How would you greet a bishop?

[Not David]

I hear you. That's nearly inevitable. The lies and nonsense that some Christians have been taught about what is right and wrong, about what it means to be "Biblical", etc., are huge. It can take years to slowly wander out of those lies. It's tough. It took me a decade to begin to wonder if a Sola Scriptura, Baptistic frame work might be missing vital stuff. Still, while a Baptist, I did the best I could, learned, grew, fellowshipped.

Don't give up. Keep fellowshipping. I am seeing a very cool, very inspiring shift. More and more Christians who are not CC / EO / OO rejecting Sola Fide, questioning the canon, and generally backing off *on their own* from the pilars of Reformation theology. It is pretty awesome.

True, I was one of them.

You can see me making a Protestant thread here just a year ago:
An United Protestant Church?

 

[ripple the car]

True, I was one of them.

You can see me making a Protestant thread here just a year ago:
An United Protestant Church?

I've made some, too. It's a journey.

I guess my main message would be, don't give up. Folks will misunderstand, debate, and say weird things. Put Truth out there, anyway.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I would never imply such a thing. I know of many Traditional Christians who have understood salvation by grace through faith perfectly well.

That hasn't really been my experience in person nor by reading the writings of some.

Not every body. Only those who exhibit a certain mechanical type religious expression. I have seen rabbis act the same way.

Very religious. But saved? Why be religious then?

Not everyone thinks that faith is based solely on emotion. This was a huge problem for myself and a lot of people around me when I was an evangelical Baptist. People had to work themselves up constantly by emotional music and charismatic preaching to "feel" saved. That dead mechanical prayer people sometimes have and that you criticize takes greater faith then any person in emotional ecstasy will ever have. Why? Because waiting on God and praying to him, whether it is emotional or not- being consistent- having a rule, is having faith in God no matter if it seems if you are gaining anything or not. I pray the same prayers every day. Some times I am not really in the mindset of prayer while reading them, some days I am so emotional over them it is hard to pray. But the harder times are the more spiritually beneficial. When I am forced to be "mechanical" in my prayer, it teaches me perseverance and trusting in God for the future. It teaches me discipline and over time helps me actually know the importance of what I am saying.

I would take 100 "stale" prayers over one emotional, impassioned, prayer teaching me only to pray because it feels good. I thank God every day I left the evangelical movement, which teaches no true piety and Christian living, which is why it is slowly but surely dying in the west because of hypocrisy, and people are going back to Orthodoxy. You think God doesn't agree with this system? Then ask him why he set up Judaism, the most strict, repetitive tradition in the world. DO YOU THINK God would set up a faulty system? No. The Pharisees had the issue of hypocrisy, and self love. Interesting that it was them described negatively as teaching and praying on the street corners, which I see much more evangelicals doing than any traditional Christians.

Works and Faith are both required for salvation. To deny works is to deny becoming a son of God, a Christ. You reject Christ's command to "go and be perfect". Be either hot or cold, it is the lukewarm he will spew from his mouth. Those who fervently claim faith, but have no fruit.

 

[☦Marius☦]

"Sacramental religious folks"...oh, for Pete's sake...it's like every forum is the "General Theology" forum!

Here's an idea: if so many people here hate the Christian religion, then maybe Christian Forums is not the place for them?

Go post on "IAmMyOwnJudge.com" or "NobodyUnderstandsChristianityButMe.net" something. And if those don't exist, I'm sure you can found them and draw tons of similar really 'advanced' and 'spiritual, but not religious' people to them. People who really get it.

Try not to be to hard on them. A person has to take a step back and see that they are not the standard of truth; are not God, in order to realize that Christ didn't leave any question open. That he gave the church leaders to set the canons, and the apostles gave councils to solve any early issues.

I went through that, and every convert goes through that hopefully.

Orthodoxy converted me firstly because of the humility of its clergy and laypeople before I knew a single thing about it. That only comes from people being completely dedicated to something they weren't responsible for creating. To devote your life to something that isn't in any way you. That is true Christianity.

