JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

Was Josephus a reliable witness to Jerusalem 70ad?

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timtams

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I was referring to the dating of Revelation.
Right, but the principal evidence given for that is usually Irenaeus' quotation, hence the question. But let me back up: what evidence makes you inclined to the later dating?
 
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Berean Tim

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I had .this on another thread but thought it would be appropriate here.

What do others think about Josephus's mention of a statue of Caligula being put the Temple years before the Temple got decimated in 70ad? Could this be the AoD talked about in Matthew and Mark?


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Abomination Desolation

Matthew 24:15
Whenever then, ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>
Luke 21:20

Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops, then be knowing that come nigh the desolating<2050> of Her

A form of #2050 is used for the desolation of the great City in Revelation 18.

Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world..........

It may, therefore, appear absurd to attempt a distinct elucidation of this part of the prophecy ; nevertheless, it ought not to be omitted, that about this time, the emperor Caligula, having ordered his statue to be placed in the temple of Jerusalem, and the Jews having persisted to refuse him, the whole nation were so much alarmed, by the mere apprehension of war, that they neglected even to till their lands !
The storm, however, blew over.


.
Caligula placed a clay alter within the City which the Jews destroyed. After this he ordered a statue to be placed in the Temple.Caligula died before this statue was placed in the Temple. The order was rescinded and the statue was never placed in the Temple. Also, there's only 3.5 years left after the AoD so it couldn't fit with scripture
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JackRT said:
Ummm ---- Revelation was written about AD 95 which places it after Josephus.
Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
That would make for an interesting study......

https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/Dating/Early/index.html
Apocalypse: Early Date Advocates

Henry Cowles : The Book of Revelation | F.W. Farrar : Dating The Book of Revelation | Thomas B. Slater - Dating the Apocalypse to John | Gonzalo Rojas-Flores The Book of Revelation and the First Years of Nero’s Reign
 
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nolidad

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Hello John and thanks for responding.

Then John would be writing about the 1st century destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem after it occurred?
Jesus and Paul had already warned the pre 70ad Jews of the pending destruction of the City and Temple.....And now perhaps the present day Jews can read Revelation and see that Jesus did indeed fulfill all things for them.
IMHO

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 19:44
“and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833 without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.

.

No John did not write about the past destruction of the temple! He wrote about future events!

Revelation 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

One must remember that John wrote this from the isle of Patmos and would not have had much communication with Jerusalem. The Jews would not tell him what was going on and the believers had fled Judea! It was used by Rome as a prison island so John would have had little contact with the outside world.

The ante nicene fathers speak of John being alive during the reign of Domitian which places him at the end of the first century!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

==========================

History of the Destruction of Jerusalem & Josephan Studies Archives

HISTORICAL
SIGNIFICANCE

"During the Middle Ages, Josephus was the most widely read ancient author in Europe.. Josephus' literary influence had no equals, with the sole exception of the Bible."

doj_josephus_01.gif


Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest and Pharisee, was put in command of the national resistance in Galilee at the time of Israel's revolt against Rome. When he was captured at Jotapata; his life was spared upon his prediction to rival Vespasian, that the Roman general would soon become emperor. Upon the fulfillment of this prophecy shortly thereafter, he was commissioned to provide his captors with a history of the Jewish people, although he initially wrote a history of the Roman-Jewish war suited for both a Roman and a Jewish audience. His works, disputed though they may be regarding accuracy, are an indispensable source on the history of Roman Judea.
======================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM



CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===================

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No John did not write about the past destruction of the temple! He wrote about future events!

Revelation 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

One must remember that John wrote this from the isle of Patmos and would not have had much communication with Jerusalem. The Jews would not tell him what was going on and the believers had fled Judea! It was used by Rome as a prison island so John would have had little contact with the outside world.

