Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

[Dale]

For those not familiar with the writings of Ellen White, here is what Original Happy Camper is talking about when he says that Jesus Christ is actively working and performing some function in the heavenly Tablernacle. According to Ellen White, Jesus went in and took up this task in 1844. This refers to EW's belief that the end of the world was near, since the activity of Jesus Christ in the Tabernacle was supposed to take place shortly before the Second Coming and Final Judgment. If we are to believe EW, Jesus has been working on this for 175 years and we are still waiting for the Second Coming and Final Judgment.


Ellen White:

"The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament.” Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that He was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners."



Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Book Five: The Great Controversy
Chapter 25: God's Law Immutable
Location 45073-79

 

[Dale]

[QUOTE="Daniel Marsh, post: 7419372
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

That is all fine and good.

But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exodus 25
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Jesus showed Moses the tabernacle in Heaven.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The reward is eternal life or destruction. Our Judge, Jesus Christ, makes the decision which reward we will receive.

I can share more about how Jesus in the Heavenly sanctuary is paralleling the High priest's duties in the earth sanctuary if you are interested.

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?[/QUOTE]


Original Happy Camper in post #45:
<< But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat. >>



Paul doesn't talk about Jesus doing the work of a sacrificial priest in a heavenly tabernacle. When Paul does talk about a heavenly Temple, he doesn't talk about a portable Tabernacle, a tent made to be carried in the desert. Instead, he talks about a heavenly building of stone. Jesus is the "chief cornerstone." Instead of Jesus performing some mysterious service of propitiation that we cannot see, Paul talks about believers being joined together in a stone temple infused by the Holy Spirit.



19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
--Ephesians 2: 19-22 NIV

 

[klutedavid]

But the Christians kept the 7th day Sabbath at first. When Christians began to be confused with Jews is when the change took place---they did not want to be associated with the Jews and adopted Sunday instead of the 7th day Sabbath. It is why the Christians began distancing themselves from Jews, it was the easiest thing to do.

Sabbath keepers throughout history

• 
  PAUL
  "And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there's now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???
  
  PAUL AND THE GENTILES
  "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.
  
  Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."
  
  And get this: The Bible does not say it is the "old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away," but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it "the next Sabbath."
  
  JOHN
  "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev.1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
  The term "Lord's day" in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord's day is the day that God calls "My holy day" and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.
  
  JOSEPHUS
  "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.
  
  PHILO
  Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99
  
  So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.
  
  The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D.

Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Second Century A.D.

• 
  -----------------------------------------------
  EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
  "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).
  
  EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
  "...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14
  
  EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
  "The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
  
  EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
  "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).
  
  EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
  "It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77
  
  Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.
  
  "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
  
  Sunday observance as a way to distance themselves from the Jews was seen as early as AD 110:
  
  If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., the Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death … (Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians 9)
  
  That in no way has anything to do with what the bible says is the Sabbath. I have been waiting for over 35 years for that one verse that says: God has changed His 7th day Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day of the week,. Any argument about it would be over.
  What God has written with His own hand on stone--only He can change.

Your missing the point altogether.

The Roman world did not honor a Sabbath day during the early fourth century when Constantine declared Sunday as a rest day for the Roman empire.

The Roman world in the preceding centuries did not have a day of rest until Constantine's legislation in 321 AD.

 

[klutedavid]

You quoted the following in your previous post.

EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

From research that I have done in the past; some churches honored both the Sabbath and Sunday. They would read the law on the Sabbath day and meet on Sunday to break the bread.

What must be emphasized here very strongly is that Christians in the Roman Empire. Could not have honored the Sabbath as a day of rest and rested also on a Sunday. Because it was not until the fourth century that Constantine even allowed Romans to rest on a Sunday.

It is impossible to even to attempt to argue for a Sabbath rest day in the Roman Empire. Because Constantine Himself is the proof that no weekly rest day existed before the fourth century.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is all fine and good.

But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exodus 25
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Jesus showed Moses the tabernacle in Heaven.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The reward is eternal life or destruction. Our Judge, Jesus Christ, makes the decision which reward we will receive.

I can share more about how Jesus in the Heavenly sanctuary is paralleling the High priest's duties in the earth sanctuary if you are interested.