 

[GenemZ]

No it's just your idea

My idea? I quoted Scripture. Did you realize that?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this:
to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself
from being polluted by the world." Ja 1:27​

That is not Christianity per se. Its religion.

The following is Christianity. (Its not about following rituals and traditions.)

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the
kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his
worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Jn 4:23-24​

 

[GenemZ]

I would take 100 "stale" prayers over one emotional, impassioned, prayer teaching me only to pray because it feels good. I thank God every day I left the evangelical movement, which teaches no true piety and Christian living, which is why it is slowly but surely dying in the west because of hypocrisy, and people are going back to Orthodoxy. You think God doesn't agree with this system? Then ask him why he set up Judaism, the most strict, repetitive tradition in the world.

God did not. That is why Jesus hated the religious leaders who had set up such a system. Jesus mocked the repetitiveness syndrome that the religious leaders thrived in. Matthew 6:7



God was only strict about certain things. Would you not be strict with your kids about drugs when a lot of your neighbor's kids use them?

 

[GenemZ]

Because as Christ saves us, we live out our trust in Him, love for Him, faith in Him, and obedience to Him by living out the Christian life through the Church that He gave us.

How many churches were written to in the Bible? There were many local churches. Look at the Book of Revelation! Revelation 2 and 3. They were all unique and different.

Paul wrote to different churches, too. All were unique and different.

It was was not a cookie cutter system. Each church was assigned by God to overcome the evils of their own unique area. Each one had its pastors who overcame the evils through the teaching and application of Bible doctrine. Not rituals and traditions. Truth that overcame evil in its day. Many denominations fail today. They have all lost the reason God has churches. To teach and expound on God's Word so the Holy Spirit in the believer can use those believers in the power of knowing the truth. Jesus said that the truth will make us free. Not traditions and rituals. Traditions and ritual has its place. But it minor when compared to the power understanding God Word imparts to the believer seeking God's Word.

Religion hides in a shell of predictability it withdraws into.
Christianity studies and gains knowledge to overcome the evil.

 

[GenemZ]

I hear you. That's nearly inevitable. The lies and nonsense that some Christians have been taught about what is right and wrong, about what it means to be "Biblical", etc., are huge.

Yes. Because they know the right principles, but are ignorant as to how to implement them.

But the principles are still correct. That is not an excuse to surrender and go hide under a blanket of religion as a means to turn off one's brain and cease being a threat to Satan's desire to control the world by making oneself into a non-threat.

False peace is to be found in religion because the demonic realm no longer sees such people as a potential threat to their desire to control the minds of men. That is the problem we face.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness,
against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12​

Religion turns a person into a non-threat to those powers. Hence.. a false sense of peace is granted them because evil stops resisting them. For, they are not fighting the good fight to gain truth and to live by it.

Religion is stagnant. It never progresses. It makes the demonic realm feel safe with their goals for mankind. The religious people feel like they are smarter than all those attempting and failing to find truth. But, they are only a propaganda tool to try and get Christians to put down their arms and surrender to the system of ritual and tradition that produces no threat to Satan's desire to rule the world.

 

[Albion]

True, I was one of them.

You can see me making a Protestant thread here just a year ago:
An United Protestant Church?

The thing that always seems to be overlooked when someone switches from one of the Protestant churches either to one of the Catholic ones or to one of the cults...is that those groupings of churches are just as divided as the one he bailed out of!

But of course, when joining any religious society that claims to be the only true church, he buys into the idea that the other churches in that classification are not real churches or true, not any more than the ones he left. So he thinks his new one actually is unique because it says so.

But its all an illusion.

He might as well have remained a Lutheran or Baptist, for example, and said to himself that this one is the only real church, the only one that is really correct.

 

[dzheremi]

Try not to be to hard on them. A person has to take a step back and see that they are not the standard of truth; are not God, in order to realize that Christ didn't leave any question open. That he gave the church leaders to set the canons, and the apostles gave councils to solve any early issues.