The ante nicene fathers speak of John being alive during the reign of Domitian which places him at the end of the first century!
Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
The table of showbread was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness. So much OT imagery and so little time.........
====================
The first room, on the East side (right), was called the Holy Place; the priests would enter the Sanctuary via the Entrance Door curtain on the East side (far right); the room contained:

1. gate/first veil/curtain East side Judah Issachar Zebulun
2. the Lampstand South Side Simeon, Gad, Reuben
3. the Golden Incense Altar West side Ephraim, Benjamin, Manasseh
4. the Showbread Table North side Dan, Napthali, Asher

Revelation 1:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind<3694> me a loud Voice, as of a trumpet,
12 Then I turned<1994> to see the Voice that spoke with me.
And having turned<1994> I saw seven golden Lampstands<3087>,
13 and in the midst of the seven Lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the paps with a golden band.

I can vision John standing inside the holy place of a Tabernacle. [John would probably be a Hebrew Jew and perhaps even of a priestly class].
While he is standing there, he hears a Voice BEHIND him.
He TURNS and sees Jesus in midst of lamp-stands. ["turn" can also mean convert]

Symbolically, [this is just my view], John would have been facing the OC Table of Showbread. ..North.
The Altar and inner curtain would have been on his left...West
Then be turns, facing Jesus and the lamp-stands...South
The outer veil/entrance would then be on his left .....East

In essence, John is first facing the Table of OC Show-bread
and when he turns, he sees the NC "Living Bread", Jesus,

John 6:
48 I am the bread of life.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.
If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.
And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”
============================
Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Gate--
The Court--The Brazen Altar--The Laver--
The Tabernacle--The First Veil--The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second VeilThe Mercy Seat and Ark--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.
tabernacle100dpi.gif


 
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nolidad

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Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
The table of showbread was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness. So much OT imagery and so little time.........

Maybe He was teh ghost of Christmas future then! ^_^^_^ C'mon be serious!

I can vision John standing inside the holy place of a Tabernacle. [John would probably be a Hebrew Jew and perhaps even of a priestly class].
While he is standing there, he hears a Voice BEHIND him.
He TURNS and sees Jesus in midst of lamp-stands

John was a fisherman- so no he was not of the priestly class of levites of cohens.

What about teh rest of HIs vision he wrote down in 21 other chapters ? Did they happen in Johns day while He was whooshing around as an ethereal being?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Maybe He was teh ghost of Christmas future then! ^_^^_^ C'mon be serious!
John was a fisherman- so no he was not of the priestly class of levites of cohens.
What about teh rest of HIs vision he wrote down in 21 other chapters ? Did they happen in Johns day while He was whooshing around as an ethereal being?
Typical carnal dispensationalist futurist............Oh, your a Baptist, now I understand ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JackRT said:
Ummm ---- Revelation was written about AD 95 which places it after Josephus.
Some hold that view, yes. I don't think it's well grounded, myself.
I agree with you timtams.

The Early Date of Revelation   |  Study Archive

Date of Composition: Before AD70, After AD70, Composite

Apocalypse: Early Date Advocates

Henry Cowles : The Book of Revelation | F.W. Farrar : Dating The Book of Revelation | Thomas B. Slater - Dating the Apocalypse to John | Gonzalo Rojas-Flores The Book of Revelation and the First Years of Nero’s Reign
=======================
Early Date of Revelation
This volume contained a brave but lonely attempt to introduce the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation to English soil. Hammond laid great stress on the opening words of the Apocalypse in which the book is said to contain 'things which must shortly come to pass.' .. But those who argued for the preterist interpretation of the Book of Revelation.. were playing to empty galleries, until at least the fourth decade of the nineteenth century. Their views were anything but popular and those who followed them could soon find themselves branded with the infamous mark of the papal beast. - Daniel Mace
How could Josephus include in his writings the hail stones of Revelation 16:21 as heavy stones coming from the Roman catapults in the 70ad siege of Jerusalem if he didn't know about Revelation?
[also note the Roman denari in Revelation 6:6 :idea:]
Revelation 6:6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."
Revelation 16:21 "..great HAIL fell on men as a talent weight.." Josephus

History of the Destruction of Jerusalem & Josephan Studies Archives

"During the Middle Ages, Josephus was the most widely read ancient author in Europe.. Josephus' literary influence had no equals, with the sole exception of the Bible."

Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake.
These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5)

John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)
 
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nolidad

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Typical carnal dispensationalist futurist............Oh, your a Baptist, now I understand ;)

Well when it happens, I will let you apologize for calling us carnal! But I am used to that from preterists and amillenialists, and non-trib believers!

