Questions About the Sabbath? Ask Me.

[D.A. Wright]

I know what SDAs teach which is not true to the Bible Bob.

Doubtless

Your interpretation of Matt 19 has to support your preconceived ideas yet you and the church do not live your lives according to the laws given to Israel.

What's so cryptic about Matthew 19? Only the part of the commandments involving our relationship to others are mentioned at first. And then He bids him abandon his covetousness, give up his idols, and Follow Him. No preconceived ideas there--just chiseled-in-stone items.

The fact is that Jesus said not one jot....till ALL is fulfilled.

You're confusing Jesus with Paul now. Paul makes it clear that the handwriting contained in ordinances was nailed to the cross--not the ten commandments. You do know there is more than one meaning for the word "law" in the Bible, right, Bob?

 

[seeking.IAM]

Sabbath threads always deteriorate into debates of Saturday or Sunday, and whether Christians are under the new covenant or obligated to keep the law. Askanadventist, what I always really want to know that few ever seem to get to is exactly what different persons do or don't do as they keep their Sabbath observance. For example, beyond not doing usual work and worshipping, what are your other Sabbath practices? Do you kindle a flame (turn on a light switch, fire up the grill?), eat pre-prepared meals, limit travel, eat in a restaurant causing others to work, shop, etc? I would like to know more about that.

 

[D.A. Wright]

-

 

[D.A. Wright]

Sabbath threads always deteriorate into debates of Saturday or Sunday, and whether Christians are under the new covenant or obligated to keep the law. Askanadventist, what I always really want to know that few ever seem to get to is exactly what different persons do or don't do as they keep their Sabbath observance. For example, beyond not doing usual work and worshipping, what are your other Sabbath practices? Do you kindle a flame (turn on a light switch, fire up the grill?), eat pre-prepared meals, limit travel, eat in a restaurant causing others to work, shop, etc? I would like to know more about that.

The laws given for sabbath-keeping, besides what is contained within the commandment itself, were given to keep order amongst a caravan of roughly 2 million barbarians. Sabbath-keeping, as an act of worshipping in spirit (John 4:24), is a pursuit to spend focused, holy, quality time with God, and our neighbors. There are guidelines throughout the Bible to aid in the planning and practice, but the general rule is to make it as special as possible for all involved, so it will be a delight as prescribed in Isaiah 58, and so that it will become as welcome every week as many people would welcome Christmas morning. It is quite manageable, and very sweet to the soul who will avail himself of it. It is a foretaste of Heaven to me. There is no one-size-fits-all blueprint. Some traditions have included nature walks, potluck dinners, neighborhood witnessing, testimony-giving, visits to hospitals/nursing homes, visiting the homes of shut-ins (folks who can't make it to church any more due to illness, limited mobility, etc.). Some folks like to have a special meal on Friday afternoon that might include special dishes reserved for that day. Some even relish in a relaxing nap after the divine worship service. This is often jokingly referred to as "Lay" activities. The important thing is to try to craft a respite that leaves you feeling refreshed to begin the new week with a renewed joy in the Lord.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Some folks like to...

Yes, I know what the law says, thank you. I don't expect a one-size-fits-all blueprint, but I'm always curious about what an individual's practice is. But I can't get folks to really answer that. Apparently, I still can't. They'd rather teach about what the law says than say what it is they do.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan, welcome back to the forum. Long-time no see.

Nice to be back.

Please explain why SDAs revert back to the old covenant when it is so plain that the prophecy in Jeremiah of a new covenant happened at Calvery .

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 makes it very clear that the "law" written on the heart - was the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew about from Exodus 20 as Christ reminds us in Matthew 19 and so that covenant is unchanged as we find it again in Hebrews 8.

We call this exegesis.

You already knew that - but ... nice to have yet another chance to state the point.

I know what SDAs teach which is not true to the Bible Bob.

a. Jeremiah 31:31-33 is true.
b. exegesis matters
c. SDAs did not write Jeremiah 31 or MAtthew 19 or Hebrews 8 or Exodus 20.

I think we all knew that.

Your interpretation of Matt 19 has to support your preconceived ideas

I did not interpret anything - you post "Matt 19" as a text ref ... so did I.

yet you and the church do not live your lives according to the laws given to Israel.

"you and the church"?? you mean the Christian church I assume since the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Catholic Catechism all agree that Jeremiah 31 is referencing/including the TEN Commandments (all TEN) as the LAW written on the heart.

You knew that as well -- since we have noticed this detail many times in the past in our discussions.

Not one jot nor one tittle will pass from the law until According to you Jesus didn't fulfill all

Jesus is the one bringing up the TEN in Matt 19 and Paul brings up that same list from the TEN in Rom 13... are you accusing Jesus and Paul of not believing your spin of Matt 5? Please say it aint so!