I went through that, and every convert goes through that hopefully.

Orthodoxy converted me firstly because of the humility of its clergy and laypeople before I knew a single thing about it. That only comes from people being completely dedicated to something they weren't responsible for creating. To devote your life to something that isn't in any way you. That is true Christianity.

I agree. It's just irritating to come on here, onto a religious forum, and constantly read about 'religion' (in scare quotes like that) being the source of all bad things from those who claim to be Christian. Nobody forces anyone to claim to be anything, but if you are going to be claim to be something that the people around you care about, is it so wrong that they hold you to the same standard to we are all held in common (this being one of the non-confessional forums)? I'm not even talking about being Orthodox in particular (I would think you'd have to get these people to reconsider their whole view of religion itself long before that; to go from "religion is bad" to "I'm an Orthodox Christian" or vice-versa over something someone posted on the internet seems extreme to the point of being mentally and emotionally unstable). I'm talking about being respectful of where you are. I don't go to atheist forums and come up with my own definition of atheism that is inclusive of my religious belief so that I too can call myself an atheist and post there, and then proceed to lecture people on 'atheism' because obviously I understand it but they don't. Ditto Muslim, LDS, or other types of religious forums. How silly would that be? Or at least how silly would it be to do so and then spend all this time claiming that this was not what I was doing.

Even on here...would you have the same response if I went on to TAW and asserted in an offensive manner my (non-Chalcedonian) Orthodoxy, disregarding what the standard is there? No, right? Because that wouldn't be a matter of humility -- that would be a matter of "We have our standard here, and you, by virtue of what you are claiming, should know better." If these people claimed to be anything other than Christians, who would care? I don't care what non-Christians do, at the level of freedom of conscience and belief. But if you claim to be a follower of Christ, I don't want to hear how you have all the answers because you know a bunch of things that somehow nobody before you knew. This is not You-ianity Forums. If someone wants to discuss the scriptures, then fine, let's do that; if someone wants to discuss what they see as problems in hierarchical Church governance, then fine, let's do that; if someone wants to discuss medieval abuses in the RCC, then fine, let's do that. Those are all at least topics over which people can reasonably differ...but what can anyone really say when all a person has to offer is a sort of 'personal revelation' that only they have? That's fine, if that's what your experience of Christianity has been (I take it from some of the replies in this thread that this is what some people mean by "getting saved", and I wouldn't want to directly question an individual's salvation, as that's between them and God), but there's really nothing to say about it. What can you say? "Oh...so...uh...that happened, eh?" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[GenemZ]

Out of the Exodus wanderings in the wilderness only Joshua and Caleb (and their families) were in the number of adults to come out of Egypt to enter the promised land. Out of most likely millions..... Only two understood and pleased God. The others God killed off.

God is not looking for the biggest church.

He is looking for those, even if its a few, willing to be his church in their lives!

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Mat 18:20

Its sad how so many believers keep failing to see that we must be filled with the Spirit to see how blind we have been. Its not about joining some organization, and then trying another. Its about standing still and allowing God to correct us all.. For each one of us is wrong until we discover the corrections needed. Pride rebuffs. Wisdom knows when a correction is from God. Pride seeks religion instead. For its something that they can grasp with their human mind....And, do it.

 

[His student]

..............Works and Faith are both required for salvation. To deny works is to deny becoming a son of God, a Christ. You reject Christ's command to "go and be perfect". Be either hot or cold, it is the lukewarm he will spew from his mouth. Those who fervently claim faith, but have no fruit.

I almost gave your post an "agree" because I do agree with a great deal of what you say about emotion vs. thoughtful prayer and worship. But in the end I just had to settle on giving a "like" instead.

I totally agree that "salvation" in the total sense of the word includes being conformed to the image of God's Son. (Although I'd quibble a bit when it comes to saying we are becoming a "Christ". Likewise a bit with the idea of "becoming a son of God".)