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Original Happy Camper in post #45:

<< But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat. >>


Original Happy Camper, you say that Jesus is doing something in the sanctuary, the Heavenly Tabernacle, today. SDA doctrine says that Jesus is performing some cleansing service in the Tabernacle. Here is what the New Testament says that Jesus is doing today.


19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mark 16:19 RSV

66 When day came, the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes; and they led him away to their council, and they said, 67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe; 68 and if I ask you, you will not answer. 69 But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22: 66-69 RSV

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3: 1 RSV

He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ...
Hebrews 1:3 RSV

But when Christhad offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
Hebrews 10: 12-13 RSV

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12: 1-2 RSV


According to Hebrews chapter Ten, Jesus isn't performing some necessary service in a Heavenly Tabernacle. Instead, He is waiting for the Second Coming and the Judgment, when His enemies will be "made a stool."[/QUOTE]

That is all fine and good.

But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exodus 25
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Jesus showed Moses the tabernacle in Heaven.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The reward is eternal life or destruction. Our Judge, Jesus Christ, makes the decision which reward we will receive.

I can share more about how Jesus in the Heavenly sanctuary is paralleling the High priest's duties in the earth sanctuary if you are interested.

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

For those not familiar with the writings of Ellen White, here is what Original Happy Camper is talking about when he says that Jesus Christ is actively working and performing some function in the heavenly Tablernacle. According to Ellen White, Jesus went in and took up this task in 1844. This refers to EW's belief that the end of the world was near, since the activity of Jesus Christ in the Tabernacle was supposed to take place shortly before the Second Coming and Final Judgment. If we are to believe EW, Jesus has been working on this for 175 years and we are still waiting for the Second Coming and Final Judgment.


Ellen White:

"The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament.” Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that He was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners."



Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Book Five: The Great Controversy
Chapter 25: God's Law Immutable
Location 45073-79[/QUOTE]


What is the work of the High Priest? Jesus is our High Priest now. When Jesus returns, He returns for the saved only---that means Jesus will have already made the decision as to who is saved and who is lost. He doesn't come back for everyone and then there is a judgement as to who is going to hell and who isn't. He comes only for the saved. The living wicked are destroyed at His 2nd coming and do not live again until after the 1000 years. Then they are resurrected unto their judgement--to determine their punishment. When Jesus work as our High Priest is ended He will say so.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

At that point, everyone will have made their final decision, that is why Jesus says:

Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

That there is some sort of record that is kept by God can not be disputed:

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Jesus is doing something as our High Priest, and when He is done, He will say so and He will return. The record of our lives are kept, not because God needs them, but because everyone can see why
each individual has gotten the sentence they have. No one will have any doubts that God is just.

And as you said---the ark of the testimony is still in the original heavenly sanctuary---which is the throne of God. And that testimony contains the law of God--the 10 commandments, as did the earthly sanctuary. And those commandments include the 4th.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your missing the point altogether.

The Roman world did not honor a Sabbath day during the early fourth century when Constantine declared Sunday as a rest day for the Roman empire.

The Roman world in the preceding centuries did not have a day of rest until Constantine's legislation in 321 AD.

No---you are missing the point---Constantine was now a Christian, and he was making decisions for Christians. Doesn't matter that the Roman world did not honor a day of rest---they had all manner of feast days and worship of the Sun was one of them. Christians did have a day of rest. Constantine also gathered the first of the Christian gatherings to institute a Christian creed---the Nicene creed---doesn't matter that the Roman world did not have a creed---he was speaking for the Christian world.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Attacking my sense of fairness is not a good way to proceed. I have changed my opinions on many occasions. I've read enough Ellen White to know that she misses the point both in the OT and the NT. She misquotes the beliefs of others and she is not fair to those she disagrees with.

Appeal to pity (I hope my"attacks" didn't leave you truly injured in any way) and an ambiguous statement regarding the (still unquantified) extent of your knowledge of Mrs. White's work, followed by another couple of vague charges. Fair enough "way to proceed," I suppose.

