The real purpose of water baptism in the NT

[Contenders Edge]

Like I said, the motivation for doing good is important to me. So long as your motivation is correct, yes, aim for the sky.

But if your motivation is wrong, it will be burnt up.

It sounds like you are beginning to understand.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That will be a No then, since Romans 3:23 is different from Matthew 5:19.

You don't believe that our failing to obey the commandments of God has anything to do with Matthew 5:19?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

You don't believe that our failing to obey the commandments of God has anything to do with Matthew 5:19?

-CryptoLutheran

Whenever Paul refers to sin in the book of Romans, he almost always refers to it as a noun and not a verb. There are only a few exceptions.

Romans 3:23 sin is a noun, if you want to understand what Paul meant by the term sin, he explains it in Romans 5:12-19

 

[ViaCrucis]

Whenever Paul refers to sin in the book of Romans, he almost always refers to it as a noun and not a verb. There are only a few exceptions.

Romans 3:23 sin is a noun, if you want to understand what Paul meant by the term sin, he explains it in Romans 5:12-19

I'm not picking up what you're trying to lay down here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

I'm not picking up what you're trying to lay down here.

-CryptoLutheran

You are not a sinner (noun) because you sin (verb), you sin because you are a sinner. You are a sinner because of what Adam did.

Thus, it’s not disobeying Matt 5:19 that results in romans 3:23. You are in romans 3 23 because of what Adam did.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are not a sinner (noun) because you sin (verb), you sin because you are a sinner. You are a sinner because of what Adam did.

Thus, it’s not disobeying Matt 5:19 that results in romans 3:23. You are in romans 3 23 because of what Adam did.

I agree with basically all of that. However it would seem to me that the reason human beings don't obey God--they sin--is because they are sinners. Hence Christ's harsh rebuke to those who would lead others away from obeying God's command.

-CrytoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

I agree with basically all of that. However it would seem to me that the reason human beings don't obey God--they sin--is because they are sinners. Hence Christ's harsh rebuke to those who would lead others away from obeying God's command.

-CrytoLutheran

If it was Adam's sinful nature that we inherited that cause us to fall short of the glory of God, then there is nothing we can do on our own to get right with God. Thus that Matt 5 passage have little in common with Romans 3:23

 

[Jonaitis]

John 1:31 NLT, John explained the purpose of him baptizing the Jews with water.

I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel.”

Can I conclude that, in the 4 Gospels as well as early Acts, water baptism was required for the Jews to be saved under the gospel of the kingdom?

But now, Gentiles are saved by faith only, under the gospel of grace? Water baptism is no longer required for anything?

John's baptism was different than the Christian baptism that has been ordained until the end of the age.

John's was to prepare the hearts of the Jews for the arrival of Jesus Christ and reveal him to Israel, it did not save them.

 

[Guojing]

John's baptism was different than the Christian baptism that has been ordained until the end of the age.

John's was to prepare the hearts of the Jews for the arrival of Jesus Christ and reveal him to Israel, it did not save them.

I agree with you John's baptism is not sufficient to save anyone.

My point is that it was necessary for salvation during the 4 Gospels. If one believes in Jesus but choose not to be water baptized, he still won't be saved.

 

[Jonaitis]

I agree with you John's baptism is not sufficient to save anyone.

My point is that it was necessary for salvation during the 4 Gospels. If one believes in Jesus but choose not to be water baptized, he still won't be saved.

Well, that sounds as if you're saying that the sole work of Christ is insufficient to save.

 

[Guojing]

Well, that sounds as if you're saying that the sole work of Christ is insufficient to save.

Christ has not died yet, so the work was not completed. They could not put their faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

 

[Jonaitis]

Christ has not died yet, so the work was not completed. They could not put their faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

Actually, people were saved retrospectively by virtue of the promises made about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection in the OT (including the Gospel accounts). Those who placed their faith in the person and work of the Promised Messiah were as much saved, enjoying as much of the benefits of redemption, as we do today. The main difference between us and them is that those promises now are realized in Jesus Christ with its fullest revelation.

