How to win

[LoAmmi]

My point here was not to argue about whether abortion is (always) morally wrong. I don't think that abortion always kills a human being and still don't think it is morally right. But that is a discussion for another thread. Here what we are talking about is the political impact of the Democrats abandoning a (militant, if you like) pro-choice stance.

You might be able to pull in some more right-wing votes by abandoning it, but the Republicans would have pulled in more votes in Lincoln's time by not being against slavery. If one holds a strong conviction that it is not moral to remove the bodily autonomy from people, then it seems like a problem to abandon those views just to score votes.

 

[Speedwell]

Paint me a scenario where a fully formed fetus (late term abortion third trimester) requires killing the soon to be infant?

I don't know enough about medical science to do that, but as I understand it there would have to be an immediate and unavoidable threat to the life of the mother and delivery of the fetus alive to be otherwise impossible. There are, I believe, instances where such a choice had to be made. Which would you choose? But that whole discussion is off topic here.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you sincerely and honestly think your Democratic neighbors want to 'kill innocent human beings'?

Ok, good question we can start there. But your question does not address the following:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.​

 

[civilwarbuff]

I can't have children.

I am sorry to hear that.....

But I've had friends pull children from schools because of the threat of a school shooter, but drive them around without a care in the world. You are far more likely to die of a car crash than a shooting. It's an illogical position to be terrified of one but fine with the other.

It is an illogical comparison......

I also don't like how our culture almost views children as the property of the parents.

In our culture parents can and are held responsible for the actions of the children....not necessarily in a criminal sense but certainly in a civil sense. If my kid steal a car he will probably be held liable for the criminal offense but I can be held responsible for civil penalties.....$$$$$$$$. So yeah, until they are legal they are mine........part of being an adult and a parent.....

 

[Speedwell]

Here is one of the articles covering her comments:

Kirsten Gillibrand & Abortion: Democrat Says Being Pro-Life Is Like Being Racist | National Review

And Gillibrand, a weak candidate near the bottom of the Presidential candidate pack, is arbiter of my opinions since when?

 

[LoAmmi]

It is an illogical comparison......

How so? The decision is about removing risk. The person is determining one situation is so dangerous that the entire life of the child must be changed, when in reality that risk is very small. But is not worried about another situation where the risk is much greater. It's a purely emotional decision.

 

[redleghunter]

Very useful. I was just searching for more info on the polling.

Sixty-one percent of Democrats identified as pro-choice, but a majority favored restrictions on abortion. Only 22 percent said that abortion should be available at any time while 13 percent said it should be legal within the first six months of the pregnancy.
Poll: More Democrats Are Pro-Life - The Resurgent

Therefore by the polling numbers a vast majority of Democrats would not agree with the syllogism of:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.​

They would support 'some' intentional killing of innocent human beings. AKA they would support restrictions on the intentional killing of innocent human beings. But I don't think they would go for that. I believe they believe what they do because of propaganda which dehumanizes human beings at the earlier stages of development.

 

[redleghunter]

And Gillibrand, a weak candidate near the bottom of the Presidential candidate pack, is arbiter of my opinions since when?

I didn't say she was.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I don't think that abortion always kills a human being

Serious question here: Then in these instances what do you think an abortion is killing?....or is it killing anything at all?

 

[redleghunter]

Because you declare them to be so? I disagree.

Then defend your proposition and then please explain how your proposition addresses:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.
​

Unless it was your point that some sort of assumed force negates the human being developing in the womb as a human being.

 

[LoAmmi]

Therefore by the polling numbers a vast majority of Democrats would not agree with the syllogism of:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.​

They would support 'some' intentional killing of innocent human beings. AKA they would support restrictions on the intentional killing of innocent human beings. But I don't think they would go for that. I believe they believe what they do because of propaganda which dehumanizes human beings at the earlier stages of development.

I accept the premises and the conclusion. However, I must be convinced that a person's freedom being taken away is less of a moral wrong than the conclusion.

 

[Halbhh]

It seems the Handmaiden's Tale (a work of fiction) is the plank for some of the 2020 candidates. I would exclude Joe Biden as he probably does not have HULU nor cares to learn how to use a Smart TV or tablet.


Are you saying the Democratic presidential candidates are using fear tactics to keep their base?

I can't flatly say all 23 (or whatever the number is now) are intentionally using fear tactics, nor could I claim that 0 are. Going further, I can't read minds/hearts -- only God can -- so I couldn't even be sure about even just 1, unless the pattern became very clear, where the politician was caught in repeated falsehoods, just making things up, until the instances are very numerous.

 

[Halbhh]

Got nothing to do with what we are talking about....

I wrote poorly then.

See post #54 for a short clear version.

Or better, I'll repost it just below.

 

[Halbhh]

Sixty-one percent of Democrats identified as pro-choice, but a majority favored restrictions on abortion. Only 22 percent said that abortion should be available at any time while 13 percent said it should be legal within the first six months of the pregnancy.
Poll: More Democrats Are Pro-Life - The Resurgent

Can you see the implication? --> There are many diverse viewpoints among Democratic voters.

 

[Speedwell]

Serious question here: Then in these instances what do you think an abortion is killing?....or is it killing anything at all?

That's a question I don't have an answer to. At some time between fertilization and birth a human being comes into existence. There may not even be a determinable point at which this happens; it may happen gradually. That is why I am opposed to abortion. That is also why I have been pro-choice, because I don't want right-wing religious ideologues making cruel and arbitrary laws about it, because I don't think they have an answer either.

 

[redleghunter]

I accept the premises and the conclusion. However, I must be convinced that a person's freedom being taken away is less of a moral wrong than the conclusion.

You place a human's liberty over the life of another human?

 

[redleghunter]

I can't flatly say all 23 (or whatever the number is now) are intentionally using fear tactics, nor could I claim that 0 are. Going further, I can't read minds/hearts -- only God can -- so I couldn't even be sure about even just 1, unless the pattern became very clear, where the politician was caught in repeated falsehoods, just making things up, until the instances are very numerous.

All 25 candidates have the same talking points on abortion. It is not even an issue which they feel they have to debate over.

 

[Speedwell]

Sixty-one percent of Democrats identified as pro-choice, but a majority favored restrictions on abortion. Only 22 percent said that abortion should be available at any time while 13 percent said it should be legal within the first six months of the pregnancy.
Poll: More Democrats Are Pro-Life - The Resurgent

Can you see the implication? --> There are many diverse viewpoints among Democratic voters.

of course. Nobody who has been paying attention thinks otherwise.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How so? The decision is about removing risk. The person is determining one situation is so dangerous that the entire life of the child must be changed, when in reality that risk is very small. But is not worried about another situation where the risk is much greater. It's a purely emotional decision.

As I stated, an illogical comparison......

 

[redleghunter]

Sixty-one percent of Democrats identified as pro-choice, but a majority favored restrictions on abortion. Only 22 percent said that abortion should be available at any time while 13 percent said it should be legal within the first six months of the pregnancy.
Poll: More Democrats Are Pro-Life - The Resurgent

Can you see the implication? --> There are many diverse viewpoints among Democratic voters.

I replied to that:

Therefore by the polling numbers a vast majority of Democrats would not agree with the syllogism of:

Premise #1: It is wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.
Premise #2: Abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.
Conclusion: Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.
They would support 'some' intentional killing of innocent human beings. AKA they would support restrictions on the intentional killing of innocent human beings. But I don't think they would go for that. I believe they believe what they do because of propaganda which dehumanizes human beings at the earlier stages of development.