But you need to show where John was first transported to the temple, then to the Med sea and then to the Euphrates etc.etc. as He saw and wrote!

John was not a levite- do you have info to show otherwise?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Well when it happens, I will let you apologize for calling us carnal! But I am used to that from preterists and amillenialists, and non-trib believers!
But you need to show where John was first transported to the temple, then to the Med sea and then to the Euphrates etc.etc. as He saw and wrote!

John was not a levite- do you have info to show otherwise?
John was indeed a Priest under the NC, as were all the Apostles and us that are of the faith of Jesus the Christ....The Jews of today would know that if they would read Revelation......but alas......

edit to add: Btw, I apologize for that off the cuff comment "carnal futurists"......

But I also didn't appreciate your reply concerning my post.....
LittleLambofJesus said:
Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
nolidad said:
Maybe He was teh ghost of Christmas future then! ^_^^_^ C'mon be serious!

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Rev 1:6
and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.
Rev 5:10
and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

It is interesting to note that the father of John the Baptist is the only one shown doing service as an OC priest in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple in the NT............

Luke 1:
5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest, by name Zacharias, of the course of Abijah, and his wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elisabeth; 6and they were both righteous before God, going on in all the commands and righteousnesses of the Lord blameless, 7and they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and both were advanced in their days.

8And it came to pass, in his acting as priest, in the order of his course before God, 9according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot was to make perfume, having gone into the sanctuary of the Lord,
10and all the multitude of the people were praying without, at the hour of the perfume.
11And there appeared to him a Messenger of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of the perfume, 12and Zacharias, having seen, was troubled, and fear fell on him; 13and the messenger said unto him, ‘Fear not, Zacharias, for thy supplication was heard, and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear a son to thee, and thou shalt call his name John, 14and there shall be joy to thee, and gladness, and many at his birth shall joy, 15for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother’s womb; 16and many of the sons of Israel he shall turn to the Lord their God,
17and he shall go before Him, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn hearts of fathers unto children, and disobedient ones to the wisdom of righteous ones, to make ready for the Lord, a people prepared.’

18And Zacharias said unto the messenger, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am aged, and my wife is advanced in her days?’
19And the messenger answering said to him, ‘I am Gabriel, who have been standing near before God, and I was sent to speak unto thee, and to proclaim these good news to thee, 20and lo, thou shalt be silent, and not able to speak, till the day that these things shall come to pass, because thou didst not believe my words, that shall be fulfilled in their season.’

21And the people were waiting for Zacharias, and wondering at his tarrying in the sanctuary, 22and having come out, he was not able to speak to them, and they perceived that a vision he had seen in the sanctuary, and he was beckoning to them, and did remain dumb. 23And it came to pass, when the days of his service were fulfilled, he went away to his house,

24and after those days, his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying — 25‘Thus hath the Lord done to me, in days in which He looked upon [me], to take away my reproach among men.’
 
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nolidad

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John was indeed a Priest under the NC, as were all the Apostles and us that are of the faith of Jesus the Christ....The Jews of today would know that if they would read Revelation......but alas......

edit to add: Btw, I apologize for that off the cuff comment "carnal futurists"......

But I also didn't appreciate your reply concerning my post.....

As are we- but you put it in a context of being a levite. we both know that! I am sorry you did not see I was making a joke (that is why I added a smiley thingy)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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As are we- but you put it in a context of being a levite. we both know that! I am sorry you did not see I was making a joke (that is why I added a smiley thingy)
I said nothing about Levites.......

However, they are only mentioned in a few verses of the NT and only in Luke and John of the Gospels.

Luke 10 concerning a priest, levite and samaritan....
The Levites and Priests met there doom in 70ad as is shown in Revelation 18:

Luk 10:30
and Jesus having taken up the word, said, 'A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and having stripped him and inflicted blows, they went away, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31
'And by a coincidence a certain priest was going down in that way, and having seen him, he passed over on the opposite side;
Luk 10:32
and in like manner also, a Levite, having been about the place, having come and seen, passed over on the opposite side.
Luk 10:33
'But a certain Samaritan, journeying, came along him, and having seen him, he was moved with compassion,
Luk 10:34
and having come near, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, and having lifted him up on his own beast, he brought him to an inn, and was careful of him;
Luk 10:35
and on the morrow, going forth, taking out two denaries, he gave to the innkeeper, and said to him, Be careful of him, and whatever thou mayest spend more, I, in my coming again, will give back to thee.

