What are the ethics of this?

[NoelJack]

Recently my husband injured himself and had to go to the ER. He has insurance through his work so we thought it would be covered minus deductible plus Co pay. However, due to this being a freestanding ER and it being out of network, legally they are entitled to balance bill us and we have to pay the difference.
It turns out we have to pay about $6k that was not covered by insurance. We had exhausted all our appeals and by law we owe this money. The thing is we have the money since my hubby has been saving up to buy a jeep. This would knock him back to about $4k towards his dream car if he paid the bill.
His plan is to go out and plunk the entire amount he saved (about 10k) as his down payment on the Jeep and just let 6k we owe go into collections. So basically he is planning on getting his car loan before stiffing the ER so he can still get a good rate on the car loan.
This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?

 

[Anthony2019]

My response would be that I agree with you, it doesn't sound very ethical. However, I am not in a position to judge. I have never been in a situation where I have had to pay fees or sort out medical bills and insurance for any visit I have made to A&E. I cannot imagine the stress of worrying about paying for a hospital to look after you when you are seriously sick or injured.

 

[Albion]

Hmm. You are not denying the debt, so it seems like just a matter of when you are going to pay. Many clients of hospitals take forever and it's time-consuming for them merely to work through all the coordination of benefits procedures and insurers, so I don't know if you have a moral obligation to pay bills in a certain order.

 

[Phil W]

Recently my husband injured himself and had to go to the ER. He has insurance through his work so we thought it would be covered minus deductible plus Co pay. However, due to this being a freestanding ER and it being out of network, legally they are entitled to balance bill us and we have to pay the difference.
It turns out we have to pay about $6k that was not covered by insurance. We had exhausted all our appeals and by law we owe this money. The thing is we have the money since my hubby has been saving up to buy a jeep. This would knock him back to about $4k towards his dream car if he paid the bill.
His plan is to go out and plunk the entire amount he saved (about 10k) as his down payment on the Jeep and just let 6k we owe go into collections. So basically he is planning on getting his car loan before stiffing the ER so he can still get a good rate on the car loan.
This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?

Pay for the doctor's service first.
Don't destroy your credit rating.
The Jeep will still be there later.
Or go with a smaller down payment.

 

[NoelJack]

Hmm. You are not denying the debt, so it seems like just a matter of when you are going to pay. Many clients of hospitals take forever and it's time-consuming for them merely to work through all the coordination of benefits procedures and insurers, so I don't know if you have a moral obligation to pay bills in a certain order.

This is exactly why my husband is planning on not paying at all. By law a medical debt needs to be 180 days past due before it can be reported so he plans to get his jeep before that. His plan is just to stone wall the collections people. His score is in the 800's so he reasons that even a 100 point hit will still leave him will excellent credit.
My problem worth this is, we can pay but he is choosing not to in order to get himself a nonessential luxury. How should I address this with him?

 

[JustRachel]

Check with your hospital. Ours doesn't announce it, but if you pay in cash there may be a substantial discount. For us it used to be 20%. It's been a while and I have an upcoming bill. I hope they still offer this. I do agree with you. Responsibilities come first always. Toys are down the list.

 

[NoelJack]

Pay for the doctor's service first.
Don't destroy your credit rating.
The Jeep will still be there later.
Or go with a smaller down payment.

Yeah, his plan is to not pay at all. .. his reasoning is that a100 point hit on a score in the 800's would still leave him with a700 something and he just need to let it sit for 7 years.
He says that he would rather enjoy the Jeep now rather than later because in 7 years it would not matter if he paid or not.
This is the attitude I have a problem with.

 

[NoelJack]

Check with your hospital. Ours doesn't announce it, but if you pay in cash there may be a substantial discount. For us it used to be 20%. It's been a while and I have an upcoming bill. I hope they still offer this.

They did offer 20% off my husband says why pay 80% when he can pay 0 percent.

 

[Albion]

But he will have to pay up at some time, won't he? --assuming that he doesn't declare bankruptcy, that is.

If it is bankruptcy, that could be considered unethical, but I would recommend getting a lot of professional advice if that is the plan.

 

[JustRachel]

I wish I could help you on how to discuss this with your husband. I believe he is totally wrong.