 

[Guojing]

Actually, people were saved retrospectively by virtue of the promises made about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection in the OT (including the Gospel accounts). Those who placed their faith in the person and work of the Promised Messiah were as much saved, enjoying as much of the benefits of redemption, as we do today. The main difference between us and them is that those promises now are realized in Jesus Christ with its fullest revelation.

In the 4 Gospels, Jews were saved because they put their faith in Jesus as the Son of God and their promised Messiah. (John 20:31)

They had to also get water baptized (Luke 7:29-30, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) and follow the Law. (Matt 5:19)

This is called the "Gospel of the Kingdom".

As for us Gentiles then, we were totally excluded from that and had no hope at all during the 4 Gospels Ephesians 2:11-12

 

[ViaCrucis]

If it was Adam's sinful nature that we inherited that cause us to fall short of the glory of God, then there is nothing we can do on our own to get right with God. Thus that Matt 5 passage have little in common with Romans 3:23

What do you think the Matthew 5 passage means and is relevant for?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

What do you think the Matthew 5 passage means and is relevant for?

-CryptoLutheran

Like the book of Matthew, it was meant for the Jews and under the Gospel of the Kingdom, they had to obey the Law in order to be saved.

But for us Gentiles, we are now, together with the Jews now, under the Gospel of Grace given to Paul by the ascended Christ.

So Romans 5:12-19, together with 1 Cor 15, tells us how we are to be saved.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Like the book of Matthew, it was meant for the Jews and under the Gospel of the Kingdom, they had to obey the Law in order to be saved.

But for us Gentiles, we are now, together with the Jews now, under the Gospel of Grace given to Paul by the ascended Christ.

So Romans 5:12-19, together with 1 Cor 15, tells us how we are to be saved.

This seems diametrically at odds with your last two posts to me about how we are sinful sinners that sin.

So which is it, can sinners save themselves by being obedient to the Law or no?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

This seems diametrically at odds with your last two posts to me about how we are sinful sinners that sin.

So which is it, can sinners save themselves by being obedient to the Law or no?

-CryptoLutheran

If you are talking about the Gospel of the Kingdom, they had to sacrifice a lamb offering to cover their sins. But it does not exempt them from trying to keep the law.

Salvation then was based on "belonging to the Jewish Nation". Any Jew who does not follow the commandments will be cut off from the nation, and will lose their salvation. Genesis 17:14

No Jew could tell the priests then, "I am saved by grace thru faith apart from works". He will immediately be cut off. =)

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you are talking about the Gospel of the Kingdom, they had to sacrifice a lamb offering to cover their sins. But it does not exempt them from trying to keep the law.

Salvation then was based on "belonging to the Jewish Nation". Any Jew who does not follow the commandments will be cut off from the nation, and will lose their salvation. Genesis 17:14

No Jew could tell the priests then, "I am saved by grace thru faith apart from works". He will immediately be cut off. =)

There's only one Gospel, the Gospel of our salvation, the Gospel of God's kingdom which has come through the crucified and risen Jesus Christ and consists of our redemption and ultimately the redemption of all things.

No Jew was ever saved by observing Torah. Salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

There's only one Gospel, the Gospel of our salvation, the Gospel of God's kingdom which has come through the crucified and risen Jesus Christ and consists of our redemption and ultimately the redemption of all things.

No Jew was ever saved by observing Torah. Salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay you interpret the Bible based on Covenant Theology so its understandable you will hold that belief. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay you interpret the Bible based on Covenant Theology so its understandable you will hold that belief. Thanks for sharing.

If you believe otherwise, then you need to explain how you can say there is more than one Gospel, when Scripture says that there's only one Gospel (Galatians 1:8). And if you want to argue that the kingdom was preached only to the Jews, you also need to explain why St. Paul was there in Rome under house arrest, preaching the kingdom of God (Acts 28:30-31).

The errors in Dispensationalism are myriad. Calling what I'm talking about "Covenant Theology" seems needless to me, call it what it is: Christian theology.

-CryptoLutheran