Jhn 1:19
And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent out of Jerusalem priests and Levites, that they might question him, 'Who art thou?'
Luk 3:7
Then said he to the multitudes coming forth to be baptised by him,
'Brood of vipers! who did prompt you to flee from the being about wrath?
Act 4:36
And Joses, who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas -- which is, having been interpreted, Son of Comfort -- a Levite, of Cyprus by birth,
========================================

OC Mosaic Priesthood cursed forever?

Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse<3994> upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings,
and you shall be taken away with it

8 And ye, ye have turned from the way, Ye have caused many to stumble in the law, Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
===============================

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food,...........

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that,
"as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death. .........
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
================
70ad wall of circumvialtion.....famine.....infantile cannibalism...eating dung and hay......
 
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nolidad

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I said nothing about Levites.......

However, they are only mentioned in a few verses of the NT and only in Luke and John of the Gospels.

Luke 10 concerning a priest, levite and samaritan....
The Levites and Priests met there doom in 70ad as is shown in Revelation 18:

Luk 10:30
and Jesus having taken up the word, said, 'A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and having stripped him and inflicted blows, they went away, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31
'And by a coincidence a certain priest was going down in that way, and having seen him, he passed over on the opposite side;
Luk 10:32
and in like manner also, a Levite, having been about the place, having come and seen, passed over on the opposite side.
Luk 10:33
'But a certain Samaritan, journeying, came along him, and having seen him, he was moved with compassion,
Luk 10:34
and having come near, he bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine, and having lifted him up on his own beast, he brought him to an inn, and was careful of him;
Luk 10:35
and on the morrow, going forth, taking out two denaries, he gave to the innkeeper, and said to him, Be careful of him, and whatever thou mayest spend more, I, in my coming again, will give back to thee.

Jhn 1:19
And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent out of Jerusalem priests and Levites, that they might question him, 'Who art thou?'

Act 4:36
And Joses, who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas -- which is, having been interpreted, Son of Comfort -- a Levite, of Cyprus by birth,
========================================

OC Mosaic Priesthood cursed forever?

Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse<3994> upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings,
and you shall be taken away with it

8 And ye, ye have turned from the way, Ye have caused many to stumble in the law, Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
===============================

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food,...........

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that,
"as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death. .........
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
================
70ad wall of circumvialtion.....famine.....infantile cannibalism...eating dung and hay......

You appear to hold to a preterist eschatology. That is your choice!

Show us the beast rising out of teh sea having seven heads and ten horns. Show us the wormwood. Show the mark of the beast. Show the man of sin entering the holy place declaring himself god.

Show where Israel fled and was nourished for 3 1/2 years. Show the bowl and trumpet judgments.
 
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parousia70

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Hi Little Lamb of Jesus,
One could draw that problematic conclusion only if they synthesize the revelation that John was given by God with past events. However, in doing so they would also have to throw out the prologue in first passage of Revelation altogether. This is because it specifically states "events that must soon take place", meaning these are not "past" events ,

  • Prologue - Revelation 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;

If you are of the opinion these "future events" John as writing about did not take place "Shortly" after he was given the vision becasue the time was not "at Hand", would not you have to "throw out the prologue altogether" as well?

Was the Lord's targeted intentional audience, that John was to communicate these events to, really living in Jerusalem? In order to derive that conclusion one would now also have to throw out John's salutation, which highlights the intentional audience; for it is not Jerusalem at all but to the seven churches in Asia to whom He was the elder, having walked with the Lord.
  • Salutation - Revelation 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
In addition, we are told this prophesy was directed by the Lord to be given by His apostle John specifically to these seven churches, which he goes on to specifically name.

If the "Targeted Intentional Audience" were those 7, 1st century Churches in Asia Minor, then again, to ascribe fulfillment of those promises given to some other peoples, thousands of years removed, likewise asserts they were not the "targeted intentional Audience" after all.