Which is one reason I can't seem to agree with Orthodoxy even though it has much to offer. Most Orthodox Christians stress the concept of what Protestants call "sanctification" (becoming like Him) to the point where they ignore the fact that our saved status is usually presented in the past tense.

Actually salvation is presented in the scriptures in 3 tenses.

1. We have been saved (1 Cor. 6:11; Titus 3:4-5)
2. We are being saved (2Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12-13; Heb. 2:1-3; 2Peter 1:10;1Jn.1:7)
3. We shall be saved (Matt. 25:46;Rom. 5:9-10;Rom. 13:11;Eph. 1:14;1Thess. 5:8)

But I'm concentrating on the first one for now. This one seems to be the sticking point among Evangelicals and Orthodox (and some other groups).

In their zeal for holy change in the life of their people and differentiate themselves from those pushy evangelicals many church teachers seem to ignore or disbelieve the fact that there needs to be a starting point where one "is" saved and seal with God's Holy Spirit (Who only then continues to work in them to do His will).

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.." Eph. 2:5-7

It is the teaching by so many of the Orthodox concerning "being saved" (by traditional church activities as well as good works) to the exclusion of or even disagreement with the idea of an appeal to believe the good news and have a once for all evangelical change of status before God by Grace through faith ---- that causes evangelicals to see the Orthodox as perhaps not being saved in the first place.

I.e. - they have gotten, as it were, the cart before the horse (at least in the eyes of some of the evangelicals they spar with in forums like this one). The charge then becomes that Orthodox (and Catholics and such) are trying to earn a justified status before God by their good works and church activities rather than through the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

And it isn't just an illusion on the part of evangelicals. I have seen that play out many times in the forum. E.g. - an Orthodox may say something like "I began to cooperate with God and begin being saved in 1997" - giving the impression that he never had saving and justifying faith in Christ's work at Calvary in the 1st place.

Whereas an evangelical might say (more comprehensively and correctly IMO) something like, "I received Christ as my personal Savor in 1997 and was saved at that time. The Lord has been working mightily in my life ever since to conform me to the image of Christ. Some day soon I will be totally changed and glorified when I finally meet Him fact to face. I have His Holy Spirit as a sign and seal against that day."

Any way - there certainly are cases where evangelicals have assumed that Orthodox and the like are not saved - but the cause of those wrong assumptions lays in many cases with a faulty construct by the Orthodox as to the basic "mechanics of salvation".

And of course, there are the clear cut cases where an Orthodox, R.C. or what have you will say pretty much right out that no one is "saved" now but that they may be in the future if they tow the line.

Whether that kind of statement is said by works oriented Protestants (and there are as many of more of those preaching a works salvation in this forum as there are "traditional sacramental" types) or Orthodox or Catholics - it is wrong and it amounts to a false gospel when all is said and done.

People of that stripe may well find themselves pointing to their good religious life and works to recommend their salvation when they meet the Lord and find themselves on the receiving end of "I never knew you".

I can't say for sure of course. I'm no one's final judge. I personally hope that everyone who names the name of Christ in any way will be saved in the end (even if their doctrine and or life hasn't been up to par like the so called cults). I have my doubts about that however because the scriptures seem to teach otherwise. In fact God Himself considers those who preach gospels of works such as adding the law to simple faith or changing their life to make the grade and enter Heaven "cursed".

That's a sobering thought when I consider just how many I've encountered here in the forum who do just that.

Some folks can't seem to understand why I or any other evangelical would want to preach the basic gospel to someone like a bishop or the pope. IMO it's probably that they haven't been paying attention or simply misunderstand the issues (or perhaps even have made the same fatefull mistake concerning the tenses of salvation that I have been talking about here).

 

[dzheremi]

Honest question here, Genez, just because I'm curious about how this is actually supposed to work: Do you think you'll be like Joshua and Caleb in that story, or do you think you'll be like the others who did not make it? And if so, why?

