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Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
I find it very persuasive.
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Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
What's persuasive? The Irenaeus quote?
Caligula placed a clay alter within the City which the Jews destroyed. After this he ordered a statue to be placed in the Temple.Caligula died before this statue was placed in the Temple. The order was rescinded and the statue was never placed in the Temple. Also, there's only 3.5 years left after the AoD so it couldn't fit with scriptureI had .this on another thread but thought it would be appropriate here.
What do others think about Josephus's mention of a statue of Caligula being put the Temple years before the Temple got decimated in 70ad? Could this be the AoD talked about in Matthew and Mark?
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Abomination Desolation
Matthew 24:15
Whenever then, ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops, then be knowing that come nigh the desolating<2050> of Her
A form of #2050 is used for the desolation of the great City in Revelation 18.
Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world..........
It may, therefore, appear absurd to attempt a distinct elucidation of this part of the prophecy ; nevertheless, it ought not to be omitted, that about this time, the emperor Caligula, having ordered his statue to be placed in the temple of Jerusalem, and the Jews having persisted to refuse him, the whole nation were so much alarmed, by the mere apprehension of war, that they neglected even to till their lands !
The storm, however, blew over.
.
JackRT said: ↑
Ummm ---- Revelation was written about AD 95 which places it after Josephus.
That would make for an interesting study......Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
Hello John and thanks for responding.
Then John would be writing about the 1st century destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem after it occurred?
Jesus and Paul had already warned the pre 70ad Jews of the pending destruction of the City and Temple.....And now perhaps the present day Jews can read Revelation and see that Jesus did indeed fulfill all things for them.
IMHO
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>
Luke 19:44
“and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833 without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.
.
Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?No John did not write about the past destruction of the temple! He wrote about future events!
Revelation 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
One must remember that John wrote this from the isle of Patmos and would not have had much communication with Jerusalem. The Jews would not tell him what was going on and the believers had fled Judea! It was used by Rome as a prison island so John would have had little contact with the outside world.
The ante nicene fathers speak of John being alive during the reign of Domitian which places him at the end of the first century!
Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
The table of showbread was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness. So much OT imagery and so little time.........
I can vision John standing inside the holy place of a Tabernacle. [John would probably be a Hebrew Jew and perhaps even of a priestly class].
While he is standing there, he hears a Voice BEHIND him.
He TURNS and sees Jesus in midst of lamp-stands
Typical carnal dispensationalist futurist............Oh, your a Baptist, now I understandMaybe He was teh ghost of Christmas future then! C'mon be serious!
John was a fisherman- so no he was not of the priestly class of levites of cohens.
What about teh rest of HIs vision he wrote down in 21 other chapters ? Did they happen in Johns day while He was whooshing around as an ethereal being?
JackRT said: ↑
Ummm ---- Revelation was written about AD 95 which places it after Josephus.
I agree with you timtams.Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
How could Josephus include in his writings the hail stones of Revelation 16:21 as heavy stones coming from the Roman catapults in the 70ad siege of Jerusalem if he didn't know about Revelation?This volume contained a brave but lonely attempt to introduce the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation to English soil. Hammond laid great stress on the opening words of the Apocalypse in which the book is said to contain 'things which must shortly come to pass.' .. But those who argued for the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation.. were playing to empty galleries, until at least the fourth decade of the nineteenth century. Their views were anything but popular and those who followed them could soon find themselves branded with the infamous mark of the papal beast. - Daniel Mace
Revelation 16:21 "..great HAIL fell on men as a talent weight.." JosephusRevelation 6:6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."
Typical carnal dispensationalist futurist............Oh, your a Baptist, now I understand
John was indeed a Priest under the NC, as were all the Apostles and us that are of the faith of Jesus the Christ....The Jews of today would know that if they would read Revelation......but alas......Well when it happens, I will let you apologize for calling us carnal! But I am used to that from preterists and amillenialists, and non-trib believers!
But you need to show where John was first transported to the temple, then to the Med sea and then to the Euphrates etc.etc. as He saw and wrote!
John was not a levite- do you have info to show otherwise?
LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
nolidad said: ↑
Maybe He was teh ghost of Christmas future then! C'mon be serious!
John was indeed a Priest under the NC, as were all the Apostles and us that are of the faith of Jesus the Christ....The Jews of today would know that if they would read Revelation......but alas......
edit to add: Btw, I apologize for that off the cuff comment "carnal futurists"......
But I also didn't appreciate your reply concerning my post.....
I said nothing about Levites.......As are we- but you put it in a context of being a levite. we both know that! I am sorry you did not see I was making a joke (that is why I added a smiley thingy)
Act 4:36Luk 3:7
Then said he to the multitudes coming forth to be baptised by him,
'Brood of vipers! who did prompt you to flee from the being about wrath?
I said nothing about Levites.......
However, they are only mentioned in a few verses of the NT and only in Luke and John of the Gospels.
Luke 10 concerning a priest, levite and samaritan....
The Levites and Priests met there doom in 70ad as is shown in Revelation 18:
Luk 10:30
and Jesus having taken up the word, said, 'A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and having stripped him and inflicted blows, they went away, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31
'And by a coincidence a certain priest was going down in that way, and having seen him, he passed over on the opposite side;
Luk 10:32
and in like manner also, a Levite, having been about the place, having come and seen, passed over on the opposite side.
Luk 10:33
'But a certain Samaritan, journeying, came along him, and having seen him, he was moved with compassion,
Luk 10:34
and having come near, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, and having lifted him up on his own beast, he brought him to an inn, and was careful of him;
Luk 10:35
and on the morrow, going forth, taking out two denaries, he gave to the innkeeper, and said to him, Be careful of him, and whatever thou mayest spend more, I, in my coming again, will give back to thee.
Jhn 1:19
And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent out of Jerusalem priests and Levites, that they might question him, 'Who art thou?'
Act 4:36
And Joses, who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas -- which is, having been interpreted, Son of Comfort -- a Levite, of Cyprus by birth,
========================================
OC Mosaic Priesthood cursed forever?
Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse<3994> upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings,
and you shall be taken away with it
8 And ye, ye have turned from the way, Ye have caused many to stumble in the law, Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
===============================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........
Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food,...........
For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that,
"as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death. .........
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
================
70ad wall of circumvialtion.....famine.....infantile cannibalism...eating dung and hay......
Hi Little Lamb of Jesus,
One could draw that problematic conclusion only if they synthesize the revelation that John was given by God with past events. However, in doing so they would also have to throw out the prologue in first passage of Revelation altogether. This is because it specifically states "events that must soon take place", meaning these are not "past" events ,
- Prologue - Revelation 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;
Was the Lord's targeted intentional audience, that John was to communicate these events to, really living in Jerusalem? In order to derive that conclusion one would now also have to throw out John's salutation, which highlights the intentional audience; for it is not Jerusalem at all but to the seven churches in Asia to whom He was the elder, having walked with the Lord.
In addition, we are told this prophesy was directed by the Lord to be given by His apostle John specifically to these seven churches, which he goes on to specifically name.
- Salutation - Revelation 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
We might also add this could have taken place on a Sunday. That, however, depends on the interpretation of what John means by stating 'being in the Spirit on the Lord's day'. Are we to take that at base value as the prophecy was literally given on a Sunday as being 'the Lord's day'? The other possibility is to assume that by "the Lord's Day", John was following the eschatological genre of the letter and inferred that he was spiritually transported forward in time and so he could highlight this experiences on the Lord's day - the culmination of time and times. Personally imho I take John's meaning to be the Day of the Lord - Which encompassed His return and 2nd coming.
These churches were all waiting for Jesus' return, as well as we are presently, as Christians in our own generation.
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation
and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus
OC Jerusalem 70AD is the great harlot in Revelation.You appear to hold to a preterist eschatology. That is your choice!
I think because John was very familiar with Herod's temple, he would have probably known the dimension of it since it was a center of pride for the Jewish people. So imo it would not have made sense for John to be given a reed and told to measure the temple. I think that is an indicator that it was not Herod's temple.Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?