Will you at least offer a respectable estimate of the true level of your knowledgeability on Mrs. White's writings or not? Or is this something you'd rather conceal? Have you ever read a complete volume of her work? Even so much as a small one, such as Steps To Christ?

You may, of course, acknowledge in the negative by avoiding plain answers to these direct questions.

Since the Investigative Judgment is a well known belief of the SDA, you seem to arguing that your own church has exaggerated its importance.

My church has both exaggerated and subdued the teaching of the sanctuary doctrine over the last 146 years. I'm under no illusion that The Lord has finally persuaded a church to cease its disobedient and stiffnecked ways. And I've made my position on the validity of the pre-advent judgment quite clear by now, I believe.

According to the SDA, one of the Popes changed the day of worship to Sunday around 350 AD. (Which did not happen.)

Don't you even care enough to look up which "one of the Popes" we're talking about here?

What exactly constitutes "the SDA?" Please give an official citation of the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church to substantiate the claim.

Even self-supporting Adventist ministries, the loyal but autonomous types, do not make this claim. The earliest record of the change was by civil decree and under the authority of the converted Roman emperor Constantine, which led to its recognition and ratification in subsequent church councils.

There has been much made of the fact that the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), which is often cited as the first to mention the Sunday/Sabbath tension, is geographically separated from Rome by 1000 miles, unless other topics are under discussion, such as the work done on the canonization of Scripture. Double-standard to the rescue!

How The Sabbath Was Changed | Sabbath Truth

Think before you dismiss them as "Catholics."

Protestantism or "Catholic-bashing," as it is characterized in modern, pluralistic, ecumenically-driven Christendom, is not an Adventist invention, by the way.

Antichrist - Wikipedia

 

[klutedavid]

No---you are missing the point---Constantine was now a Christian, and he was making decisions for Christians. Doesn't matter that the Roman world did not honor a day of rest---they had all manner of feast days and worship of the Sun was one of them. Christians did have a day of rest. Constantine also gathered the first of the Christian gatherings to institute a Christian creed---the Nicene creed---doesn't matter that the Roman world did not have a creed---he was speaking for the Christian world.

There was no official day of rest before Constantine for a Sabbath day or the Lord's day.

Israel had a national day of rest on the Sabbath day but not the Roman Empire. That is the significance of Constantine's declaration of a rest day on Sunday!

There is another critical point to be mentioned.

If you read Constantine's declaration carefully you will notice that farmers could work on Sunday. In Israel, farmers were prohibited from working on the Sabbath day.

There is a distinct difference between a day of rest in any other country and a Sabbath day in Israel. If you lived in Israel and you worked on the Sabbath you would be stoned to death.

This is not the case in the Roman Empire, anyone could work on Sunday with no penalty applied.

On Sunday in the Roman Empire; you could cook, wash your clothes, mow the law, e.t.c. The whole concept of a Sabbath rest was absent in Constantine's declaration. There was no movement of a Sabbath day to a Sunday anywhere in Constantine's decree.

 

[mmksparbud]

There was no official day of rest before Constantine for a Sabbath day or the Lord's day.

Israel had a national day of rest on the Sabbath day but not the Roman Empire. That is the significance of Constantine's declaration of a rest day on Sunday!

There is another critical point to be mentioned.

If you read Constantine's declaration carefully you will notice that farmers could work on Sunday. In Israel, farmers were prohibited from working on the Sabbath day.

There is a distinct difference between a day of rest in any other country and a Sabbath day in Israel. If you lived in Israel and you worked on the Sabbath you would be stoned to death.

This is not the case in the Roman Empire, anyone could work on Sunday with no penalty applied.

On Sunday in the Roman Empire; you could cook, wash your clothes, mow the law, e.t.c. The whole concept of a Sabbath rest was absent in Constantine's declaration. There was no movement of a Sabbath day to a Sunday anywhere in Constantine's decree.

Apparently you are either ignoring or not reading what is posted as you keep repeating something that has no importance. Again, who cares what the Roman world had or didn't have about a rest day? The discussion is about Christians, not what the pagans had. Constantine was making a civil declaration about a religious obligation as a Christian himself. And you seem to ignore all the quotes about Sabbath keeping throughout history. If you wish to just keep repeating yourself, go right ahead. I have no wish to keep reading the same non-applicable to the discussion statements.