To me invoking this kind of soteriological outlook and generalizing it onto the Church is a bit like how a lot of people will amuse themselves by talking about how they would survive a zombie apocalypse: I'd do this, then I'd do that; or if this happened, I would just go here and then I'd be home free or something like that. Statistically speaking, no you wouldn't. If 99.9% of people succumb to the virus (or whatever it is that is making people zombies), what are the chances that you would be among the 0.1% who do not? Because you have a plan? What about all the other people who also have/had a plan? You can't all make it. The math says no. Understandably, most people want to see themselves as the protagonist of their own heroic journey, rather than just some guy/gal, but what makes Christianity so revolutionary in the context of other world religions is that being just some guy/gal is elevated by the fact that our Lord was incarnate as 'just some guy' on purpose, of His own will, to save and transform us and the whole creation. Whereas in a religion like Judaism or Zoroastrianism or the Druze faith, there is a big division between the layperson and the clergy or another religious class who mediate between God and man in the performance of their duties, in traditional Christianity, the priest or the bishop or the whoever are not mediators (we have but one mediator, Jesus Christ; 1 Timothy 2:5), but intercessors, bringing our prayers before the altar of God at which they serve so that we may be joined together in corporate worship (Matthew 18:20, as you've cited), keeping the function of the Temple priest in the sense of acting on behalf of the gathered people, but radically changing the associated content, as it is no longer the sacrifice of the dove or some other sacrificial animal that is to be placed upon the altar, but our prayers themselves, symbolized in Eastern Christianity (and I'm sure Western too, to the extent that it is still used) by the incense which is carried in the censer throughout the liturgy.

As an assembled people, while we must always be careful concerning our own piety (read: our mistakes are our own, each one specific to each individual), we no longer worry "Will we be like Caleb or Joshua, or like the others?" according to the old way of the world before our Lord's coming, because we are happy to be as workers in the Lord's vineyard at the eleventh hour, recognizing that it is later than we think, but also trusting in our Lord's mercy that He will complete the work that He has begun within us. As a wise man who was certainly full of the Holy Spirit (Abba Anthony, the Father of the Monks) once said, "Our life and our death are with our brothers". It is not about "Will I be in a better place than others, because I have understood what others have not?", it is about "How can we get there together?", and the answer is always (and only ever) through Christ our God, Who is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.

This is Christianity:

The patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament, may their names be exalted in our prayers before the one God, were righteous and faithful men, but we follow a new way of being precisely because we know that the One Whom they waited for has come. If we can glory in knowing anything, it can only be that: that Christ has come, and was crucified for us, and by His cross has put to death sin and death itself, and is risen on the third day, and will raise us up likewise on the last day. This is not according to our knowledge or even particularly our faithfulness (all will be resurrected to judgment, both the good and the evil), but according to His promise. Thus we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

That is the traditional Christian reply you're likely to get from 'religious' people like me and the other ~90 million people in my communion of churches, anyway. I am curious as to what might be wrong about it or missing from it, in your view, as I do not think it can be so easily dismissed on account of the fact that religious people believe it (as it's not something that any of us originated to begin with; this is the consensus of 2,000 years of lived religious life and the experience that comes with it). If you have a better way than this, then what exactly makes it better? I do not see anything missing from Orthodoxy on this account of any other, but then I only have the perspective that I have. (Though I was raised Protestant, and was Catholic throughout most of my 20s, and am now an Orthodox Christian in the Oriental Orthodox communion, so I've been basically everywhere except Eastern Orthodoxy, and even then I have been to their churches and attended their Vespers and other non-Eucharistic prayers.)

 

[SPF]

Its sad how so many believers keep failing to see that we must be filled with the Spirit to see how blind we have been

Thankfully every person is equally filled and sealed by the Holy Spirit when they come into a relationship with Christ.

