How To Find The Truth About God?

[Tinker Grey]

Thinking and knowing are different things. You THINK because you are depending on your finite nature, I KNOW because i'm following the God of wisdom.

This is about discerning the truth about an infinite being. Only God can show Himself to you, be known and found, IF you take and follow His wisdom. So, I'm inviting others to follow the God of wisdom so that they can also KNOW for themselves.



All i can do for now in this thread is to give my suggestion that will surely help others in finding the truth IF ONLY anyone takes it and applies it.



Yes, i've got many things. But that will be of no use to discuss unless you take my first advise and apply it. When that is achieved, then only i can manage to do more. Because this requires you follow the God of wisdom which you are refusing to do.

I follow what is true. God isn't true.

You've presented nothing to follow. You've got only assertions.

 

[GospelS]

God isn't true.

This is your assertion.

You've presented nothing to follow.

This is what i'm presenting: Acknowledge God. Fear God.

Thank you for discussing.

 

[Tinker Grey]

This is your assertion.

If you can make 'em, so can I.

This is what i'm presenting: Acknowledge God. Fear God.

One can neither acknowledge nor fear what one doesn't believe in.

 

[GospelS]

If you can make 'em, so can I. One can neither acknowledge nor fear what one doesn't believe in.

Then you cannot discern the truth. I respect your choice to not believe in the wisdom of God, that which can only lead you to the truth.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Then you cannot discern the truth. I respect your choice to not believe in the wisdom of God, that which can only lead you to the truth.

I have discerned truth...there are no gods. See, easy.

If you could discern truth, you would realize this.

I respect your choice to not believe ...

Oh, and belief is not something someone can choose. Either one finds oneself convinced, or one doesn't. I don't. No choice involved.

 

[GospelS]

@Tinker Grey

I have discerned truth...there are no gods. See, easy.

It’s like a fish in the depths of an ocean saying that it has discerned the truth that you don’t exist. But the truth is you do exist.

Oh, and belief is not something someone can choose. Either one finds oneself convinced, or one doesn't. I don't. No choice involved.

If only you took my suggestion and applied it, you would be convinced to believe it. So what I meant is that I respect your choice to not take my advice of following God’s wisdom.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I guess wisdom includes dodging difficult questions. Good to know!

 

[GospelS]

I guess wisdom includes dodging difficult questions. Good to know!

Please allow me sometime. I have no intention to dodge.

 

[Silmarien]

Oh, and belief is not something someone can choose. Either one finds oneself convinced, or one doesn't. I don't. No choice involved.

I don't find the evidence for Christianity convincing either, but I chose it anyway. I don't try to actively force myself to believe its claims, since that strikes me as deeply unhealthy, but I've found that if you conform to a worldview, belief does eventually start to follow. (I mean, I suspect that what's going on is more sacramental than psychological in nature, but that's kind of my point.)

So yeah, you can choose. It's kind of like hurling oneself off of an epistemological cliff, and it can get pretty complicated, but it can definitely be done.

 

[GospelS]

Why would the laws stop being good because of the arrival of the messiah?

Allegory: Electricity is a dangerous form of energy. Contrast an open live downed electric wire with an insulated/protected/concealed/covered/coated electric wire. Stepping within a certain zone of a live electric wire that is touching the ground without certain precautions is dangerous causing electrocuted and death. While the protected electric wire is safer and does not necessitate us to take the same precautions we do for a live electric wire, although it is the same electric wire and energy that is inside the protective outer coating. That does not mean the precautions that we took within a live electric wire zone aren't good anymore.

Likewise, the very presence of God and His Holiness is much more severe and dangerous than any power you can ever imagine. In the earlier days, God by His Spirit came to dwell among people. When God in His Spirit dwells among humans, then man is in a danger zone and will have to follow the given commands or face the consequences. So it was needed to give certain laws to keep humans survive the very presence of God's Holiness.

Later, God has put on flesh (concealed Himself as Messiah) and came to dwell among humans making it safer for humans to touch and draw near Him thus freeing us from following certain rules we needed to follow before. This is why some laws are meant for a time until the arrival of Messiah and does not necessitate certain laws to be followed because God took care of shielding us from the power of His Holiness and very presence. Now God is approachable through Messiah alone.

If so, do you believe that homosexuals, Sabbath laborers, and those who dine on shrimp should be put to death?

Messiah was already put to death for all the violations committed against the law. The foreshadow of the law, Messiah has already come. So we no longer put anyone to death since we see Messiah taking their sin upon Himself having died in their place. A person can pay his charges against the law by counting on Messiah and by receiving Him before God and before men to enter the God's presence.

Just to let you know. While i’m willing to answer more questions you might have, however, considering my tough schedules, it is not always very feasible for me to reply back most of the time, especially that which need more time and long discussions. So please be considerate in case you don’t hear back from me. Thank you.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't find the evidence for Christianity convincing either, but I chose it anyway. I don't try to actively force myself to believe its claims, since that strikes me as deeply unhealthy, but I've found that if you conform to a worldview, belief does eventually start to follow. (I mean, I suspect that what's going on is more sacramental than psychological in nature, but that's kind of my point.)