Is it your argument that the entire Christian church, and Jesus and Paul are in error?

Is it your claim that if "do not take God's name in vain" is still part of the LAW of God that defines what sin is today (1 John 3:4) then Jesus' death on the cross failed ?

 

[BobRyan]

I would never dismiss the New Testament. I simply do not believe that Old Testament content is selectively nullified by the absence of its reiteration in the New. I must say you've got your nerve.

IF "it were true" that the much imagined rule of "whatever is not constantly repeated can freely be deleted" -- actually had substance to it... then "do not take God's name in vain" would be deleted for NT readers.

Thankfully such adhoc rules that are the source of "creative writing alone" -- are not recognized by the Bible as legit.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Yes, I know what the law says, thank you. I don't expect a one-size-fits-all blueprint, but I'm always curious about what an individual's practice is. But I can't get folks to really answer that. Apparently, I still can't. They'd rather teach about what the law says than say what it is they do.

Did you even read my post?

 

[D.A. Wright]

I think we might be losing sight of something here.

Glaring, Ad Hominem, logically fallacious wordsmithing leveled at The Seventh-day Adventist Church lend absolutely nothing to a discussion about the perpetuity of divine law.

Not to mention the open mockery of Biblical prophets as a cheap,dispicable, tongue-in-cheek effect to aid in throwing the symbolic baby out with the literal bath water.

The Church uses none of the words of Ellen G. White to support its doctrinal positions. I certainly never initiate such use.

The Church claims to be the vehicle of the culmination of the Protestant Reformation and, yet, any informed Seventh-day Adventist knows that there is every reason to suspect that among those who have called themselves Christians and eventually stand before Jesus face-to-face, redeemed, most will have gone down to Catholic graves.

And all arrow-slinging will have long since ceased.

 

[D.A. Wright]

-

 

[Albion]

So am I to assume that you decline or refuse to admit or deny that you have here literally accused me of both unbelief in the Bible, in general, and dismissing the New Testament, in specific?

Lots of different choices there.

No. What I am saying is that there is a logical contradiction between saying that one believes in the verbal inspiration of the Bible (which many Protestants do) and then ruling out parts of it. I don't know what you yourself believe about the Bible.

However, I read various posts here from different people who do affirm a belief in "the Bible" but also say that Paul (for example) was wrong, wrong, wrong about women in church or something else. Doing that creates an impossible contradiction. I was simply pointing to this point as one which many sincere people haven't ever contemplated.

 

[nChrist]

Many things in the Old Testament were just a shadow of things to come. The REALITY came in the New Testament, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever. Further, Jesus Christ owns all days, 24/7/365. I'll worship Him every day, and He is my rest forever.

Romans 14:5-6 KJV One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:13-17 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Lots of different choices there.

No. What I am saying is that there is a logical contradiction between saying that one believes in the verbal inspiration of the Bible (which many Protestants do) and then ruling out parts of it. I don't know what you yourself believe about the Bible.

However, I read various posts here from different people who do affirm a belief in "the Bible" but also say that Paul (for example) was wrong, wrong, wrong about women in church or something else. Doing that creates an impossible contradiction. I was simply pointing to this point as one which many sincere people haven't ever contemplated.

I can see now that I have hastily read too much into what you said.

I am sorry.

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath threads always deteriorate into debates of Saturday or Sunday,

But not on this board. Members on this board at least - are informed to the point of knowing which day of the week is the 7th day - as a result it is pretty hard to find someone who will claim that Sunday is the 7th day of the week no matter if they keep Saturday or Sunday as their day of worship.

The Bible says "the 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 and most people here admit it - no matter which side of the debate they may be on.

and whether Christians are under the new covenant

On this board almost everyone agrees not only that we are under the New Covenant but also that the New Covenant is found in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and also found unchanged .. in the NT in Hebrews 8.

or obligated to keep the law.

On this board it is very hard to find someone who will stand up for "taking God's name in vain" or who will argue that doing such a thing is not a sin anymore... no matter which side of the debate they may be seen to argue for.

Askanadventist, what I always really want to know that few ever seem to get to is exactly what different persons do or don't do as they keep their Sabbath observance.

As Askanadventist said -- the keeping of the Sabbath is outlined in Ex 20:8-11 - a day of rest (and also in Lev 23:2-3 a day of corporate worship, holy assembly and also in Isaiah 58:13 a day to avoid secular activity).

So then no shopping at stores, no watching football, no mowing the lawn.. a day of rest and holy assembly.

In Israel the temple was guarded on Sabbath and they had candle light and oil lamps at night even at the time of Christ -- a similar rule for "basics" holds today.

