LCMS Only: Would you support a change to an episcopal polity?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

do you think the scripture supports a congregational structure as the LCMS has now? If you support it do you think that it is necessary to have valid Apostolic Succession, or is that a nicety, but not a requirement to you?

I was raised from birth and stayed with family in the LCMS for much of my life, with perfect attendance until I got older.
My thoughts about the LCMS are these:
The LCMS was, and hopefully still is, the best of the choices of the Lutheran groups to belong to and for children to get their training and education(sunday school, confirmation, and grade school k-12, etc) in.
There's no such thing as 'valid' succession - it is not a nicety either, rather the thought and such about that are often a serious hindrance, so no it is obviously not a requirement.

 

[tampasteve]

I was raised from birth and stayed with family in the LCMS for much of my life, with perfect attendance until I got older.
My thoughts about the LCMS are these:
The LCMS was, and hopefully still is, the best of the choices of the Lutheran groups to belong to and for children to get their training and education(sunday school, confirmation, and grade school k-12, etc) in.
There's no such thing as 'valid' succession - it is not a nicety either, rather the thought and such about that are often a serious hindrance, so no it is obviously not a requirement.

Please remember that you are in the Lutheran forum, so teaching is not allowed as you are Anabaptist now.

It really depends on what one believes and how one interprets the Confessions and Scripture as to which synod one thinks is the right one for them. As for valid Apostolic Succession, I believe in it and believe it is good, but not a requirement. For me the ELCA is the right synod, and it has valid Apostolic Succession through the Anglican Communion, which is important to me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Please remember that you are in the Lutheran forum, so teaching is not allowed as you are Anabaptist now.

No worries. I only gave my thoughts on those things. I won't explain why, nor try to teach anyone in this thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Please remember that you are in the Lutheran forum, so teaching is not allowed as you are Anabaptist now.

It really depends on what one believes and how one interprets the Confessions and Scripture as to which synod one thinks is the right one for them. As for valid Apostolic Succession, I believe in it and believe it is good, but not a requirement. For me the ELCA is the right synod, and it has valid Apostolic Succession through the Anglican Communion, which is important to me.

By their own definition, but not according to Rome; remember they defined it first. Historically, even their determination is questionable. One would need the believe that the efficacy of the Church is dependent upon it for it to have any intrinsic value beyond custom and tradition.

From our point of view, which synod is best for me does not come into play at all; rather it is which Synod maintains the most original and Apostolic teachings, doctrines and practices that are in accord with Scripture that is untainted by criticisms historic or otherwise, or "what-ever-makes-you-feel-good" personal interpretations one wants to try and spin. From the POV of the LCMS and LCC fellowship with the Anglican Communion, which is in fellowship with a Presbyterian Church body that denies the real presence in the Eucharist leads one to question how valid the ELCA regards the Eucharist... so you can see where this is going...

The Apostolic nature of the Church has nothing to do with which Bishop happens to lay hands on which Clergyman; rather it has to do with the right preaching of God's word and the the right administration of the Sacraments in full accord with God's word. This is why, as New Lutheran posted, the LCMS is reaffirming historic Biblical doctrines regarding fellowship, false ecumenism and creationism.

 

[tampasteve]

By their own definition, but not according to Rome; remember they defined it first. Historically, even their determination is questionable. One would need the believe that the efficacy of the Church is dependent upon it for it to have any intrinsic value beyond custom and tradition.

I do not necessarily disagree with this. As I said, AS is not necessary, but it is a good thing in my opinion. So, if it comes to custom and tradition, then I think there is great value in that.

From our point of view, which synod is best for me does not come into play at all; rather it is which Synod maintains the most original and Apostolic teachings, doctrines and practices that are in accord with Scripture that is untainted by criticisms historic or otherwise, or "what-ever-makes-you-feel-good" personal interpretations one wants to try and spin. From the POV of the LCMS and LCC fellowship with the Anglican Communion, which is in fellowship with a Presbyterian Church body that denies the real presence in the Eucharist leads one to question how valid the ELCA regards the Eucharist... so you can see where this is going...

The Apostolic nature of the Church has nothing to do with which Bishop happens to lay hands on which Clergyman; rather it has to do with the right preaching of God's word and the the right administration of the Sacraments in full accord with God's word. This is why, as New Lutheran posted, the LCMS is reaffirming historic Biblical doctrines regarding fellowship, false ecumenism and creationism.

I understand and I am Ok with "agree to disagree" here. I know we won't see eye to eye no matter how much we debated the point and that is OK with me.

I won't debate the point or go further on the affirmations made at the convention, that is not my place here in the LCMS forum.

 

[Shane R]

I had a conversation with my Bishop a couple of days ago and he told me he would give an orthodox Lutheran body the apostolic succession if they became serious about an episcopal polity.

 

[tampasteve]

I had a conversation with my Bishop a couple of days ago and he told me he would give an orthodox Lutheran body the apostolic succession if they became serious about an episcopal polity.

Interesting. I am not sure that the LCMS would need to look outside of their "altar and pulpit fellowship" for that though as they are in "fellowship" with some churches that have valid AS, such as Latvia. But maybe another synod would desire it, but certainly not WELS/ELS....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interesting. I am not sure that the LCMS would need to look outside of their "altar and pulpit fellowship" for that though as they are in "fellowship" with some churches that have valid AS, such as Latvia. But maybe another synod would desire it, but certainly not WELS/ELS....

Since some of these Bishops have participated in both LCMS and LCC instalation of "presidents" with laying on of hands, LCMS and LCC may already have it if anyone is really concerned, or even if there is such a thing.

 

[Shane R]

I recently read this short book:

It contained transcripts of three lectures, a couple of doctrinal statements, and an English consecration rite primarily drawn from the Swedish rite(s). I would summarize the author's position as "valid apostolic succession would be nice but not necessary." He was rather adamant that if confessional American Lutherans were to acquire this it should be done through the Swedish/Finnish/Baltic churches rather than Anglicans. I found that position odd since the Church of Sweden has accepted women into all orders of the ministry.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I recently read this short book:

It contained transcripts of three lectures, a couple of doctrinal statements, and an English consecration rite primarily drawn from the Swedish rite(s). I would summarize the author's position as "valid apostolic succession would be nice but not necessary." He was rather adamant that if confessional American Lutherans were to acquire this it should be done through the Swedish/Finnish/Baltic churches rather than Anglicans. I found that position odd since the Church of Sweden has accepted women into all orders of the ministry.

Not odd at all; there are confessional "free" (not state) Churches that are already in fellowship with, or close to declaring fellowship with LCC/LCMS; LCC has recently declared fellowship with The Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland; LCMS is very close to fellowship with the Mission Province of Sweden. Neither ordain women; both use the same interpretive standards regarding Scripture.