 

[NoelJack]

But he will have to pay up at some time, won't he? Assuming that he doesn't declare bankruptcy, that is.

Not in the states... in the states a debt can be reported on a credit report for 7 to 10 years, in ours it is 7. So after 7 years you still owe the debt, but there is little a creditor can do to collect.

 

[NoelJack]

I wish I could help you on how to discuss this with your husband. I believe he is totally wrong.

Yeah, on top of the fact that we have the money to pay right now, my husband is negotiating a payment plan with them. He is doing it solely to buy more time.
His intention is to drag out the payment plan negotiations for a couple months, then not make any payments so he will have 6 months from the day the first payment becomes past due, which will give him almost a year to use his credit before it takes a ding.

 

[Endeavourer]

For an amount that size it is most likely the hospital would file suit.

Then you will have to pay interest, their filing costs, damage your credit score, have a debt collection lawsuit on your record (forever google-able) and still pay the full $6k.

You will likely lose in court if you fight the lawsuit.

You are much better to negotiate the cost of the services down in exchange for paying cash.

 

[JustRachel]

Is your husband a Christian?

 

[Endeavourer]

before it takes a ding.

His credit will not just take a ding; he will be sued and still have to pay.

Edited to add: ....and best to do this before it is referred to a collection agency. They are paid based on what they recover and they are ruthless.

 

[NoelJack]

Is your husband a Christian?

He has a lot of resentment towards Christians due to some issues in the past (both actual and perceived ) so I am extra careful when it comes to requesting he do the right thing.

 

[NoelJack]

His credit will not just take a ding; he will be sued and still have to pay.

Edited to add: ....and best to do this before it is referred to a collection agency. They are paid based on what they recover and they are ruthless.

I don't think you are aware that in the states a judgement doesn't equate to collections. So civil judgements fall off after 7 years too. It is almost like this country the are so many protections that are easily abused. I honestly believe that this is one of the reasons that morality is at an all time low.

 

[Endeavourer]

I don't think you are aware that in the states a judgement doesn't equate to collections. So civil judgements fall off after 7 years too. It is almost like this country the are so many protections that are easily abused. I honestly believe that this is one of the reasons that morality is at an all time low.

So you are planning to be sued, lose a lawsuit, have a judgement entered against you (likely for an amount larger than the $6k) and still not pay?

Regardless of what your credit score is afterwards, you won't be approved for any more loans or debt with an outstanding judgement on your credit report. You are planning to sit tight for 7 years without needing any credit activity at all?

 

[NoelJack]

So you are planning to be sued, lose a lawsuit, have a judgement entered against you (likely for an amount larger than the $6k) and still not pay?

Regardless of what your credit score is afterwards, you won't be approved for any more loans or debt with an outstanding judgement on your credit report. You are planning to sit tight for 7 years without needing any credit activity at all?

That's not my plan. I think this plan is highly unethical and amounts to gaming the system. My husband wants to do this so he can get a new jeep instead of doing what's right. I just wish I knew how to convince him of the moral issues associated with this.

 

[Endeavourer]

He is willing to face all of this?


What Happens If You Don't Pay a Court Judgement?

If a court judgment goes unpaid, the debtor has the right to initiate collection proceedings, says Lawyers.com. The debtor can start the proceedings after 30 days have passed with no payment.

Once a creditor is successful in obtaining a judgment against a debtor, the creditor can take steps to garnish wages or seize assets, reports Credit.com. A judgment also allows the creditor to take other measures to collect a debt, such as wage garnishment, explains Lawyers.com. Creditors also have the right to ask banks to seize the debtor's bank account, notes Nolo. Any measures taken by a creditor to collect a debt on a judgment must conform to mandated consumer protection laws.

If a creditor is seeking collection through wage garnishment, the court orders the garnishment and this process is continued until the debt is paid, states Lawyers.com. There are limits to the amount withheld from wages. In instances when a large amount of money is owed, certain property can be seized. This includes real estate and vehicles. It's also possible that those who owe judgments and fail to pay risk suspension of their drivers licenses. In some states professional licenses can be suspended. A debtor may consider setting up a payment plan to streamline the payment process, notes Lawyers.com.

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/happens-don-t-pay-court-judgement-e826ac7dafed89d4