 

[☦Marius☦]

God did not. That is why Jesus hated the religious leaders who had set up such a system. Jesus mocked the repetitiveness syndrome that the religious leaders thrived in. Matthew 6:7



God was only strict about certain things. Would you not be strict with your kids about drugs when a lot of your neighbor's kids use them?

Correction, Christ taught against the VAIN repetitions of the Pharisees, not the repetitions. Otherwise he wouldn't have founded his own formula for prayer.

I almost gave your post an "agree" because I do agree with a great deal of what you say about emotion vs. thoughtful prayer and worship. But in the end I just had to settle on giving a "like" instead.

I totally agree that "salvation" in the total sense of the word includes being conformed to the image of God's Son. (Although I'd quibble a bit when it comes to saying we are becoming a "Christ". Likewise a bit with the idea of "becoming a son of God".)

Which is one reason I can't seem to agree with Orthodoxy even though it has much to offer. Most Orthodox Christians stress the concept of what Protestants call "sanctification" (becoming like Him) to the point where they ignore the fact that our saved status is usually presented in the past tense.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Roman's 8:12-25
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Revelation 21:7
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

John 3:24
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Revelation 3:21
The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Its sad how so many believers keep failing to see that we must be filled with the Spirit to see how blind we have been. Its not about joining some organization, and then trying another. Its about standing still and allowing God to correct us all.. For each one of us is wrong until we discover the corrections needed. Pride rebuffs. Wisdom knows when a correction is from God. Pride seeks religion instead. For its something that they can grasp with their human mind....And, do it.

Calling everyone who disagrees with you proud is the definition of pride.

Orthodoxy doesn't even attempt to fully explain or define God. We don't claim to give every answer because we accept many things as holy mysteries. Whereas protestant theologians have so overdefined God that many of their concepts utterly confuse people.

Most people join Orthodoxy and stay for life. They don't drift from Church to Church like protestants. Odd you are attributing protestant attributes to quite the opposite. Many of those mechanical religious people you keep criticizing are patiently, quietly waiting on God.

 

[GenemZ]

Calling everyone who disagrees with you proud is the definition of pride.

That's how you'd like to see it.

For it would make you feel easily justified in not having to budge.

Everyone who disagrees with me is not proud.

I have been corrected over the years, and appreciated it.

 

[His student]

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Roman's 8:12-25
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Revelation 21:7
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

John 3:24
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Revelation 3:21
The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

All of those scripture quotation are unneeded in my case.

I said, "I'd quibble a bit when it comes to saying we are becoming a "Christ". Likewise a bit with the idea of "becoming a son of God".

Becoming a "Christ" entails becoming another Messiah something that simply won't happen.

My problem with saying only that we are "becoming" sons of God was well outlined by me as I went along in my post. E.G . "NOW" we are the sons of God" "He has "SAVED" us etc. not just "becoming".

There was a reason that I used the term "quibble a bit with" and not the term "take complete exception to".

Perhaps you didn't read my entire post before posting to see why I would quibble with only saying we are "becoming" sons and not mentioning the fact that we who are truly born again "are sons of God" even now.

Hopefully this is not another illustration of why evangelicals sometimes accuse Orthodox of teaching that they are earning their salvation by their good works as it were. They purposefully leave out our current status (or at least the status of the evangelicals who have apprehended a justified status even now) - perhaps, dare I say it, because they themselves have not yet fully trusted the work of the Lord as their only hope of salvation and been born again through that faith.

The fact that that could be the case would be the exact reason that I would preach the gospel in it's simplest form to, say, a bishop and invite him to get "saved".

I.e. - if a person skips "salvation tense" number 1 in my post (as many do) and tries to enter the Kingdom through salvation tense number 2 only - he will not achieve salvation tense number 3 in the end because the Lord will have never known Him when they meet face to face.

The Lord gets to know a person only when he has been personally drawn to the Son by the Father and had his heart opened in a personal way by the Holy Spirit in order to believe and be justified through faith.

Again - quoting those scriptures was not necessary. I agree totally with them of course and have said as much. (See point number 2 under salvation tenses in my post.)

