are creationists on this site that do *not* consider fellow Christians with different interpretations to be real Christians).

Could you provide some examples?

What defines somebody as a christian? Im a Christian, what makes me one?

What defines somebody as an atheist? You are an atheist, what makes you one?

If there really were a supernatural deity that was guiding individual interpretations of Biblical scripture, then why so many radically different interpretations?

John 1 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

2 Timothy 3:15-17
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

What different interpretations do you refer to?

How does God guide interpretations?

(Aman777 claims this is intentional. Do you agree with that?)

What does brother aman777 claim as intentional?

Confused.

Why does this make you confused? How should things be?

I'm here for the same reason everyone is here: arguments and upvotes.

Im not here for the upvotes, im here to produce for my Lord.

Kylies here to make christians critical thinkers - in a sense.

Insofar as xinghua's arguments go, I had previously asked if you were going to defend his arguments and you admitted you weren't even familiar with them.

Iam not familiar with all of xings arguments. Neither am i familiar with all of yours. Heads up im not familiar with av's either or brother sfs.

I asked you to explain why xing was wrong and you would not.

Where do we go from here?

Just like you appear unfamiliar with Aman777's arguments.

Where should we go from here?

If you feel so strongly about this, why aren't you reading their posts? Why aren't you defending their arguments?

Did i say i feel strongly about about this? What argument would you like me to defend?

Given the thousands of belief systems that have existed throughout history, I don't believe that any individual religion is true.

So, you dont believe Jesus is who He says He is because there are 1000s of belief systems? How do 1000s of belief systems make Jesus false?

Rather differing religious beliefs appear to be cultural ideas that have developed and evolved over time, and are spread via cultural influence.

How is the belief that Jesus Christ is reconciliation between God and man a cultural idea and spread via cultural influence? Are Christian religious experiences more a cultural thing?

Cheers

 

[pitabread]

I cannot comment here as i am unfamiliar with these various creationists you refer to. Could you give me an instance?

Seems to be the pattern of your entire post, but I'm not doing your homework for you.

You seem to take exception to the way others interact with creationists on this site, but by the same token seem to have little to no interest in what those same creationists are posting on the site.

Doesn't seem like there is anything else to discuss.

 

[Kylie]

Did you miss the fact that NO man who lived 3k years ago knew or could have written that ALL life on this Earth, from Whales to Birds, had it's origin in water? Science agrees https://www.newscientist.com › article › 2098564-universal-ancestor-of-all...Jul 25, 2016 with Scripture. Genesis 1:21. Amen?

Of course no man could have known that. That's why he wrote that a lot of it came from the ground instead, like cattle, and creeping things and Humans themselves.

 

[Kylie]

Thanks. Scripture, science, history, genetics and math support my view. It's the ONLY way to find God's Truth, the One irrefutable Truth. Amen?

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that you have come up with an interpretation of Scripture that matches what science has shown us, just so you can say that scripture said it first, even though there is scant evidence to support your claim that your interpretation is the intended one.

And, of course, you are basing your interpretation on, "Well, this is what science says, so I have to find an interpretation that agrees with science." Once again, religion bending over backwards to accommodate science, because as well all know, when science and religion disagree, it's always science that wins because science produces results.

 

[the iconoclast]

Seems to be the pattern of your entire post, but I'm not doing your homework for you.

Hey hey pitabread you diamond

There is a pattern, a pattern of you making generalized statements. Its not my homework, its yours. You made a heap of statements which you were not prepared to defend or possibly, didnt know how to.

You seem to take exception to the way others interact with creationists on this site,

I have noticed an elitist attitude by some who oppose creationism. My favorite is when our iq and grasp of reality is mocked. Heads up, i will not stop you from assuming anything you want about my person. Its way more fun!!

but by the same token seem to have little to no interest in what those same creationists are posting on the site.

Well dont be shy, what am i to defend or argue? You have been vague with your info.

Doesn't seem like there is anything else to discuss.

Theres plenty to discuss. I am ready for you when you are ready for me my dear.

Dont fear my dear, i am here and with cheer. Sincere(ly) the i-c-noclass ...cheers. ;p

 

[the iconoclast]

because as well all know, when science and religion disagree, it's always science that wins because science produces results.

Hey hey kylie

You speak of science like it is your faith. Your faith is in men who reason with facts, dont think its anything more special than that.

Our next round will continue shortly. @pitabread has got nothing - so it would seem - and my 2 brothers in Christ have slumped in motivation.

See this why your my favourite atheist and favourite person on site, at least you put up a fight.

For that i have a form of respect you.

Get ready my dear, im reviewing your last post in my since deleted thread.

;p

 

[46AND2]

I have noticed an elitist attitude by some who oppose creationism.

You mistake elitism for incredulity.

 

[SLP]

You ignored the fact that God the Trinity created "EVERY living creature that moveth" from Water on the 5th Day.

I missed where this was shown to BE a fact.

 

[SLP]

I understand evolution up to the point where interpretations take-on speculation & projection.