So yeah, you can choose. It's kind of like hurling oneself off of an epistemological cliff, and it can get pretty complicated, but it can definitely be done.

I understand a bit how that works. You attend Bible studies and you allow for the sake of discussion that Jesus is real and really here. You keep attending and you keep allowing. Eventually, allowing comes naturally ... one need not even think about it. You start talking about the Trinity and its inner workings as if you know. Then you are no longer allowing but believing--you think you know; you describe it as knowing.

But I was part of this culture for 44 years. I really, really believed. Eventually, I wanted to know whether it corresponded to reality and how I could tell and examine for myself.

I think, for me, I would find it nearly impossible to fake-it-till-I-make-it. I know this process. It would take a long, long time to fool myself. And that, in the end, is the crux. Why would I want to fool myself? Why would I want to give up my epistemology? Why would I want Christianity, if anything? I know (using the word advisedly) that it is a muddled mess.

I care about knowing things are true and have no interest in believing that they are true.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Allegory: Electricity is a dangerous form of energy. Contrast an open live downed electric wire with an insulated/protected/concealed/covered/coated electric wire. Stepping within a certain zone of a live electric wire that is touching the ground without certain precautions is dangerous causing electrocuted and death. While the protected electric wire is safer and does not necessitate us to take the same precautions we do for a live electric wire, although it is the same electric wire and energy that is inside the protective outer coating. That does not mean the precautions that we took within a live electric wire zone aren't good anymore.

Likewise, the very presence of God and His Holiness is much more severe and dangerous than any power you can ever imagine. In the earlier days, God by His Spirit came to dwell among people. When God in His Spirit dwells among humans, then man is in a danger zone and will have to follow the given commands or face the consequences. So it was needed to give certain laws to keep humans survive the very presence of God's Holiness.

Later, God has put on flesh (concealed Himself as Messiah) and came to dwell among humans making it safer for humans to touch and draw near Him thus freeing us from following certain rules we needed to follow before. This is why some laws are meant for a time until the arrival of Messiah and does not necessitate certain laws to be followed because God took care of shielding us from the power of His Holiness and very presence. Now God is approachable through Messiah alone.



Messiah was already put to death for all the violations committed against the law. The foreshadow of the law, Messiah has already come. So we no longer put anyone to death since we see Messiah taking their sin upon Himself having died in their place. A person can pay his charges against the law by counting on Messiah and by receiving Him before God and before men.

Just to let you know. While i’m willing to answer more questions you might have, however, considering my tough schedules, it is not always very feasible for me to reply back most of the time, especially that which need more time and long discussions. So please be considerate in case you don’t hear back from me. Thank you.

Let me know if you have the time to provide a direct answer instead of this bizarre analogy.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Let me know if you have the time to provide a direct answer instead of this bizarre analogy.

Perhaps you could provide a multiple choice question that is satisfactory to yourself ?
(like with four or more answers: A, B, C, D ... ... )

 

[GospelS]

Let me know if you have the time to provide a direct answer instead of this bizarre analogy.

@Nihilist Virus

Some laws are meant for a time until the arrival of Messiah and does not necessitate certain laws to be followed because God took care of shielding us from the power of His Holiness and very presence, by concealing Himself in flesh.

Messiah was already put to death for all the violations committed against the law. The foreshadow of the law, Messiah has already come. So we no longer put anyone to death since we see Messiah taking their sin upon Himself having died in their place.

A person can pay his charges against the law by counting on Messiah and by receiving Him before God and before men to enter God's presence.

 

[cvanwey]

Is God real? Is it foolishness to deny God? How would you know? Can you really know Him? How to find Him? Lost? Undecided? Confused what to believe and what not? Too many faiths and ideologies? Too much information and questions? Worried how will you ever know and find the right path?

If you are in this position, then what you need is wisdom that gives you understanding to discern the truth and have clarification. Now, where and how can you find that wisdom? And how to gain/receive wisdom to discern the truth?

My suggestion for you is to look for the path which claims to have brought forth wisdom and possessed it, and then listen and walk in that path. This means to say that he is the owner of wisdom, who caused/created wisdom, and is the God of wisdom.

The God in the bible tells that wisdom was brought forth, set up and possessed by Him. He says that He gives wisdom and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. He says that by wisdom He founded the earth and by understanding he established the heavens. Proverbs 2:6 and 3:19.

Now, how to gain/receive wisdom? God says He will give wisdom and understanding to those who fear and follow Him. In order to fear God, you need to first acknowledge God. Thus, you will receive understanding to know God and discern the truth. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all those who follow his precepts have good understanding. Psalm 111:10.

The Lord possessed wisdom at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago wisdom was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths wisdom was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, wisdom was brought forth, before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. Proverbs 8:22-25.

I have an honest response for you @gospels

What say-you about someone whom was devoted to such claims for decades, but then actually started to explore such claims for themselves; only to find that many of such claims in 'wisdom' did/do not seem to comport with their reality?