 

[GenemZ]

Thankfully every person is equally filled and sealed by the Holy Spirit when they come into a relationship with Christ.

At the moment of salvation all believers are sealed and filled while the Holy Spirit takes up His permanent residence in our temple.

We can neglect being filled. But, always remain indwelled. Its why we are warned not to grieve or quench the Spirit. Indwelling = He will never leave us nor forsake us.

But, the Spirit must stop controlling us when we sin. He can not be one with sin! To recover we must utilize 1 John 1:9 in order to restart the filling.

He never leaves, but He does not always control. The Spirit can not be one with our experience when sin.

After salvation takes place we can stop being filled with the Spirit. That is why believers were commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] "Also, stop becoming intoxicated by
means of wine,[/FONT] which leads to debauchery.
Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Eph 5:18
​

We are never commanded to be indwelled by the Spirit which takes place the moment a person truly believes in Christ and stays forever!

To restore the filling of the Spirit after we know we have sinned? ... Simply acknowledge your sin to God alone. Wherever you are. Just name it. He hears you. And instantly forgives as the Spirit once more fill and takes controls in leading you.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]If we acknowledge/cite/admit/confess (homologeo)
our sins He (God) is faithful/consistent and just . .
so that He forgives us our sins and also purifies us
from all unrighteousness." (1 Jn 1:9)[/FONT]​

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This might be the most important doctrine for a believer to understand after salvation. Its how we are able to keep walking in the Spirit after we have sinned.


The Greek word Homologeo was used as a courtroom term... it means to "state your case" as they did in a courtroom setting. There is no emotion required nor indicated in this Greek word. How you feel about your sin is not the issue. Acknowledging the sin is what counts to God.

In the church age you are now your own priest. So, we are to name our own sins directly to God.
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[☦Marius☦]

All of those scripture quotation are unneeded in my case.

I said, "I'd quibble a bit when it comes to saying we are becoming a "Christ". Likewise a bit with the idea of "becoming a son of God".

Becoming a "Christ" entails becoming another Messiah something that simply won't happen.

My problem with saying only that we are "becoming" sons of God was well outlined by me as I went along in my post. E.G . "NOW" we are the sons of God" "He has "SAVED" us etc. not just "becoming".

There was a reason that I used the term "quibble a bit with" and not the term "take complete exception to".

Perhaps you didn't read my entire post before posting to see why I would quibble with only saying we are "becoming" sons and not mentioning the fact that we who are truly born again "are sons of God" even now.

Hopefully this is not another illustration of why evangelicals sometimes accuse Orthodox of teaching that they are earning their salvation by their good works as it were. They purposefully leave out our current status (or at least the status of the evangelicals who have apprehended a justified status even now) - perhaps, dare I say it, because they themselves have not yet fully trusted the work of the Lord as their only hope of salvation and been born again through that faith.

The fact that that could be the case would be the exact reason that I would preach the gospel in it's simplest form to, say, a bishop and invite him to get "saved".

I.e. - if a person skips "salvation tense" number 1 in my post (as many do) and tries to enter the Kingdom through salvation tense number 2 only - he will not achieve salvation tense number 3 in the end because the Lord will have never known Him when they meet face to face.

The Lord gets to know a person only when he has been personally drawn to the Son by the Father and had his heart opened in a personal way by the Holy Spirit in order to believe and be justified through faith.

Again - quoting those scriptures was not necessary. I agree totally with them of course and have said as much. (See point number 2 under salvation tenses in my post.)

It's not that we believe a person has to earn their salvation, it's that we don't believe in once saved always saved (because it is unbiblical). So therefore we would say we are being saved actively rather then just saying we are saved. But there is certainly a journey, a race we must run. The epistles are clear that the reward is for those who complete the race, and that many will fall away. Works are important because they stimulate the faith required to be saved. We are all sons of God as Christians, but obviously the concept of theosis or deification in the end is very specific to certain churches--us included.