( For example, beyond not doing usual work and worshipping, what are your other Sabbath practices? Do you kindle a flame (turn on a light switch, fire up the grill?), eat pre-prepared meals, limit travel, eat in a restaurant causing others to work, shop, etc? I would like to know more about that.[/QUOTE]

I for one do not go to restaurants for the very reason you state and it is pretty hard to find any SDA church that will "have a catered meal" on Sabbath as potluck.

More importantly - have you chosen to ignore or keep the Sabbath in God's Ten Commandments?

Notice how Paul drags the Ten into his text in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:2 even though it was not required that he do so?

 

[BobRyan]

However, I read various posts here from different people who do affirm a belief in "the Bible" but also say that Paul (for example) was wrong, wrong, wrong about women in church or something else. Doing that creates an impossible contradiction. .

Agreed. I have not found that so much on this board - but I have been posting on another board this year where that seems to be very popular with about half a dozen people who post with that particular view. I thought only Muslims argued that "Paul is wrong wrong wrong" until I found that other board.

 

[BobRyan]

Many things in the Old Testament were just a shadow of things to come. The REALITY came in the New Testament, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever.

True - but as the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of faith both freely stated in section 19 of each document - that "reality" did not make it ok to take God's name in vain or to break one of the Ten Commandments. Most Christian denominations agree that the TEN (all TEN) are included in the moral law of God.

Further, Jesus Christ owns all days, 24/7/365 and always has - so when He (the creator of the World John 1:1-5) says to Keep His 7th day Holy - even Christians can afford to sit up and take notice - as almost all Christian denominations have admitted at one time or another.

I'll worship Him every day, and He is my rest forever.

And that includes not just "saying Lord Lord" but following scripture in practice "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

At this point I should point out that the texts I have referenced here are already posted on this forum by me and others about a bazillion times, since they are so helpful in responding to the very points you mention.

Romans 14:5-6 KJV One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:13-17 (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Thank you for posting that...At this point I should point out that the texts you just quoted are already quoted and also referenced on this forum by one or two other members of the board about a bazillion times to raise the question of whether Romans 14 mentions the 7th day Sabbath (which it does not) and the question of whether Col 2:8-23 is condemning man-made-traditions as it says it is - or whether it could be imagined to condemn scripture itself.

(posted so many bazillions of times that there are actually several threads here devoted to that very point).

In any case thanks for posting those texts "again".

Bob

 

[Bob S]

The ten commandments were made up of nine commands concerning morality. The fourth command was concerning the day of rest. They were the "if" covenant given to Israel. Israel broke the covenant so it and its laws are now defunct. see 3Cor3: 6-11 We are under the new covenant that
has better laws.

 

[BobRyan]

The ten commandments were made up of nine commands concerning morality. .

Nope - they are made up of the TEN Commandments and this is the moral law of God written on the heart
all TEN written on stone...
all TEN kept inside the ark of the covenant
all TEN spoken directly by God himself to all the nation of Israel ...
all TEN still held as a single using such that Paul can say of that unit that the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2.
all TEN included in the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-33 where we find the NEW Covenant with the LAW of God written on the heart.

Details that are freely admitted by almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth - including the Catholic Catechism, the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19.

Not saying you don't have the right to make up your own stuff - but reality being what it is...

 

[nChrist]

True - but as the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of faith both freely stated in section 19 of each document - that "reality" did not make it ok to take God's name in vain or to break one of the Ten Commandments. Most Christian denominations agree that the TEN (all TEN) are included in the moral law of God.

Further, Jesus Christ owns all days, 24/7/365 and always has - so when He (the creator of the World John 1:1-5) says to Keep His 7th day Holy - even Christians can afford to sit up and take notice - as almost all Christian denominations have admitted at one time or another.

I'll worship Him every day, and He is my rest forever.

And that includes not just "saying Lord Lord" but following scripture in practice "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

At this point I should point out that the texts I have referenced here are already posted on this forum by me and others about a bazillion times, since they are so helpful in responding to the very points you mention.



Thank you for posting that...At this point I should point out that the texts you just quoted are already quoted and also referenced on this forum by one or two other members of the board about a bazillion times to raise the question of whether Romans 14 mentions the 7th day Sabbath (which it does not) and the question of whether Col 2:8-23 is condemning man-made-traditions as it says it is - or whether it could be imagined to condemn scripture itself.

(posted so many bazillions of times that there are actually several threads here devoted to that very point).

In any case thanks for posting those texts "again".

Bob

You're most welcome. You're welcome to join our group hoping to make the Sabbath a Tuesday or Thursday. I make every day the Sabbath because Jesus Christ is the Lord over all days.

 

[D.A. Wright]

You're most welcome. You're welcome to join our group hoping to make the Sabbath a Tuesday or Thursday. I make every day the Sabbath because Jesus Christ is the Lord over all days.

You must either be retired or have a really great job.