(i.e.) When comparing actual falsifiable claims from Genesis with human discovery, where evidence based discovery does not seem to match that of the Bible's claim(s)? Then what?

Also...

(i.e.) When comparing 'Jesus's' endorsed 'wisdom' of inequality of women in authority and undefined enslavement of humans in the NT?

The above observations alone are enough to raise an eyebrow or three for anyone's continued faith/belief.

We can only 'discern' what we have the ability to 'discern.' Unfalsifiable claims, where a book claims to have wisdom, gets us no closer to 'truth.' Again, we can only investigate such claims which appear "investigatable." When some of these claims do not jive with 'reality', this is the reason some former believers have no choice, but to walk away. As @Tinker Grey exclaimed, you have no choice in what you believe. You can choose not to investigate, yes. But some of the ones that do choose to investigate, with unbias, end up walking away from their former assumptions/belief/faith.

The ironic thing about this book of wisdom, is that such conclusions are based upon one's belief. Again, something in which humans cannot control. Ironic, coming from a 'book of wisdom'.

However, former believers may still want such a former asserted stance to be true, as they/we feel we are extremely important, and maybe want to live forever...?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have an honest response for you @gospels

What say-you about someone whom was devoted to such claims for decades, but then actually started to explore such claims for themselves; only to find that many of such claims in 'wisdom' did/do not seem to comport with their reality?

(i.e.) When comparing actual falsifiable claims from Genesis with human discovery, where evidence based discovery does not seem to match that of the Bible's claim(s)? Then what?

"honest"? Perhaps, but not with true information. The whole world is deceived, as is common with all mankind, both to produce false information, and to deceive others with it.

As written somewhere in Scripture, WHO LED YOU ASTRAY ? (paraphrased)

 

[cvanwey]

As written somewhere in Scripture, WHO LED YOU ASTRAY ? (paraphrased)

As stated in my response... Unbiased study of falsifiable claims.

Even if I'm incorrect on all concluded accounts, which seemingly contradict Biblical assertions, it would appear such a claimed God would rather me burn for eternity, for something in which I have no control in; belief. How is that 'wisdom'?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When a lie is told often enough, it is believed (by most of the population).
When people are told they can decide for themselves that they can discover the truth by their own study , it is not too hard to convince them of that, or of anything else eventually, even though it is false.

What people have control of is calling on God for deliverance, salvation, healing, freedom from the so-called (yet false) 'unbiased' (automatically false because of the sinfulness of all men) lies of men and of demons.

What men say , by study or otherwise, does not need to be made "falsifiable"
since it is by nature already false.

Men have a choice to believe what is false, which almost all men do.

A few choose to learn the truth from God, God Willing, and are set free from all the falseness of society/mankind/etc ....

As stated in my response... Unbiased study of falsifiable claims.

Even if I'm incorrect on all concluded accounts, which contradict Biblical assertions, it would appear such a claimed God would rather me burn for eternity, to for something in which I have no control in; belief. How is that 'wisdom'?

His Wisdom is that no one can be saved by their own study, nor by believing what is false (even though they have been tricked into believing it),
.....
the only way to be saved is by Christ Crucified .....

 

[cvanwey]

When a lie is told often enough, it is believed (by most of the population).

Good to know, from 'Google.'

"Christianity is the most adhered to religion in the United States, with 75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015."

When people are told they can decide for themselves that they can discover the truth by their own study , it is not too hard to convince them of that, or of anything else eventually, even though it is false.

Depends on the evidence presented. I guess there is still a chance the world may actually be flat, right? My point being, some former claims and assertions may never again be credibly founded. This does not mean that the newer assertion is 'correct' - (that the earth is more pear-shaped), but that the former assertion has been completely ruled out And in this particular case, does it matter that we continue to be inhabited by a 'flat earth society?' Not really...

What people have control of is calling on God for deliverance, salvation, healing,

You have further confirmed my prior statement. That we can control our physical actions, but not what we already believe. (i.e.) We can choose to investigate further. Some may only choose to study from specific sources.

Men have a choice to believe what is false, which almost all men do.

Again, use the example above. If you currently believe the earth is not flat, spontaneously make yourself believe the earth is now flat This is my point with the Bible. It's as if the Bible is asking me to believe in something in which I currently do not believe.

His Wisdom is that no one can be saved by their own study, nor by believing what is false (even though they have been tricked into believing it),

Belief is the catalyst, via the Bible. Humans cannot control what they believe. For me to instead assert that I do believe anyways, would be a lie, and God would know this...

the only way to be saved is by Christ Crucified .....

I agree that the Bible states this. But what about all the ones whom studied such assertions, and are not convinced?

Again, pretending to believe would not fool God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good to know, from 'Google.'

"Christianity is the most adhered to religion in the United States, with 75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015."

Missed the truth though. ....
.... "adhered to religion" in the United States is deceptive. Like I said, tell a lie often enough, and most people will believe it.

Find truth, and few know it, few receive it, and instead, like you do, people attack those who love truth.