 

[D.A. Wright]

There was no official day of rest before Constantine for a Sabbath day or the Lord's day.

Israel had a national day of rest on the Sabbath day but not the Roman Empire. That is the significance of Constantine's declaration of a rest day on Sunday!

There is another critical point to be mentioned.

If you read Constantine's declaration carefully you will notice that farmers could work on Sunday. In Israel, farmers were prohibited from working on the Sabbath day.

There is a distinct difference between a day of rest in any other country and a Sabbath day in Israel. If you lived in Israel and you worked on the Sabbath you would be stoned to death.

This is not the case in the Roman Empire, anyone could work on Sunday with no penalty applied.

On Sunday in the Roman Empire; you could cook, wash your clothes, mow the law, e.t.c. The whole concept of a Sabbath rest was absent in Constantine's declaration. There was no movement of a Sabbath day to a Sunday anywhere in Constantine's decree.

If I were the devil, I would not, in one fell swoop, try to replace the Sabbath wholesale and overnight with another day, either.

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11)

 

[klutedavid]

Apparently you are either ignoring or not reading what is posted as you keep repeating something that has no importance. Again, who cares what the Roman world had or didn't have about a rest day? The discussion is about Christians, not what the pagans had. Constantine was making a civil declaration about a religious obligation as a Christian himself. And you seem to ignore all the quotes about Sabbath keeping throughout history. If you wish to just keep repeating yourself, go right ahead. I have no wish to keep reading the same non-applicable to the discussion statements.

A Roman Christian could not observe a day of rest on a Saturday because they worked seven says a week, before that declaration by Constantine in 321 AD.

Early Christian literature in the first few centuries that comment on Sabbath days. Are not talking about Romans resting on Saturday because the Roman world, did not have a day of rest in any week of the year.

You may have misunderstood the early church authors, when they mention Sabbath days. They are referring to a holy day but not a day of rest, same goes for the first day in the Roman Empire.

Constantine allowed Christians to go to church on Sunday with His declaration. Before Constantine's declaration Christians rose early in the morning before work to break the bread.

There were certainly no Romans taking Saturday off within the Roman Empire before 321 AD.

I'm not ignoring the Sabbath dialogue during history, just attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

 

[klutedavid]

If I were the devil, I would not, in one fell swoop, try to replace the Sabbath wholesale and overnight with another day, either.

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11)

Who actually changed the Sabbath day is not verifiable from Christian history. That both days were honored by some churches is beyond question in the first few centuries.

But honoring a Sabbath and resting on the Sabbath in the ancient Roman world, are two completely different concepts.

One was possible and the other was not possible. No Roman sat around on a day off on Saturday or a Sunday before Constantine except the citizens in Israel.

 

[mmksparbud]

A Roman Christian could not observe a day of rest on a Saturday because they worked seven says a week, before that declaration by Constantine in 321 AD.

Early Christian literature in the first few centuries that comment on Sabbath days. Are not talking about Romans resting on Saturday because the Roman world, did not have a day of rest in any week of the year.

You may have misunderstood the early church authors, when they mention Sabbath days. They are referring to a holy day but not a day of rest, same goes for the first day in the Roman Empire.

Constantine allowed Christians to go to church on Sunday with His declaration. Before Constantine's declaration Christians rose early in the morning before work to break the bread.

There were certainly no Romans taking Saturday off within the Roman Empire before 321 AD.

I'm not ignoring the Sabbath dialogue during history, just attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

A Roman Christian would have kept the Sabbath, as was shown to you and as the disciples themselves did. And I am very aware of the verse about sabbath days--they refer to any of the Jewish feast days---also called sabbaths. However, there is, and has been, only one THE SABBATH DAY. And only one day that God ever claims as His--which is the 7th day. And only one day which is written down by the hand of God Himself on stone and kept in the ark--both earthly and heavenly--which points directly to God as the Creator. I, also, am merely attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

 

[klutedavid]

If I were the devil, I would not, in one fell swoop, try to replace the Sabbath wholesale and overnight with another day, either.

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11)

Constantine was not a pope.