I don't think you do, for this has literally nothing to do with evolution (and vice versa):

... this wondrous universe coming about spontaneously from singularity (the meaning of which I barely understand) in a big bang...​

Why indicate that it does?
This seems a bit of a conflation and/or out of date:

...a “single cell something” rising up from a mud hole (primordial soup of some kind) “on its own” in baron [sic], inhospitable conditions...​

And this isn't so bad, except for the 'linear' part... and the loaded terms:

... and becoming “the common ancestor” in a linear progression to the varieties of everything on a beautifully complex earth, including man...​

Now let us contrast that with what I have concluded most creationists accept:

...for no apparent reason, ~6000 years ago, one of several middle eastern deities (see below) decided to create the entire universe and everything in it over the course of 6 24-hour days... making a fully-formed adult human male from the dust of the ground, this deity then paraded all the beasts it had already made, from which this first man was to choose 'an helpmeet'... Didn't work out, so the deity then took a rib (or bit of flesh from the side) of the man and created a woman. Why the deity could not just have made a woman from dust also is not explained. It is also not explained whether or not the deity also made an additional sex for the beasts already created, presumably from dust... Later, around 4500 years ago, this deity got mad at his human creations, so decided to slaughter the lot of them (along with all but a pair, or 7 pair, of all of the air-breathing creatures for some reason) with a "world-wide" flood. A flood that did not seem to bother any of the nearby civilizations (e.g., Egyptian Old Kingdom)... then, right after the flood waters subsided, mega-evolution took place (according to some creationists who claim "Kind" is equivalent to the taxonomic level of 'Family') and within a really short period of time, things are pretty much the way they are now. And all of these events left no actual evidence at all.

Did I miss anything?


==After all the 1st Commandment indicates that there were/are other gods, just that Jehovah wants to be the only one humans worship:

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

if Jehovah was the ONLY god, then it seems that this Commandment is superfluous.

"jargon and defense." Interesting choice of words!

I thought it suitable verbiage to describe the macroevolution pitch.

Which means that you are not familiar with the relevant scientific terminology, I suppose. And by 'pitch', I suppose you are referring to the evidence-backed presentation of arguments in its favor? I should think that informed creationists would have no problem with macroevolution, since it does help to add some plausibility to the Noah story. Not much, but some.
Regarding "defense" - what do you propose one do in order to counter largely uninformed 'attacks', but provide a 'defense'?

...but how people are completely sold on biblical creation by an Almighty God for which there is no evidence and at the same time regard things they admit (or exhibit) they do not understand and dismiss as a fairy tale, really puzzles me.

You sort of twisted my use of 'fairy tale' in your statement.

I don't think I did.

Perhaps you overlooked my comment "For me, I love the Bible and science."

For one that loves science, I find it odd that your pejoratively used the word "jargon" above - for would not one that loves science at least be conversant with the language of science?

If you will read my OP again, you will see that my reference was 'how can people accept our existence as being an incredibly lucky shot,'

Yes, I saw that. But I wonder why one that loves science would describe evolution as "our existence as being an incredibly lucky shot". That is not what evolution posits. That is not even really what abiogenesis (which is not part of the theory of evolution) posits. It looks like your love for the bible clouds your judgement of the science.

on the one hand, and then refer to the Biblical Creation as a fairy tale, on the other.

Ok, would 'creation myth' be more palatable? There are many creation myths among the many cultural traditions of ancient peoples. They all seem to have the same amount of evidence in their support that the Hebrew creation story does.

I don't regard science as a fairy tale, I just disagree with some interpretations of evidence.

And why should someone take your criticisms seriously? Do you have specific, science-based arguments against interpretations of evidence supportive of evolution? Or is it your love of the bible that makes you reject science that does not or cannot be made to conform to bible lore?

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Animal intelligence suddenly changed into reasoning Human intelligence some 11k years ago, in the mountains of Ararat and it was recorded.

Unsupported assertion (along with everything else in the post) that is not supported by science, history, genetics or math.

Adam farmed with NO evolution and the first evidence of farming on this planet SUDDENLY appeared 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat. The first Humans (descendants of Adam) arrived in mile high Lake Van, in Turkey. Noah walked down from the Lake into Northern Mesopotamia, the cradle of Human civilization on this Earth. That is God's Truth Scripturally, scientifically, and historically. Here is a map of the area where the FIRST traits of Humans on this Earth are found. It's the record which NO evolutionist will accept nor can possibly explain. Amen?

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

 

[pitabread]

Adam farmed with NO evolution and the first evidence of farming on this planet SUDDENLY appeared 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat.

First evidence of farming in Mideast 23,000 years ago: Evidence of earliest small-scale agricultural cultivation

Oops, looks like science doesn't agree with you again.

 

[Aman777]

Science says all life had its origin in water. Aman777 and Genesis say some animals came from earth. Do you really not see how those two propositions are not compatible?

No, because I can clearly see that God created first from water on the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21 I can also see that LORD God formed temporary creatures, which were subject to death, from the ground, on the present 6th Day. Genesis 2:19

As you can see, there are two creations, the Eternal one by God the Trinity and the temporary creations formed by LORD God, or the Son of God, called YHWH in the Old and Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Jesus also made Adam/mankind who MUST be born again Spiritually by God the Trinity in order to see the Kingdom of God. Genesis 1:26 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16

Unless you know both God the Father and God the Son, you will remain in darkness. I see the temporary formations of creatures by Jesus as the common ancestors which is what Science calls them. Amen?