The Two Witnesses

[swordsman1]

Which "mainstream church" are you referring to? Not all churches claim gifts have ceased.

The universal church up until the 2 witnesses were to be given their powers (if they are 2 literal people). If there would already be people around with the gift of miracles God would not have to specifically raise up 2 people with such powers.

 

[devin553344]

The universal church up until the 2 witnesses were to be given their powers (if they are 2 literal people). If there would already be people around with the gift of miracles God would not have to specifically raise up 2 people with such powers.

I quoted scripture and provided historical record of gifts. Also I don't follow your logic in reference to the two witnesses. I don't see how two witnesses stops all other gifts. Not to mention the two witnesses gifts are destroyer based.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If there would already be people around with the gift of miracles God would not have to specifically raise up 2 people with such powers.

The apostles were never recorded as having done those things, yet the gifts had not ceased in their time.

 

[Tree of Life]

Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

The two witnesses are not two literal figures. Together they represent the church.

 

[swordsman1]

I quoted scripture and provided historical record of gifts.

Ah, I see you added them to your post after I replied.

John 14:11-12

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Do you think that verse means that everyone who believes in Jesus will perform greater miracles than Jesus?

The gift of miracles was a gift that not every Christians had (1 Cor 12:30). Yet this verse in John 14 applies to all believers. Can every believer walk on water, turn water into wine, feed 5000 from five loaves and two fish, raise the dead etc? Let alone greater miracles than these. So ‘works’ here cannot be miracles. More likely it is the propagation of the gospel. Eg Peter converting 3000 in one day. That is the consensus view among commentators.

There is a good article on belief in Miracles and how the gifts have not ceased, they give historic record:Do Today's Christians Believe in Miracles?

Sure there is plenty of hearsay around about Christians raising people from the dead, mainly from the charismatic showmen or from Catholics wanting their favorite churchmen to be declared saints (who cannot be canonized unless they have performed a miracle). But is there any hard evidence of such events? That's not to say God cannot perform such miracles if he wanted to.

Also I don't follow your logic in reference to the two witnesses. I don't see how two witnesses stops all other gifts. Not to mention the two witnesses gifts are destroyer based.

The point is the 2 Witnesses is not proof of that the gift of miracles is present in the church today. The most it shows (if you believe it is literal) is that God would raise up 2 people with such powers in the future.

 

[Ronald]

Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

Spiritual gifts have not ceased. Prophetic revelation as we see in Revelation ceased. Apostleship ceased. BUT signs and wonders, healings, personal prophetic revelations, word of knowledge, tongues are all necessary for growth.
We don't see people being raised from the dead as Jesus and Paul did, but that was GOD demonstrating His power then. People always seek the signs and wonders, they want to see miracles. But then faith wouldn't be needed as much, it would cheapened when people depended on seeing and experiencing a miracle to believe, likened to a Carnival act.
There are miracles and when necessary, God works through chosen gifted people for his purpose.
How many sermons have you heard where it seemed designed specifically for you? I had a pastor who had the gift of knowledge, prophecy and tongues. He could speak to and know that there was someone in the audience with a specific problem and minister to them directly. He didn't know them or who they were, but God gave that person a special message. That is a spiritual gift. Evangelism is a GIFT (Eph. 4:11).
As for 1 :Cor. 12, the church is and mist be equipped with God's power to fulfill his plan - peiple just don't always recognize it as such and may pass it off as something else.
Discernment of spirits - yes
Word of wisdom - yes
Word of knowledge - yes
Increased faith - yes
Gifts of healing - yes
Miracles - yes
Tongues - yes
Interpretation of tongues - yes

Many of us are given these gifts not as an everyday practice but at certain times in our lives when we need them.
Did you ever sense an evil person and just know? Did you ever give someone a word of wisdom right at the moment they needed it and it seemed to have come out of nowhere? Some people have this warmth, healing words or a touch that comforts us at the right moment? God is working through.

Or maybe you can tell me how He works through us without giving anyone His powers???

But of course the main question is what about the TWO WITNESSES? Well, they will come during the Great Tribulation period. They witness to the Jews for 1260 days then the Antichrist kills them, they lie in the street dead for 3 days and then rise from the dead. This didnt happen in history. MOSES AND ELIJAH showed up on the Mount of Transfiguration, but only for a moment.
Patience. According to Rom. 11, tje Jews ( a remnant of the 15 million) will rexive Christ during this time. Remember ebery eye will see him - and they will mourn.

 

[devin553344]

Ah, I see you added them to your post after I replied.



Do you think that verse means that everyone who believes in Jesus will perform greater miracles than Jesus?

The gift of miracles was a gift that not every Christians had (1 Cor 12:30). Yet this verse in John 14 applies to all believers. Can every believer walk on water, turn water into wine, feed 5000 from five loaves and two fish, raise the dead etc? Let alone greater miracles than these. So ‘works’ here cannot be miracles. More likely it is the propagation of the gospel. Eg Peter converting 3000 in one day. That is the consensus view among commentators.



Sure there is plenty of hearsay around about Christians raising people from the dead, mainly from the charismatic showmen or from Catholics wanting their favorite churchmen to be declared saints (who cannot be canonized unless they have performed a miracle). But is there any hard evidence of such events? That's not to say God cannot perform such miracles if he wanted to.