The claim is that a Catholic pope changed the day.

We need the evidence.

 

[klutedavid]

A Roman Christian would have kept the Sabbath, as was shown to you and as the disciples themselves did. And I am very aware of the verse about sabbath days--they refer to any of the Jewish feast days---also called sabbaths. However, there is, and has been, only one THE SABBATH DAY. And only one day that God ever claims as His--which is the 7th day. And only one day which is written down by the hand of God Himself on stone and kept in the ark--both earthly and heavenly--which points directly to God as the Creator. I, also, am merely attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

This is simply not true.

There was no day of rest in the Roman Empire for a Christian before Constantine. You misunderstand what Constantine's declaration is doing, Constantine is saying Christians can go to church during the day on Sunday!

 

[D.A. Wright]

Apparently you are either ignoring or not reading what is posted as you keep repeating something that has no importance. Again, who cares what the Roman world had or didn't have about a rest day? The discussion is about Christians, not what the pagans had. Constantine was making a civil declaration about a religious obligation as a Christian himself. And you seem to ignore all the quotes about Sabbath keeping throughout history. If you wish to just keep repeating yourself, go right ahead. I have no wish to keep reading the same non-applicable to the discussion statements.

Logical fallacy is widely popular within the argument against the perpetuity of the fourth commandment. To what else does one really have to resort? It's easy enough to justify a faith handed down from family or recommended by friends or friendly people, but once it is challenged on its own merits, an adult mind has two options: Follow logic and reason or cling to tradition and, if the logic becomes too bothersome, resort to self-deceit. It's mostly subconscious and very much deserving of patience and prayer.

 

[klutedavid]

A Roman Christian would have kept the Sabbath, as was shown to you and as the disciples themselves did.

Impossible during the centuries before Constantine for any Roman citizen. There was no day of rest before Constantine.

And I am very aware of the verse about sabbath days--they refer to any of the Jewish feast days---also called sabbaths. However, there is, and has been, only one THE SABBATH DAY. And only one day that God ever claims as His--which is the 7th day. And only one day which is written down by the hand of God Himself on stone and kept in the ark--both earthly and heavenly--which points directly to God as the Creator. I, also, am merely attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

That is what you have been taught and that is one of the available interpretations.

You understand that the Protestants rejected the seven letters written by Ignatius don't you.
These days the majority of scholars do not reject the letters of Ignatius anymore, they are now valid letters.

Letter to the Magnesians, chapter nine.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death.

 

[klutedavid]

Logical fallacy is widely popular within the argument against the perpetuity of the fourth commandment. To what else does one really have to resort? It's easy enough to justify a faith handed down from family or recommended by friends or friendly people, but once it is challenged on its own merits, an adult mind has two options: Follow logic and reason or cling to tradition and, if the logic becomes too bothersome, resort to self-deceit. It's mostly subconscious and very much deserving of patience and prayer.

Check your historical sources and the fallacy will evaporate.

 

[mmksparbud]

Constantine was not a pope.

The claim is that a Catholic pope changed the day.

We need the evidence.

I already stated Constantine was never a pope! The statement made is that it has been changed and I really do not care who they were or what their title was---it was not changed by God.

At the Catholic counsel of Laodicea is also where the Sunday observance was determined. It was held in 364
Canon 29

“Christians must not judaize by resting on the [Jewish] Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema (excommunicated) from Christ.
Canon 37
It is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them.

Canon 38
It is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.

They were trying to distance themselves as far as possible away from the Jews. They had to make this proclamation for the Christians were keeping the Sabbath.
You can look it up yourself, no secret.

 

[mmksparbud]

Impossible during the centuries before Constantine for any Roman citizen. There was no day of rest before Constantine.

That is what you have been taught and that is one of the available interpretations.

You understand that the Protestants rejected the seven letters written by Ignatius don't you.
These days the majority of scholars do not reject the letters of Ignatius anymore, they are now valid letters.

Letter to the Magnesians, chapter nine.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death.

You quote that there are Christians who "no longer keep the Sabbath" while at the same time saying that no Christian kept that Sabbath---I'm getting whiplash here! You see it, but refuse to see it! Aren't you getting dizzy?