Was our Lord merely issuing empty promises? Empty Threats? I don't believe so.

Jesus PROMISED the first century peoples at Sardis that His Thief's Coming would befall them in their Day. (Revelation 3:3) Was He Lying or just Mistaken? I say Neither. I say He Fulfilled that promise to them, back then, for He cannot Lie.


We might also add this could have taken place on a Sunday. That, however, depends on the interpretation of what John means by stating 'being in the Spirit on the Lord's day'. Are we to take that at base value as the prophecy was literally given on a Sunday as being 'the Lord's day'? The other possibility is to assume that by "the Lord's Day", John was following the eschatological genre of the letter and inferred that he was spiritually transported forward in time and so he could highlight this experiences on the Lord's day - the culmination of time and times. Personally imho I take John's meaning to be the Day of the Lord - Which encompassed His return and 2nd coming.

I too take John's meaning to be the Day of the Lord.
All these phrases are used interchangeably in scripture to mean the same thing:
The Wrath of the Lord = The Lord's Wrath
The Mercy of the Lord = The Lord's Mercy
The Vengeance of the Lord = The Lord's Vengeance
AND
The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day.


These churches were all waiting for Jesus' return, as well as we are presently, as Christians in our own generation.

Which, again would require you to excise the letters to the seven Churches from your Bible as meaningless, false promises that Jesus failed to fulfill to those 1st century Congregations.

Each of those Churches had unique, contemporary situations that were addressed by Christ's coming to them:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Revelation 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Revelation 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Revelation 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Revelation 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Revelation 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.


I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation
and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus

Another important time indicator, as St John is seen here heralding the then present Arrival of "the Tribulation of Jesus Christ" in His day.

We can see from scripture that Christ's coming affected various then-contemporary situations. We can read of specific situations in Rev 2-3 and elsewhere.

Let's look at Thessalonica for a moment. Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thess 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You appear to hold to a preterist eschatology. That is your choice!
OC Jerusalem 70AD is the great harlot in Revelation.
Just work backwards from there.

Revelation 17:
1 And came one out of the seven Messengers, those having the seven vials/bowls<5357>, and He speaks with me, saying
"come-hither!<1204> I shall be showing to thee the judgment of the great harlot <4204> sitting upon many waters,
3 And He carried me away to a wilderness in Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting upon a scarlet/crimson<2847> Beast, replete<1073> of names of blasphemy/evil-speaking, having seven Heads and ten Horns.

Ezekiel identifies the "Woman/Harlot/Great City" ;)
[please visit my Alluisions in Reve from OT thread]

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament


Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy. [Revelation 17:3]


Revelation 17:3
and he carried me away to a wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of evil-speaking, having seven heads and ten horns, [Ezekiel 8:3]

Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
=================================

15 And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.
17 For the GOD gives<1325> into Their hearts to do<4160> the mind<1106> of Him, and to do One mind

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

..............................Revelation 19

Hallelujah and Its Hebrew Meaning - Israel Study Center
“Hallelu” (הללו) and “Yah” (יה).


1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
3 And a second time they have declared<4483> "HalleluYah! and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages!"
4 And fall the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they worship to the GOD the One sitting upon the Throne, saying, "Amen! HalleluYah!"
5 And a Voice came out from the Throne saying: "Be ye praising to the GOD of us, all ye bond-servants of Him, and those fearing Him, the small and the great".
6 And I hear as sound of a throng, much, and as a sound of waters, many, and as sound of thunders, strong saying: "HalleluYah! that reigns Lord the God *of-us, the Almighty".
======================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
..."hearing battles
and tidings of battles"

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
TRACKING THE FIRST JEWISH REVOLT FROM A
MILITARY POINT OF VIEW

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
=================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. --
Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived

 
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Douggg

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Sounds like John is visioning himself as either in a Tabernacle/Sanctuary. Since he is in the Spirit, who's to say he isn't in the Sanctuary of Herod's Temple, as he appears to be shown in a Sanctuary?
I think because John was very familiar with Herod's temple, he would have probably known the dimension of it since it was a center of pride for the Jewish people. So imo it would not have made sense for John to be given a reed and told to measure the temple. I think that is an indicator that it was not Herod's temple.
 
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