The point is the 2 Witnesses is not proof of that the gift of miracles is present in the church today. The most it shows (if you believe it is literal) is that God would raise up 2 people with such powers in the future.

There's an article of a mother who prayed and her son brought back to life after being dead for 45 minutes. And yes there were plenty of credible witnesses:Mom prays, dead son comes back to life

 

[swordsman1]

There's an article of a mother who prayed and her son brought back to life after being dead for 45 minutes. And yes there were plenty of credible witnesses:Mom prays, dead son comes back to life

Again, it is hearsay. There is a reason hearsay evidence is inadmissible in a court. It cannot be verified.

Has there been any peer-reviewed scientific evidence of someone who was certified dead (for days, not just a few minutes) being brought back to life?

BTW Praying for a miracle is not the gift of miracles. If you have to pray for a miracle it proves you do not have the gift of miracles. God can, and sometimes does, perform miracles in response to prayer.

 

[devin553344]

Again, it is hearsay. There is a reason hearsay evidence is inadmissible in a court. It cannot be verified.

Has there been any peer-reviewed scientific evidence of someone who was certified dead (for days, not just a few minutes) being brought back to life?

BTW Praying for a miracle is not the gift of miracles. If you have to pray for a miracle it proves you do not have the gift of miracles. God can, and sometimes does, perform miracles in response to prayer.

Well it sounds like you'll have to witness miracles yourself for you to believe. I on the other hand have fasted and prayed for 3 days on several occasions and witnessed healings that were verified via doctors and ultrasounds. Which the doctor said should not have cleared up on its own.

 

[swordsman1]

Well it sounds like you'll have to witness miracles yourself for you to believe. I on the other hand have fasted and prayed for 3 days on several occasions and witnessed healings that were verified via doctors and ultrasounds. Which the doctor said should not have cleared up on its own.

That is not much comfort to the millions of people who were diagnosed with cancer, and despite Christians saying they are praying for them, subsequently died. Clearly it is not God's will for everyone to be healed despite the earnest prayers of godly Christians. Signs and wonders are hardly an effective tool for evangelism, seeing as 99% of the time they don't occur or are fake.

 

[timothyu]

Does it matter who they are? One could easily say Julian Assange and Edward Snowden for it is what they represent, not anti-Christ but anti-system of man. Anti-system of man is definitely not the church although it is supposed to be..

 

[DamianWarS]

Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

if the witnesses are fraudulent then the message is fraudulent.

 

[devin553344]

That is not much comfort to the millions of people who were diagnosed with cancer, and despite Christians saying they are praying for them, subsequently died. Clearly it is not God's will for everyone to be healed despite the earnest prayers of godly Christians. Signs and wonders are hardly an effective tool for evangelism, seeing as 99% of the time they don't occur or are fake.

God has increased my faith so much thru miracles that I can no longer doubt that he exists. So I would say it is effective for evangelism. I'm living proof.

 

[swordsman1]

God has increased my faith so much thru miracles that I can no longer doubt that he exists. So I would say it is effective for evangelism. I'm living proof.

My faith does not depend on miracles. And I never doubted God's existence.

If faith depends on miracles then 99% of people would reject Christianity because most of the time they don't occur, despite our earnest prayers.

Faith comes from hearing the gospel, not witnessing miracles.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

 

[devin553344]

My faith does not depend on miracles. And I never doubted God's existence.

If faith depends on miracles then 99% of people would reject Christianity because most of the time they don't occur, despite our earnest prayers.

Faith comes from hearing the gospel, not witnessing miracles.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

I always believed in Jesus, and while my faith was not based on miracles, once I witness them they increased my faith. That's the simple truth about how faith works.

 

[timothyu]

If faith depends on miracles then 99% of people would reject Christianity because most of the time they don't occur, despite our earnest prayers.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Jen35]

The Jews placed them in high esteem obviously. And if Jews are going to have to accept Jesus during the Tribulation, which better two guys are there to promote him than Moses and Elijah?

As I have stated Rev 11:6 provides the clearest clue who the 2 are, in terms of the signs they will perform.

Well i think that is a bunch of bologna and how do you know what is and isn't better or isn't good or good enough? Were you the Lord who created the earth, put the sun, moon and stars in sky and said it is good? Are you the Lord who fills up the whole heavens above and Earth below, who knows all things and could discern through our hearts and minds? Who are you to say such? Why does it have to be Moses and Elijah? You people profess to worship and love God yet deny and reject his power and him empowering his own people....

 

[swordsman1]

I always believed in Jesus, and while my faith was not based on miracles, once I witness them they increased my faith. That's the simple truth about how faith works.

Seeking signs is not the way to increase faith....

Matt. 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign;

Reading and studying God's word is the secret to growing in faith....

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation

 

[swordsman1]

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Exactly. Today we walk by faith and not by sight. And are blessed as a result.

 

[devin553344]

Seeking signs is not the way to increase faith....

Matt. 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign;

Reading and studying God's word is the secret to growing in faith....

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation

What makes you think I'm seeking signs? I've simply been blessed by God Also you should read Matthew 17:18-21